Mini 862 ~ Mafia of Order (Game Over!)

[Juls]

First, please note my signature. It is often very difficult if not impossible to get online on Monday's and Wednesday's due to school. This will be the case until December 9 (which this game will likely not last to due to short days).

Second,

Vote: Cobalt

. The mod provided fake claim is weird to me and Goat's logic makes sense that 3 mafia / 3 fake claims. I wouldn't put it past Vi though to do something like that. But for now I am leary.

[Goatrevolt]

I was being upfront about my own wagoning, not accusing him of it. I'm saying that I dont care I'm wagoning this early. Pretty scummy abstraction.

How is it scummy for me to misread something that wasn't very clear and I argue more likely to be taken the way I interpreted it over the way you meant it (especially considering Cobalt jumped on the same thing)? You'll have to be pretty slick to convince me of this one.

Cobalt has struck me as fairly pro-town thus far. I can see a pro-town role having a fake claim for a few reasons. How about we push Cobalt if we think he's scum for behavioral reasons, not page 2 gaming the mod? Cobalt making this claim means he is going to need to have two pro-town role claims. He's tied himself up pretty neatly if he's scum, and thus I find it less likely he is.

KMD: Even if you have infinite posts, I want you to convince me that VP was wasting posts and thus more likely to be scum.

[fuzzylightning]

At the end of this post, I will have 47 posts remaining.

I am not sure about how I feel about Cobalt, but I am leaning more towards town than anything. Although I don't like the mentioning of the fake claim, but the reasons why I don't like it are inherently WIFOM.

VP's actions seemed a bit hasty, especially with the quick revote of a "random vote." As has been pointed out by many, there are more pros than cons on the post count claiming.

Unvote

but as of right now, I am not sure where I want to place it.

[Vi]

I didn't realize that the Begnion Empire's affairs of state included murdering children in the street!

Vote Count:

Cobalt (L-3) ~ VP Baltar, SensFan, Juls, Kmd4390

VP Baltar (L-4) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, a cold starry night,

Kmd4390

Kmd4390 (L-5) ~ Goatrevolt, DTMaster
Juls (L-6) ~

Cobalt,

Sotty7
a cold starry night (L-6) ~ Cobalt

Locke Lamora (L-7) ~

fuzzylightning, DTMaster

Not Voting:

Goatrevolt, Juls, SensFan,

fuzzylightning

-Posts made that only include mod communication (i.e. votes) do not count and can be made regardless of how many posts you have remaining. (Think Silent Mafia.) See Rule 22/A.

-I copy/paste the post (not the code) into the word counter.

-@Goatrevolt: I slipped. Sorry v.v Even I'm not sure what I was trying to say with that one, so I removed it.

--With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, October 17 2009.

(9 days left)

Post Count:

a cold starry night - 2
Cobalt - 6
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 1
DTMaster - 2
fuzzylightning - 3
Goatrevolt - 2
Juls - 1
Kmd4390 - 4
Locke Lamora - 1
SensFan - 1
Sotty7 - 1
VP Baltar - 2

[Cobalt]

unvote, vote: juls

[DTMaster]

@KMD

Multipressuring people isn't scummy and is active scum hunting. Saying someone you think is scummy without follow up from the initial statement: "fuzzy is scummy" reads as: planting seeds of deception. With the whole post count limit I expected you to include a follow up scum hunting statement towards fuzzy when you responded to me. You didn't, why?

@Goat
In a sense, when Colbalt admitted he had a fake claim, it reads as: either extreme scum gambit or gambling pro-town. It makes his future claim(s) (if we get there) really come under attack by town because we would need to sift through the fake stuff to see if we have scum-Colbalt. Alerting us to this fact really negates the confusion and potential fake-claims have for scum-Colbalt.

A little WIFOM here but it does warrant keeping an eye on him.

@Colbalt
Your voting reminds me of BM almost. I assume you have something on Jus here or trying to get activity. Am I right here?

[VP Baltar]

You have no idea how much self control it takes to not say anything when an awful wagon builds on you.

Kmd-why did you say I was "wasting" my posts when there were people who had posted as much or more than me at that point? Also, you say you "don't see the benefit" to post cap claiming, but you do not seem to be trying to stop people from doing it. Why is that?

LL-I explained why I think revealing posts now is scummy, so why did you vote me by saying I had not? Also, why did you say I posted 3 times when I only posted twice?

starry night-do you have any original thoughts, or just "I agree" thoughts?

Sens speaks sense in his post.

How can you trust your gut on Cobalt when your original vote was first post and a seemingly random vote. Pre-game gut???

I wasn't voting him based on gut. Your question doesn't make any sense. Nor does vagueries such as this:

His play is ringing a bit fake, maybe too overeager

What is "overeager" about my play?

Cobalt, I don't understand why town would need a fakeclaim...though you claiming you have one doesn't seem like a scum move. Anyone else want to claim they have a fakeclaim?

Ftr, I still don't think claiming posts is a great idea at this time, but I'll do it in my next post if everyone else wants.

VP's actions seemed a bit hasty, especially with the quick revote of a "random vote." As has been pointed out by many, there are more pros than cons on the post count claiming.

This is vague nonsense. What was "hasty" about my actions? what was the scum motivation for me voting Cobalt? What do you see the pros and cons of claiming post caps?

[fuzzylightning]

@VP:
1. Post 1: Random vote on Cobalt while talking about getting a serious wagon right away
Post 2: Voting LL because others have
Post 3: Revoting Cobalt because she is "eager" to hear numbers and "trusting your gut" when you made no mention of your gut prior to that point.
To me, that all seemed a bit hasty.

2. A desire to not hear numbers could be scummy or town, all depending on what your number is, but seeing as its just a number and we are in Day 1, (a day where you admitted no one will run out of posts) why can't you just humor us and tell us a number.

3. Pros: we know how many posts each player has and can, with that information, try and discern if they are wasting their posts in trying to get arguments going, or whether they are genuinely scumhunting, b/c I feel that players may become more panicky as their number of posts dwindles.

Cons: Scum may lie (which is a con to everything involving mafia because scum have to lie about most things)

[Cobalt]

it seems reasonable to deduce that there are two scumteams. assuming there are no other townies with fake-claims, fake-claim abilities would fit best with a godfather role. additionally, I will be suspicious of someone who claims a fake-claim after me: could be GF trying to be town points
my vote on juls:

Second, Vote: Cobalt. The mod provided fake claim is weird to me and Goat's logic makes sense that 3 mafia / 3 fake claims. I wouldn't put it past Vi though to do something like that. But for now I am leary.

a poorly-reasoned bandwagon vote with wiggle room (look at that last sentence) in case she attracts attention for it. obvscum

[Cobalt]

actually forget it, looks like we have only 1 scumteam

[SensFan]

I have information that I think (confirmed as purposefully not certain) that there are 3 wincons.

[Goatrevolt]

How can you trust your gut on Cobalt when your original vote was first post and a seemingly random vote. Pre-game gut???

I wasn't voting him based on gut. Your question doesn't make any sense.

Ummmm....Then maybe you should take a bit of time to explain what you could have possibly meant with this:

You're eagerness to hear numbers is scummy. I knew i should have trusted my gut.

Unvote, Revote:Cobalt

I'd love to hear your explanation for the use of gut in that situation, if your vote apparently had nothing to do with gut?

Nor does vagueries such as this:

His play is ringing a bit fake, maybe too overeager

What is "overeager" about my play?

I would say you jumping on Cobalt for something that is hardly close to a scumtell and saying you "should have trusted your gut" when it's like 3 posts into the game qualifies as a bit "overeager". I have no problems with jumping on minor things early game to get things rolling, but your play strikes me as you trying to overplay the gravity of Cobalt's actions and make it appear far worse than it was in actuality.

[VP Baltar]

@GR- I voted Cobalt for his "eagerness to hear numbers". The gut in that sentence clearly refers to my random vote, unless of course you are suggesting I had some sort of gut based read on Cobalt before he had even posted in the game.

I would say you jumping on Cobalt for something that is hardly close to a scumtell and saying you "should have trusted your gut" when it's like 3 posts into the game qualifies as a bit "overeager". I have no problems with jumping on minor things early game to get things rolling, but your play strikes me as you trying to overplay the gravity of Cobalt's actions and make it appear far worse than it was in actuality.

Would you have preferred that we all have five pages of RVS going "ZOMG YOU ARE SCUM CAUSE YOUR AVATAR...LULZ" before we start making serious accusations? Do you think that is helpful in the format of this game?

This is probably my last post until tomorrow. I don't like how much fuzzy is posting given how few posts he claims to have. Cobalt's last two posts make no sense to me. I don't know what to think about Sens' potential information, if it's true then we should be lynching Cobalt for having a fakeclaim. Notice how he didn't say he was town, just that he wasn't mafia.

I have a mod-provided fake claim ability and am not mafia.

[Cobalt]

scumteam reasoning is obvious. I just ran some numbers based on post caps and the game rules: the mod seems to expect this game to run about 5 days, which would seem to preclude multiple killing groups. We also know there's no cult/sk because of our win condition. The only factional win conditions must be town and mafia, and there might be a survivor or someone with a weird individual wincon.
at any rate...

I don't know what to think about Sens' potential information, if it's true then we should be lynching Cobalt for having a fakeclaim. Notice how he didn't say he was town, just that he wasn't mafia.

lol, town only needs to kill the mafia to win I don't think you share my win condition.
sens, did your info say 3 FACTIONAL wincons or just 3 wincons?

calling it right now, the scum are in:
fuzzylightning
juls
a cold starry night
VP Baltar
DTMaster

all gut.

Just in case you missed that part up above, VP wants to lynch me for having a falseclaim ability and said "he didn't say he was town, just that he wasn't mafia". Town win condition only requires the mafia to die, ergo VP is not town.

unvote, vote: VP Baltar

[Juls]

Just in case you missed that part up above, VP wants to lynch me for having a falseclaim ability and said "he didn't say he was town, just that he wasn't mafia". Town win condition only requires the mafia to die, ergo VP is not town.

I don't follow this logic. In fact, I follow VP's logic moreso. He was pointing out that you may be a third party. Even if our wincon says we have to kill all mafia it doesn't mean there is not a third party role of some kind that has a different wincon. That coupled with sensfan's declaration of 3 wincons it seems rather likely.

Also with regards to more than one scum team...I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were 2. Vi did this in the last mini normal we played. Having multiple kills per night is common in mini's. and games still can reach to 4-5 days.

I am happy with my vote.

On a side note, I don't think we should be concerned with the number of posts we have. Mine is ample and I am guessing others are as well given the short deadlines. The point of this experiment is to be concise and not have a wallpost-filled game. So just do that and the post counts will take care of themselves.

[Cobalt]

why should VP care if I am third party? the town only needs to lynch the mafia. Town doesn't care about third parties. Also, I'm not third party.
so juls, is VP your godfather?

[Vi]

I can fight... I'm...very angry... The food here... It was terrible, and...they gave us hardly any... I...will have vengeance.

Vote Count:

Cobalt (L-3) ~ VP Baltar, SensFan, Juls, Kmd4390
VP Baltar (L-3) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, a cold starry night, Cobalt

Kmd4390 (L-5) ~ Goatrevolt, DTMaster
Juls (L-6) ~ Sotty7,

Cobalt

a cold starry night (L-7) ~

Cobalt

Not Voting:

fuzzylightning

--With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, October 17 2009.

(9 days left)

Post Count:

a cold starry night - 2
Cobalt - 8
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 1
DTMaster - 3
fuzzylightning - 4
Goatrevolt - 3
Juls - 2
Kmd4390 - 5
Locke Lamora - 1
SensFan - 2
Sotty7 - 1
VP Baltar - 5

[SensFan]

Very happy with my vote.

Also, V/LAish upcoming due to my coming of age and Thanksgiving

[Cobalt]

interesting, considering your original vote on me was based on a vague suspicion that my post cap claiming would somehow help scum
also, I seem to be voting 3 people, Vi

I'll let you figure out what it could mean when your vote is in gray and crossed out. ~Vi

[a cold starry night]

My biased shotgun summary.

vp baltar - jumpy, defensive, reactionary, strange pregame "gut" reaction

scotty - crimeless wagon, 1 post

fuzzy - claims 50 posts like myself, hesitant to enter fray but willing to discuss logic

goat - interesting first post, preemptive lurk alert, claimed 3 fake claims

cobalt - flip-floppy, scatter-brained, unexplained OMGUS juls, claimed fake claim, claimed 85 posts

kmd - post claims: "I don't see the benefit.", claims to have large post count

sens - against post count disclosure, claims 3 win conditions (possible red herring), tells people what to "expect" from mafia

dtmaster - claimed 65 posts, rants/votes against kmd for 5 word sentence, enabling heavy discussion

juls - preemptive lurk alert, votes cobalt based on fake claim

How is it scummy for me to misread something that wasn't very clear and I argue more likely to be taken the way I interpreted it over the way you meant it (especially considering Cobalt jumped on the same thing)? You'll have to be pretty slick to convince me of this one.

My post was mainly condemning Cobalt, whom I think is scum. I apologize. I was trying to be succinct. I shall endeavor to be more clear in the future.

starry night-do you have any original thoughts, or just "I agree" thoughts?

I would like to think I have original thoughts.

Since multiple people have put out the extra information released in their roles, e.g the "fake claims", and the "3 win conditions", I shall go out on a limb and release my "modnote" or whathaveyou. I have information that states that there are at least 2 power roles in the game - which is kind of a durrrr in a game like this. Oh well, at least the information is out there. You heard it from me.

I think its strange to say you

aren't mafia

so early in a game like this. In IRC mafia thats usually grounds for a quick lynch.

Just in case you missed that part up above, VP wants to lynch me for having a falseclaim ability and said "he didn't say he was town, just that he wasn't mafia". Town win condition only requires the mafia to die, ergo VP is not town.

Fallacy alert!

Cobalt's Premise: All townies

only

want to lynch mafia.
Cobalt's Conclusion: VP is not town because VP believes Cobalt is a third party.
Problem: There are other possible win conditions that could be detrimental to the town. This argument is given further credence by Sens semi-claim of multiple wincons.

Affirming the consequent! Juls addresses this; Cobalt just proceeds to repeat himself

*cut* ~Vi

Unvote
Vote: Cobalt

[Vi]

--Note- I guess I have to go by copy/pasting the code instead of just the words of the post. It's easier for me.

[a cold starry night]

Oh ok.

[Cobalt]

Heh. I'm gonna be out of posts in 3 days at this rate.

Cobalt's Premise: All townies only want to lynch mafia.
Cobalt's Conclusion: VP is not town because VP believes Cobalt is a third party.
Problem: There are other possible win conditions that could be detrimental to the town. This argument is given further credence by Sens semi-claim of multiple wincons.

Affirming the consequent! Juls addresses this; Cobalt just proceeds to repeat himself and make unfounded accusations against her. Anyways.

objection 1) my premise is not mine, it is the town win condition. are you playing to a different one?
objection 2) the "problem" is nonexistent. you can't have any factional wincons in this game besides mafia and town, due to the wording of the town wincon. as an example, take a cult that has to take over the whole town to win. if it converted everyone, the town still wins because there's no more mafia.
or for an SK: the SK can kill everyone and the town still wins because the mafia is dead as well. you see? because the town only needs to kill the mafia, any-NON MAFIA wincons will not conflict with the town wincon, or the game could end in two different factional win conditions being fulfilled. as this is contrary to the definition of the factional win condition as posited in the first post, there cannot be any factional win conditions besides mafia and town (unless Vi made a broken game).
VP Baltar obviously did not read and consider the town win condition, or he would have realized that third party win conditions cannot be factional and therefore do not conflict with the town win condition. I believe this lack of attention to the town wincon is because he didn't get a town PM and merely skimmed the example PM in the first post.

also, juls didn't address directly this at all, she merely stated there might be 2 scumteams.

Safe lynch, false-claim debate aside, he's lynchable based on his crazed flip-floppy behavior alone.

HAHAHAHAHA
I love analyzing wagons to see who jumps on the easy targets. I'm only at L-2: I'd love to see if there's any more gullible scum out there. I wish I could see the fear on your faces when I claim, scumbags: it'll be hilarious when you realize who you just wagoned with poor reasoning.

my voice of yune was just advice about posting under 450 words

[SensFan]

I call bullshit on just about everything Cobalt is trying to sell.
I am in favour of a lynch at this point.

[a cold starry night]

This is where I pat you on the head and watch you get lynched in a page or two.