#1: A treatise on arguing in the game of mafia:

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#1: A treatise on arguing in the game of mafia:

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:39 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

This is the first article in the series, part two can be found here:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 41#2173041

Introduction

This article is motivated by several things. First and foremost, it stems from my personal experience as a debater and a mafia player for three years. I have learned first hand how to argue, and how not to argue. Second, it is motivated by several years of playing and reading games, and getting extremely frustrated by the fact that people just don’t know how to argue, or what they should be trying to accomplish when they enter into an argument with other players. For the most part, I really just would like to see players get better at these things, because it leads to more enjoyable games. Everything is selfish, right?

The article will be divided into two parts. First, I will address what is the purpose of arguing from both a scum perspective and a town perspective, as it is the starting point from which the rest of my advice flows. Secondly, I will break down the previous analysis in practical terms. That is, I will show what I think are the most ineffective arguing techniques and common pitfalls, and show you why they are outside of the purview of effectively playing the game of mafia.

Arguing Motivations

So what should you be trying to accomplish when you’re entering into dialogue with other players? Obviously, this depends on your motivations in doing so, which depends almost completely on your role PM. It is the assumption of this article that scum players and town players enter into arguments for completely different reasons (such is the whole premise of the game)

From a town perspective

As a town player, there are what I describe as two different modes of operation in an argument. That is to say that I think that town players generally have two different reasons to argue with other players, and that this wildly changes the styles in which they argue.

The first mode is discovery. This is when town players enter into discussion and argument in order to figure out the alignment of other players. This represents the largest proportion of your arguments as a town player, because it is how you should be relating to most of the players in the game (on average 75% of them) This mode of argumentation should be geared towards evaluation. Basically that means that the player that wins the argument is not important. When arguing in this mode you should be trying to get two things out of it. First, you want to make the other player take stands on issues. Who do they think is scummy? Why? Who do they think is most likely to be scum at this point, what do they think about the argument that the other 3 players in the thread have been having the last 3 pages? The answers to these questions are important, and valuable for evaluating that player both in terms of the player itself, and in terms of interactions with other players later on. Second, you should be trying to evaluate the players thought process and arguing techniques that THEY are using. The underlying motivations of the other player can be easily apparent from looking at their arguing style. Is that player trying to win the argument? Are they trying to score points with other players? Are they trying to figure out what alignment you are? The answers to these questions, while subjective, are very valuable to reading that players alignment. The thought process of players you are arguing with is often your most valuable tool in order to figure out if they’re on your side or not. When a player appears to be arguing with you solely to make you look bad, or win the argument, then this should send up red alarm flags in your mind, because that is not how a town player, trying to read you, should act.

The second mode of argumentation style that should be used as townies occurs only about 25% of the time, and that is the convincing argument. This occurs when you believe that you are arguing against scum, based on their other interactions with players, and your own analysis of them based on the first mode of argumentation. In this mode, your job is not necessarily to interact with the actual player you’re arguing with at all, as his opinion of whether or not he is scum is probably not going to change. Instead, this form of argumentation is geared towards making other players in the thread agree with you. This is important, as you can have scum dead to rights in your own mind, but if you do not get other players to latch on, it will never result in a lynch. You should frequently reference, and ask other players in the thread to comment on parts of the argument, so as to draw players who are not paying attention as much as they should into the discussion. Distinct from the first form, in this form you WANT to win the argument. The difference is that winning is not determined by you and the other player, but rather by the other players in the game. You should be scoring points in this form of argumentation, but it is important to remember that you want to be comprehensive, and always earnest. If your opponent makes a point which is valid, don’t gloss over it or try to discredit it. In some ways this second mode is a subset of the first, because you do want to be open to discovery. If in the process of this mode you change your mind, admit that you have changed your mind. You want every point you score to be legitimate. Crap logic just makes you look like scum.

It is very important here to note that when you are arguing with other players, it is important to realize which mode of argumentation THEY are operating under. Convincing can often look like scum, especially if it is done wrong. By thinking in terms of “what is the other player attempting to do in this argument” you give yourself a huge leg up towards reading her motivations and therefore his alignment.

From a scum perspective

Scum come at arguing from a much different perspective. There aren’t so much modes for scum as there is one goal that is more important than any other: staying alive. That means your style of argumentation should mimic the town as much as it possibly can without harming your ability to fulfill your win condition. As with all facets of “playing scum” your job is to convince the town that you are town. A great way to do that is by actually scum hunting. It is the opinion of the author that town players will make enough mistakes, and by mistakes I mean plays that are contrary to their win condition, that you should be able to operate almost exactly as a townie should in terms of argumentative scumhunting. It is most important to note here, however, that this should not be set in stone. As a scum player, you want to leave yourself open the option of making plays which townies wouldn’t, if you think you can get away with them. If there is a town player that you can get lynched by pressuring them a little bit and getting them to explode, or a way to win through using crappy logic, then by all means you should go for it if it is not going to get you lynched. This is the delicate tight rope that scum enter into in a game of mafia. Every argument you make you should be asking yourself “Is this something that makes me look like scum, and if so, how likely is it that I am going to be called out on it.” A simple case of risk vs. reward helps you figure out these scenarios.

Practical arguing, or, what to avoid.

So now that we’ve got the motivations out of the way? How do we effectively argue? In this section I am going to go over some common problems with how players argue on this site, and show you why they don’t work.

First, arguing to win the argument. As we discussed in the previous section, a large percent of the time the player that wins the argument is irrelevant. When town players argue to score points and to win the argument, they are arguing exactly how scum has significant motivation to do. Take a step back, and make sure that you have your motivations firmly in mind when you’re arguing with another player. Are you trying to figure out what her alignment is? Then why do you care if she’s right about whether or not she voted a player later than she should have? As long as her thought process and motivation seem to be town to you, then attacking with the intent to beat her is 100% incoherent.

Second, arguing while you are angry or emotional. Mafia takes a lot of analytical and planning skills. These skills are adversely effected in a significant way when you argue when you are pissed off. Players are irrational when they’re angry, and therefore you should take a step back, and calm down before you write that next post. Remember clearly what you’re trying to accomplish, and you will realize that responding with anger and vitriol is ineffective a large large majority of the time.

Third, arguments from subjectivity have little to no place in the game. That is to say, your own subjective opinion is not effective for a) figuring out people alignment, OR convincing others that you are right. What do I mean by subjectivity, well lets look at a practical example. In gangland mafia, Kuribo states:
“No, pay attention to what I'm saying instead of trying to bully the town into seeing things your way:

SCAM said that scum would have no motivation for doing what she did. I counter that there are a myriad of reasons that pro-town players would see her action as scummy--- whether those reasons are right, wrong, or retarded doesn't make them any less valid in the minds of the people making the assertation. Otherwise, they would not see the action as scummy. Just because the two of you think any possible motivation would be stupid doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you.”
In this example kuribo fails to realize that his job isn’t to state that the assertion he is making is right to him, but rather than his job in this situation is to convince other players, namely vollkan, that SCAM is scum. By referencing his own subjective opinions, he creates a situation where we can never evaluate his position, because it is not one which is logically externally verifiable to us. Relativism has no place in the game of mafia.

I hope that this has been helpful, and I am really looking forward to some feedback on it.
Last edited by Thestatusquo on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:01 am

Post by Vi »

A++, would read again, would link to.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:17 am

Post by yabbaguy »

There's someone who agrees with me on the "level-headedness is pro-town" point.

One paragraph that might be worth adding to that is a further list of mistakes people make when arguing. Common things:

-people who turn on Mode 2 (convincing) and go after people too soon, and wind up tunnelvisioning.
-people who remain in Mode 1 (discovering) for an unnaturally long time, thus questioning their scumhunting.
-people who switch modes with great volatility or inconsistency.
-people who have turned on Mode 2 on too many/not enough people at a certain point in the game.

A further point about objective debates, especially theory debates, it's hard to win those most of the time. Often it ends in the stalemate of "you have your opinions and I have mine." Expecting scum will
crack
because of that is just downright ridiculous.

Well written, by the way. I love the debate aspect of Mafia more than anything else.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:21 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

yabbaguy wrote:There's someone who agrees with me on the "level-headedness is pro-town" point.

One paragraph that might be worth adding to that is a further list of mistakes people make when arguing. Common things:

-people who turn on Mode 2 (convincing) and go after people too soon, and wind up tunnelvisioning.
-people who remain in Mode 1 (discovering) for an unnaturally long time, thus questioning their scumhunting.
-people who switch modes with great volatility or inconsistency.
-people who have turned on Mode 2 on too many/not enough people at a certain point in the game.

A further point about objective debates, especially theory debates, it's hard to win those most of the time. Often it ends in the stalemate of "you have your opinions and I have mine." Expecting scum will
crack
because of that is just downright ridiculous.

Well written, by the way. I love the debate aspect of Mafia more than anything else.
Well, yeah.

1) I don't think levelheadedness is pro town, per se, but I would agree that generally, it is a good thing for town to be level headed when they post. Scum should as well. Basically, you gain nothing from posting when upset, and you lose a lot of your analytical and planning capabilities, and those are things all mafia players should want to hang on to.

2) I think that pretty much all 4 of those things can be lumped into one general catagory- It is important to know and recognize what you are attempting to do in any given argument. When you lose site of this, it leads to the things you mention. Focus, and attention to your goals is what's most important here, and I think those problems are symptoms of the larger problem of losing focus, rather than individual problems in and of themselves.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:13 pm

Post by Alduskkel »

Vi wrote:A++, would read again, would link to.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:30 pm

Post by Pomegranate »

Alduskkel wrote:
Vi wrote:A++, would read again, would link to.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:29 pm

Post by Xylthixlm »

Vi wrote:
Alduskkel wrote:
Pomegranate wrote:
RayFrost wrote:A++, would read again, would link to.
#mafia@irc.globalgamers.net

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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by mith »

No quote pyramids, please. (Really can't wait for phpbb3, there's a limit to quote pyramid depth that's native.)

Agree, though, good article.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:35 pm

Post by RayFrost »

It was a joke, mith. >.>
don't you feel silly now?
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:55 pm

Post by dramonic »

very nice article. Should get wikied.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:03 pm

Post by Sotty7 »

An interesting read. Thanks for posting.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:32 pm

Post by hasdgfas »

I think the fact that people are arguing to figure out motivations is lost on a lot of people. I know that I personally ask a lot of questions and such to do that very thing, and people have no idea why.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:52 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

There are situations where it's the right move for a townie to be in "convincing mode" in order to convince the other person, and the rest of the town, that they actually are town; this is somewhat different from "convincing the town the person you are debating with is scum". If you are doing this, it's important to not attack the other person just because he's attacking you; that restriction can make it harder to debate, but if you honestly think that the person attacking you is likely to be town (and you need to think about this in as calm and logical a way as you possibly can), then you need to defend yourself and try to disprove with his arguments against you without actually attacking either his alignment or attacking him personally.

Anyway, I really like the essay, shea.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:56 pm

Post by Vi »

On line with the cow, I've been accused of asking too many questions before, and I've heard it called a scumtell but I've never quite understood why.
Clearly everything I do is a Town-tell - if not, you need to adjust your concept of the game


One of the most common pitfalls in Mafia is trying to convince scum they are scum. I'm very glad you made mention of that here.

Also, I agree with Yos2. Very much so.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:03 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Vi wrote: One of the most common pitfalls in Mafia is trying to convince scum they are scum.
I've had that work before. :lol:
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Post by Vi »

Yosarian2 wrote:
Vi wrote:One of the most common pitfalls in Mafia is trying to convince scum they are scum.
I've had that work before. :lol:
In my first game (as Town) I almost convinced myself I was scum :?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:40 pm

Post by Simenon »

Arguing incessantly can be like cracking a nut: the pressure from having to engage with another player for pages can eventually allow an observer to step back and see what's inside the shell. A player with a scum alignment loses control over the argument differently than a player with a town alignment; part of the skill in mafia is being able to read both the arguments from a sound mind and the arguments from a mind under pressure.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:22 pm

Post by Xylthixlm »

Yosarian2 wrote:There are situations where it's the right move for a townie to be in "convincing mode" in order to convince the other person, and the rest of the town, that they actually are town; this is somewhat different from "convincing the town the person you are debating with is scum". If you are doing this, it's important to not attack the other person just because he's attacking you; that restriction can make it harder to debate, but if you honestly think that the person attacking you is likely to be town (and you need to think about this in as calm and logical a way as you possibly can), then you need to defend yourself and try to disprove with his arguments against you without actually attacking either his alignment or attacking him personally.
Usually if
I
do this the person I'm arguing with ends up more convinced I'm scum.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:35 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Xylthixlm wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:There are situations where it's the right move for a townie to be in "convincing mode" in order to convince the other person, and the rest of the town, that they actually are town; this is somewhat different from "convincing the town the person you are debating with is scum". If you are doing this, it's important to not attack the other person just because he's attacking you; that restriction can make it harder to debate, but if you honestly think that the person attacking you is likely to be town (and you need to think about this in as calm and logical a way as you possibly can), then you need to defend yourself and try to disprove with his arguments against you without actually attacking either his alignment or attacking him personally.
Usually if
I
do this the person I'm arguing with ends up more convinced I'm scum.
(shrug) Sometimes that happens. You can sometimes convince the person you're arguing with that you're town, if they are open minded and fair, but it's hard. More important in those situations is to convince the rest of the people in the game that the case against you is weak or incorrect.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:50 am

Post by Goatrevolt »

Great post. A worthwhile read for players of all skill levels.
Yosarian2 wrote:There are situations where it's the right move for a townie to be in "convincing mode" in order to convince the other person, and the rest of the town, that they actually are town; this is somewhat different from "convincing the town the person you are debating with is scum". If you are doing this, it's important to not attack the other person just because he's attacking you; that restriction can make it harder to debate, but if you honestly think that the person attacking you is likely to be town (and you need to think about this in as calm and logical a way as you possibly can), then you need to defend yourself and try to disprove with his arguments against you without actually attacking either his alignment or attacking him personally.
I agree here.
Vi wrote:On line with the cow, I've been accused of asking too many questions before, and I've heard it called a scumtell but I've never quite understood why.
I consider asking a lot of questions but a lack of real analysis or stances taken based on the asking of those questions to be a scum tell.
Vi wrote:One of the most common pitfalls in Mafia is trying to convince scum they are scum.
I sometimes try to "convince" scum that they are scum. "Are you sure you're not scum? Cause right here it looks like you are. I mean, that's exactly what scum would do in that situation." I like it as a sarcastic tool to use for the purpose of convincing the rest of the town that someone is scum.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:56 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

Right, but you're not trying to convince the scum itself that he's scum, you're just opperating in mode two, and using it as a tool to convince others.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:14 pm

Post by Thesp »

This is absolutely awesome - I find particularly notable the point that one should be arguing and posting for
purpose
, and not just to post.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:31 pm

Post by YamiJoey »

"Crap logic just makes you look like scum."

Q4E

I did like this; but you could shorten one paragraph to "Act like a Townie with all your posts; only pretend you don't know other mafia members." xD

Was good, though.

What are your views on Cop and Doc roles? How are they most effectively used in your opinion? I'm asking because I've had three Mafia games recently where the Cop has come forward early. Twice because they found Scum, and once because they didn't get a read. (And it turned out that the player was Town but had a limiting ability that forced Cops to get "It doesn't work on this person." in order to compensate for another, more positive ability.)

IMO Cops should stay lower than they do when I play. If you find scum; you should indicate it by analysing their posts and trying to get a regular lynch first. When someone with an information role dies and it is revealed they were Cop, Watcher, Stalker, broken character with "The following are Mafia: _____" I try to go back and work out if they would've posted their finidings in some way.

One play I often try to make is to HoS any Townies I find in my Scans. They are unfounded; but I usually get away with it with simple posts like "Somehow they just seem a little off. I don't know why.". I do this without information roles too, but when I die by a lucky Mafia hit, good arguments tend to pop up out of no-where.

If I get to a point where I feel like I can safely do so (not many people left to scan or Mafia are outnumbering us rapidly, and there's a doc still alive) then I will often just post a list of "Mafia are ___; Townie are ____" Trust me. Kill me if I'm wrong.

I'd also like to note that I use that last tactic a lot when I'm Mafia and we simply need to gain that 3-1 kill in order to drag us ever closer to the win. It allows me to either have someone scream "HE LIES! I R COP!" and we kill a Cop (because they're thick) and because people will have fun analysing how I picked my list, and who is unlisted and why. Makes the game spicy, and I'll've discussed with Mafia friends how we'll be doing it so that they don't just go "Wait; what? Why did I just get sold out!?! o.O"

So yeah; just wanted your oppinion on power roles such as Cop, Doc and how Masons should go about their lives.

YJ
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:04 am

Post by Thestatusquo »

I'm going to turn this into a weekly thing, I think. I really enjoyed writing it, so maybe I'll do some sort of discussion on my opinions on power roles later on.


"Act like a Townie with all your posts; only pretend you don't know other mafia members.""

This is probably exactly what I'm NOT saying. A huge thing to note for scum is that they SHOULD be making anti town plays. The point is that they should ask themselves before they make them if they are likely to be lynched for it. Risk vs. Reward is important here.
tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner
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Goatrevolt
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Goatrevolt
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:03 am

Post by Goatrevolt »

Thestatusquo wrote:This is probably exactly what I'm NOT saying. A huge thing to note for scum is that they SHOULD be making anti town plays. The point is that they should ask themselves before they make them if they are likely to be lynched for it. Risk vs. Reward is important here.
I agree. If you can get away with making anti-town plays, there is absolutely no reason not to make them as scum.
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