Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[farside22]

The I need more sleep Vote Count

Maemuki: Zazie, Maemuki, Wulfy
Hewitt: Scien, Yankcrane
Wulfy: ODDin, YamiJoey
Scien: Farside22
Nikanor: ElectricBadger
YamiJoey: Nikanor

Not Voting: hewitt, Fuzzyman

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 3 weeks from now. Tuesday 17th November, 9pm English time

Hugs and Kisses
Haylen xxx

Scien: you seem to misunderstand me. I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.
I don't like to see a observation then just backing out on it.
Plus I did ask as a player who's been around for awhile why would you bring up something you know to be a null tell?

[Scien]

Nope I understand that perfectly. But arguing against it is going to be impossible, because just as the accusation is a bit of WIFOM, even if experience shows it holds, any defense is also going to be based in WIFOM.

I really haven't been around

that

long. This would be my eighth game, not counting other ongoings, but I am not hiding behind that. Eh? Just to see what kind of reactions I would get I suppose. I was definitely surprised to get a huge push back from you saying I should have used it in an attack. I just didn't think it was strong enough.

What I expected? Either people directly telling me to STFU because it was WIFOM, or maybe people lightly speculating. Both of which would give me views on them. I didn't expect it to be used in a case (that would have been very odd and I would have been highly critical of it).

I guess I kind of lost sight of that in the immediate defense I had to make due to your strong attack. That attack caught me off guard.

[Nikanor]

Do you folks really have to write so many walls?

[Nikanor]

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

farside gave herself the newbcard in her first post. However, her attacks on Scien make it clear that she intends to not use said newbcard.
i.e. I believe farside was just being modest when she said she was out of touch, so her first post is not a tell.

[Wulfy]

I almost felt like smacking my head on my desk reading the exchange between YJ and Maemuki. Anyone care to explain if there is a past relationship between these two because frankly goofiness likes this just gives me a bad taste.

*barks* *indicates the obvious Yu-Gi-Oh reference in his name.*

Unvote; Vote: Wulfy

I think that's too close to a wagon for a joke now. I also forgot to make my "I hate this game for having no backstory" post at the beginning. =(

YJ

*Looks confused*
*Barks in a tone the indicates he didn't want to get replaced and voted the bird without reading*
Plus, how is a bandwagon of 5 votes bad? Even if all town, how stupid do you theorize scum are? They would probably stay off of the bandwagon and avoid quicklynch, and I hope townies are intelligent to random vote other players.

You would be my vote right now were it not for your attacks on Scien.

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

Asking stupid, easily deflected questions is scummy. It appears to be participating, but instead of actually adding content that you make, you are having others add content. Also, are you not self voting at this point? Why maintain it?

Farside's noting the lack of agression at a prime opportunity. Personally, I would have went for the meat instead of laying a trap, which appears to be the case. However, such a move isn't so much a trap as much as a musing. A musing is non-committal and could be easily done by scum to look like participation. Scien's reactions were a jump, but just as null as his earlier move.* The rest of the back and forth looks like heated, alignment-irrelevant arguing.

*It's too early to really be considered scummy.

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

farside gave herself the newbcard in her first post. However, her attacks on Scien make it clear that she intends to not use said newbcard.
i.e. I believe farside was just being modest when she said she was out of touch, so her first post is not a tell.

Bullshit. Look at the track record and her standing. Clearly that was to force players off their guard by luring them into attacking her because she could easily defeat them in arguments, I'm sure. This would be an interesting move as either side which means it tells nothing of alignment but of her clever play style. And yes, you will read walls and analyze and play hardcore or you will get lost, lose interest, and replace out. Or be zwetschenwasser. Either way, you better be the first or this will be a long, tedious, and boring game.

Back to the person I'm voting:
What do you think of the scien/farside discussion.

[farside22]

You would be my vote right now were it not for your attacks on Scien.

Explain, please. It makes me think that you suspect Scien now, yet you're voting YJ. Which one is scummier? Why?

Asking stupid, easily deflected questions is scummy. It appears to be participating, but instead of actually adding content that you make, you are having others add content. Also, are you not self voting at this point? Why maintain it?

I saw this too but not that I know Maemuki's play style but so far it has given me nothing warm, fuzzy or substantial. She's somebody I feel is either anti-town or scum. I'm not voting on her as anti-town is dangerous however one thing I learned with this set up. Mafia and wolf both want to win and will eventually look at the anti-town and attack them. Plus I feel like scien is backing off a bit too much and his attacks are more troubling to me.

Bullshit. Look at the track record and her standing. Clearly that was to force players off their guard by luring them into attacking her because she could easily defeat them in arguments, I'm sure. This would be an interesting move as either side which means it tells nothing of alignment but of her clever play style. And yes, you will read walls and analyze and play hardcore or you will get lost, lose interest, and replace out. Or be zwetschenwasser. Either way, you better be the first or this will be a long, tedious, and boring game.

Back to the person I'm voting:
What do you think of the scien/farside discussion.

Not really it's been almost 3 moths or longer (I lost track) since I played mafia. My last few months before giving it up I lost a lot of interest in the game it's self. I don't feel like a great record after being gone and running into players I never heard of. It's like starting a new.[/quote]

[ODDin]

Well well, out of the RVS already.

On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.
She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?
It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

Why would she do that? I have an idea:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

And my personal recent reference of scum being extremely aggressive at the start of the game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11779 (DNW, scum, attacking Starbuck, also scum, very aggressively in the early stages of the game)

So, I'm currently getting scummy vibes from farside, thus,

unvote, vote: farside

Other thing of note: in posts 26 and 27, Wulfy and maemuki continue playing randomly even though we're clearly out of the RVS by that point. Especially alarming is Maemuki, who's also still voting for herself.

[ZazieR]

Vote: Hewitt

Why hello there.

Although I don't know what to think about the Wulfy not confirming thing, or the person going after him without mentioning this. No really, its a curiosity, and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything >.<

Questions:
-Why could one of the mentioned actions have scum motivations behind them? (Wulfy not confirming and ODDin not mentioning this when voting)
-You're saying here that you don't know if either means a thing. Yet in the case it could have meant something about the allignment, wouldn't it have been better to vote one of Wulfy or ODDin, instead of your random vote? If you agree, why didn't you do so?

Woooo! Bring on the Zazie Spamfest, I love 'em ~Hayl

[ZazieR]

Claim: Bulletproof Jester

Discuss.

YJ

Today we learn what's special about Open Games. Namely, the roles present are listed in one of the first few posts. See you all next time.

Have you used this 'tactic' before?

[ZazieR]

Vote Maemuki

To save her from my playstyle

I need saving from my active lurking, not spammers. xP

Anyway!

Vote: Maemuki

, because I have the handwriting of a 5 year old. It sucks.

What I meant was that if you get lynched, you're save from my playstyle

Have you self-voted before during the RVS?

[ZazieR]

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

[ZazieR]

*barks*
Submited:

Votes ugly bird Maemuki

Did you put Maemuki at L-2 on purpose? If so, why?

And

Maemuki

, what were your thoughts about the wagon on you?

Aww, is that all You can do better than that! ~ Hayl

[ZazieR]

The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum.

I don't see how it is possibly scummy. I think it is odd that he hasn't confirmed yet and no one mentioned it, especially for people random voting, but its just a poof of WIFOM really, and there is no real reason to try and push it as a real case.

That's why I chose the word 'odd' and not scummy.

There is no way to derive meaning from this...

so I can't attribute scum points for it.

This is scummy. First reason, stating that he can't see himself a real case in it. So why is it odd to him then that nobody pointed it out?
Secondly, saying the bolded. Then why point it out?

[ZazieR]

Seriously you have a

good thought

and you feel like random voting?!!! [...] Your not being aggressive on this, your sitting back and just bringing it up but you don't want to press on it. [...] A late confirmation is null tell. [...] If someone confirmed late it's for any reason and all reasons.

I have a good thought? One that you simultaneously say is also a null tell? But you are criticizing me for not being aggressive over it?

Your views are all over the place if I am reading this right. What was a good thought? How was it a good thought? If its a null tell, why do you want me to aggressively pursue it?

You are not making sense lady.

No, what she's saying makes a lot of sense.
You pointed something out. Discussing that would have been better than a RVS in case it's worth pursuing (Hence, it being a good thought). Yet, you dismiss it and instead go for a random vote (Hence the criticising of you not being aggressive about it).

[ZazieR]

Gah! You started the conversation without me? I guess this is what I get for sleeping in...
I'm getting some good vibes from both Scien and farside here, so I won't vote either of them. Instead, I'll...

Vote: YamiJoey

for his double standards regarding EB and Wulfy. Wulfy gets a vote for hopping on the Maemuki wagon to put her at L-3, but YJ does not mention EB's L-3 vote on Maemuki just a few posts prior.

Uhm, what? Wulfy's vote against Maemuki put Maemuki at L-2.

That's much better. And woooo! 64th post!!! ~ Hayl

[ElectricBadger]

Well, your assurance is good enough for me.

Unvote Maemuki, Vote Nikanor

for not posting yet.

Why Nikanor and did this vote have a purpose or was it still random?

In my last game town lost to a trio of lurker-scum. Another game we were both involved in is now over 5 months long because of lurkers and inactives. So I'm getting kind of touchy about the subject and starting to lean towards the Lynch All Lurkers mentality.

Also, my vote on Maemuki wasn't serious, provided no pressure so was unproductive, and although her wagon wasn't in much danger of an accidental lynch I didn't feel comfortable letting my vote sit there when I logged off.

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

[ZazieR]

I thought it was worth mentioning that we had a 'random' vote on what was a person who had not checked in the game yet. It's WIFOM to have suggested anything else about it, and it wouldn't have helped town. However it is something worth noting. Combined with future actions, it may give sight to motives involved.

Before I'll comment on this, can you elaborate on what you mean with 'future actions' in this case?
Also, from this post (Post 37), I get the impression you're suspicious of Farside. If this is true, why no vote?

[ZazieR]

Where do you see the word weak here?

Vote: Hewitt

Why hello there.

Although I don't know what to think about the Wulfy not confirming thing, or the person going after him without mentioning this. No really, its a curiosity,

and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything >.<

Now your saying it's weak after I said it was a null tell but seeing the first post it looks frankly like your trying to bring something to a random vote but flutter off into nothing for no reason. No where do you say it's weak.
Is this a note for yourself? Is this a weak attempt at finding something? Was this attempt at anything and why did you wait till I said it was a null tell and weak to say it was weak yourself?

Farside

, what does the bolded in the quote from Scien say to you?

[ZazieR]

[2] No, it wasn't an attempt of anything but an observation. Why did I wait? I didn't, I believe part of the post that you are complaining about said: "No really, its a curiosity, and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything." Did I say it was scummy? No I said it was a curiosity.

At least use the full quote when you're trying to defend yourself. Because the part behind the part about curiousity states that you don't know yet if it means anything.
Meaning that you could see it as an indicator of allignment.

[ZazieR]

So in this "choose your own adventure", I immediately attack ODDin on the grounds that he is 'random' voting for an inactive, someone who wouldn't have defended themselves. (Or I guess Wulf on the grounds of the late confirm. Depending on which I wanted to pressure more). I would have to overextend a lot here, because it IS early game and there's nothing to back me up.

Town/scum catch this, and depending on their alignment will manipulate it, or be critical of it. I will get accused for pushing a weak case, and fabricating suspicion. Mainly pretty anti-town stuff. Pressure is immediately taken off ODDin in favor of me, and we are in the same mess as we are now for different reasons.

First of all, you're stating that you'd see whom of Wulfy and ODDin you'd have wanted to presure more. If you wanted to pressure one of them, why no vote?
Secondly, it's noted that you thought that much about yourself.

[Maemuki]

What I meant was that if you get lynched, you're save from my playstyle

Have you self-voted before during the RVS?

Nah, I like spam <3 It makes me post.

No, I never self-voted period before. I randomly felt like it. As for the reason, I wanted to make discussion. It worked, didn't it?

Unvote: Maemuki

Other thing of note: in posts 26 and 27, Wulfy and maemuki continue playing randomly even though we're clearly out of the RVS by that point. Especially alarming is Maemuki, who's also still voting for herself.

Maemuki isn't anymore. Maemuki will try to be serious though...and fail.

And

Maemuki

, what were your thoughts about the wagon on you?

Well, I made it. It was to make discussion, it worked, and I assumed that the Mafia and the Werewolves wouldn't quicklynch on Day 1. That would be the same as wearing a T-Shirt saying "Please lynch me".

@ farside,

Scien: you seem to misunderstand me. I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game.

Not really. There are many people on the site, some play aggresively, others don't, right? It depends, so aggresiveness is a null-tell on my eyes. Why do you think that scum wouldn't be as aggresive as any other townie?

@ to whoever said that my apparently worthless question asking is scummy,

I'll talk to you later. They may seem useless now, but as I said, I'll talk to you later.

[ZazieR]

Yes, someone confirming late is a null tell. It was merely an observation. You still think that I should have taken that null tell and pushed a case against ODDin or Wulf over it? I still think this sounds like you are arguing both sides. Pushing that case would have been scummy, just like not pushing it is apparently scummy (I don't understand why the latter is the case though).

I don't see why you wondered if confirming late could be scummy when you state here that you think it's a nulltell. Please explain this. This reinforces my earlier statement as well that you stated it was odd that it didn't get mentioned, while you state that it's a nulltell.

Also, can you link to your last scum game and your last town game?

[ZazieR]

The I need more sleep Vote Count

Maemuki: Zazie, Maemuki, Wulfy
Hewitt: Scien, Yankcrane
Wulfy: ODDin, YamiJoey
Scien: Farside22
Nikanor: Wulfy
YamiJoey: Nikanor

Not Voting: hewitt, Wulfy, Fuzzyman

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 3 weeks from now. Tuesday 17th November, 9pm English time

Hugs and Kisses
Haylen xxx

Mod

- could you please fix the VC?

Fixed! Thank you *hugs* ~ Hayl

[ZazieR]

This post is scummy. I don't like how ODDin is misinterpreting some things.
(Will comment which and why after Farside has responded)

[ZazieR]

The only thing I don't like from EB's post, is this:

Nikanor was the first person on the list that hadn't yet posted (and the first one period) and I didn't see any other appealing wagon. So it was a little arbitrary (in selection) and a lot policy (as to why).

Calling his Nik vote a policy vote based upon him not having posted yet, while the game started the same day as his vote was made. I also don't trust policy lynches.