Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

My general feel of this game was that me and meji had it in the bag until a wave of replacements came in and changed everything.

Argh! *Shakes fist.*

[Starbuck]

I know the one big thing that went wrong for me was my V/LA. Not that I could control the fact that my great grandmother passed away and my access was extremely limited for all of this week until today. I was in the middle of making a post in notepad on Kyiv in hopes I could swing the lynch when the hammer came down.

hohum's constant in and out as the mod didn't help.

Also, my main issue with hohum was that when I replaced in, the role PM that I was given was rather confusing. We had a pretty big issue and it was like he didn't even care. The issue was that he wanted Zach to send the kill and me to send the RB, but this was not stated in the Role PM. I replace into quite a number of Newbie games and this was the first one that I ever had any issue. Then once Zach died, I had to choose. In my eyes, we are playing mafia and the mafia kill is part of being scum, so that if the goon dies, the RB should not have to choose but should be able to do both.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

My only real complaint with this game was the restrictions placed on the roleblocker role.

They weren't allowed to roleblock AND kill, which I was under the impression was standard for newbie games. (

It should be anyway

.)

Why? Mods are allowed to pick either scenario, as long as they specify which is the one they're using.

I've not heard anyone voice any problem with doing things this way before this game. I'm curious what your take is.

[Zachrulez]

I know the one big thing that went wrong for me was my V/LA. Not that I could control the fact that my great grandmother passed away and my access was extremely limited for all of this week until today. I was in the middle of making a post in notepad on Kyiv in hopes I could swing the lynch when the hammer came down.

hohum's constant in and out as the mod didn't help.

Also, my main issue with hohum was that when I replaced in, the role PM that I was given was rather confusing. We had a pretty big issue and it was like he didn't even care. The issue was that he wanted Zach to send the kill and me to send the RB, but this was not stated in the Role PM. I replace into quite a number of Newbie games and this was the first one that I ever had any issue. Then once Zach died, I had to choose. In my eyes, we are playing mafia and the mafia kill is part of being scum, so that if the goon dies, the RB should not have to choose but should be able to do both.

Yeah, I was actually quite angry to realize that there was no kill on night 3, there was no reason that should have been allowed to happen. (Even though we were probably going to lose anyway.)

[Starbuck]

It makes things overpowered once the goon is dead.

We still had the doctor and the cop still alive.

[Starbuck]

The only night that scum got a kill was N2.

I blocked Tubby/Mr. Finch last night because he said he was going to investigate me.

[Zachrulez]

It makes things overpowered once the goon is dead.

We still had the doctor and the cop still alive.

This.

It was demonstrated on night 3 with Starbuck's dilemma and it made even worse if the goon is lynched sooner with both power roles alive.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not opposed to the idea of the GOON being punished like that if the rber is lynched, but it just seems wrong the other way around.

To craft your strategy toward the rber's preservation for that problem to creep up, is just frustrating.

[Zachrulez]

Basically, I don't think the 2 power role setup is balanced unless the rber is allowed to both block and kill.

The scumteam is well crippled with ANY mafia lynch.

[Zachrulez]

BTW, what did your role pm say Starbuck?

[Starbuck]

And needless to say when I brought up the situations I had with the game to hohum, it was like he didn't want to help at all. That's why I was saying that there probably needs to be a standard (at least with this setup) that the RBer be able to do both.

[Zachrulez]

Also, has this situation ever occurred before? This could be a topic for MD, but I'm not sure if it's ever come up before.

[Sanjay]

Hey everyone!

Sanjay here. You may not know me but for a few glorious hours, I was your cop.

When I saw this game in the Newbie Queue, I briefly scanned it and noticed that I would be replacing in for someone claiming a guilty on Zachrulez. Now, I hold Zach in extremely high regard as a player, and I figured the situation was either:

1) I would get to go head to head against Zach as players with different alignments, which I would really enjoy.
or
2) Zach and tubby were trying to pull a fast one on the town, which I would really enjoy.

So I replaced in immediately. I was so excited.

Unfortunately, when I read the thread, I noticed that things were already pretty well in hand for the town and there would be no epic Zach-Sanjay showdown. The way the votes went down meant Zach was pretty much toast, and not only that, Starbuck had kind of betrayed herself with her instant acceptance of the cop claim.

Kind of a let down, but hey, I still would get to secure an easy win out of it, right?

Unfortunately not. After posting a lengthy post about who the scumteam was and why, hohum accidentally posted the lynch scene for Zachrulez, revealing him to be a Mafia Goon. I saw it. Deadline hadn't arrived and Zach hadn't been hammered, so though I knew Zach was guilty based on my cop investigation, I was now privileged to information I shouldn't know: that Zach was not a roleblocker. I had to be replaced out. hohum even deleted my lengthy post too.

Sorry I didn't get to play with you guys. Good game everyone.

By the way, I absolutely agree with Zach and Starbuck about the roleblocker. That kinda sucked.

[Starbuck]

I can replace as an IC or SE for you.

Do you have more than one game going right now?

Thank you for replacing! If I ever need the favor returned please don't hesitate to ask.

You are a Mafia Roleblocker, along with your partner Zeebee (who is simply a Goon). Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live; if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other).

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no night actions will take place until Night One. For your convenience I have set up the following Quick Topic Thread which you may optionally use to communicate at night with your partner


Please confirm in thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12332

[Starbuck]

The issue with the PM was that I sent him both the actions when me and Zach were both alive, and he told me that he could only take one action from me. That's what bothered me first, because we were both alive. You can see the QT and see that we agreed upon the actions, but he wanted Zach to PM him as well. It just didn't make sense.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I saw that in the opening post.

Basically said you could do both, but you had to chose between roleblock and kill if only you were alive.

But yeah, the wording was a tad confusing.

[Zachrulez]

The issue with the PM was that I sent him both the actions when me and Zach were both alive, and he told me that he could only take one action from me. That's what bothered me first, because we were both alive. You can see the QT and see that we agreed upon the actions, but he wanted Zach to PM him as well. It just didn't make sense.

And he posted the night scene before the deadline was up, and I was able to come on and resolve the issue...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I was mad about that too.

[Starbuck]

I did start fighting for the ability to do both actions, but hohum just linked me to this post of VRK's. That was his only response to me on that.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, that was unfortunate Sanjay, I was wondering why you never posted.

[Starbuck]

The issue with the PM was that I sent him both the actions when me and Zach were both alive, and he told me that he could only take one action from me. That's what bothered me first, because we were both alive. You can see the QT and see that we agreed upon the actions, but he wanted Zach to PM him as well. It just didn't make sense.

And he posted the night scene before the deadline was up, and I was able to come on and resolve the issue...

That too, and I sent this all to VRK because I was in heavy PM mod with hohum because I wanted VRK in on what was going on.

I feel that he was a horrible mod for this game. He was barely here and then he didn't try to resolve anything, and as a mod for the Newbie Queue I find that to be very unsatisfactory.

[Starbuck]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75#1831475

Kill: Ojanen
Block: Manho

You may only submit one action per night so I'm going to use your kill order as your valid night action.

Thanks.

Does Zach have to submit his own?

I figured it'd be easier with one PM since we are both alive.

Yes he does.

Was this made known prior to me replacing in? Because I've never seen a Newbie game done this way, and my Role PM does not state this in anyway:

I can replace as an IC or SE for you.

Do you have more than one game going right now?

Thank you for replacing! If I ever need the favor returned please don't hesitate to ask.

You are a Mafia Roleblocker, along with your partner Zeebee (who is simply a Goon). Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live; if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other).

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no night actions will take place until Night One. For your convenience I have set up the following Quick Topic Thread which you may optionally use to communicate at night with your partner


Please confirm in thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12332

Your role PM explicitly states that you may not submit two night actions, though it is worded in such a way that can be confusing. I'll make sure to reword the Role PM in the future.

Your

team

may do both if you live. (the bolded part implies that you must submit night actions as a team)

If only you survive you may do one or the other. (this implies that you only have one night action per night).

I've never seen a Newbie game done this way

It varies from mod to mod and game to game. We had a discussion about this in Newbie 818 after it ended and I wasn't swayed by the arguments.

My role PM does not state that I MAY NOT/CAN NOT submit both actions. It says the following:

"You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live; if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other). "

The team can do both. It does say "team", as you said, which implies a two person decision, which was made via the Quicktopic that you made and that you can check for validity. It DOES NOT state who has to submit the actions and that each person needs to submit a separate action. It's not right if Zach does not get back in time for deadline and our kill doesn't go through because the PM does NOT explicitly state that I can't submit both actions.

Also, having been re-reading. How can you make it so I have to choose either action if Zach dies? Roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole. There should be no reason why I have to choose between the two in a Newbie game.

I'm going to be bringing both of these issues up to VRK. All of this is not reflecting the F-11 setup as written.

[Starbuck]

The above is the full conversation that hohum and I had via PM.

[Zachrulez]

It's strange, because I played 2 or 3 other newbie games modded by hohum without incident.

It should probably be noted that all those games also lacked role blockers though.

[Starbuck]

It's strange, because I played 2 or 3 other newbie games modded by hohum without incident.

It should probably be noted that all those games also lacked role blockers though.

This was my first moderated by hohum and is definitely my last.