Newbie 869 - Game over

[Pulindar]

I don't know if this will count, and I'm not sure who is lying right now, but

Vote Zorb

You both played a great game, and I wouldn't have suspected either of you, but honestly Sens play was so scummy that I just can't get over Zorb's spot.

Again, I don't know if this will ocunt but I'll try anyway. Sorry

[Zorblag]

Well, it certainly doesn't hurt to try though with the deadline past I don't think it'll count.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah, and that wasn't the vote I'd hoped you'd cast. Ah well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Pulindar]

I guess we'll see what Vel says. This was a long but interesting game. I wish I knew you both better and had played more before being put in this position.

I don't like lying as scum, but I don't like the confusion as town. I think I'd like to be a third party position in future games, if I can get into one with third party positions.

[Nachomamma8]

If it does count, YESSS! Town wins, good game Zorblag. You played an excellent game, sorry that you had to replace such a scummy slot.

Pulindar, good job . You definitely played a strongly town game upon replacing in, so good work!

[Ellibereth]

Deadlines are full of win.

[Pulindar]

Sorry Zorb, both Nacho and you played great games, and I honestly didn't see good cases against either of you, but Sens play just kept bothering me. I hate bringing his play against you, but it was just so... erratic.

and he seemed to take advantage of alot. I also didn't like how he used his IC status to force people to stop considering things, and to make other arguments. Anyway, my first newbie game is officially finished.

[Zorblag]

Yeah, I'll talk more about he game tomorrow but for now no one should feel bad for me for replacing into SensFan's spot just because he looked scummy; that's part of replacing in and as often as not it works the other way for me. In general I was pretty happy with how everyone played the game but I'll share some thoughts on people individually after we've got an official final verdict.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jee]

I have to say. SensFan using the, 'I wouldn't be allowed to play this hard since I'm the IC, and VKR wouldn't let me do that'. It was a dirty thing to say because it was one of the main reasons I laid off on suspecting him.

but good game.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry Pulindar, your vote in post 600 came 23 minutes after the deadline, therefore it doesn't count.



Official Vote Count

Nachomamma8 - 1 (Zorblag)
Zorblag - 1 (Nachomamma8)

Not Voting - 1 (Pulindar)

2 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Sunday, February 21.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The sun is setting, and Pulindar is nowhere to be seen. The angry mob gathered around Zorblag and Nacho lose their conviction along with the daylight, and everyone returns to their homes with a sense of dread hanging in the air.

The Mafia make a point of removing the last threats to "their" town, solidifying their hold on the people once and for all.

Nachomamma8,

Townie

, killed in Endgame

Pulindar

Townie

, killed in Endgame

Zorblag

wins the game for the

Mafia

team!!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Role Reveal:

[mrow]Player[col]Replacing[col]Role Deer [col]

-

[col]Townie Ellibereth [col]

-

[col]Mafia Goon jee [col]

-

[col]Doc Nachomamma8 [col]Kami-Sama, Tuberkulos ^ [col]Townie Arthur Dent [col]

-

[col]Townie Pulindar [col]Mr Finch [col]Townie totallynotmafia [col]RPG*Twilight ^ [col]Townie Zorblag [col]SensFan * [col]Mafia Goon

---

Night Actions:

Night 1:

Ellibereth kills Arthur Dent.
jee protects RPG*Twilight.

Night 2:

jee protects Nachomamma8.
SensFan submits a No Kill.

Night 3:

jee protects Zorblag.
Zorblag kills totallynotmafia.

Night 4:

jee protects Zorblag.
Zorblag kills jee.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Everyone should use this time to post thoughts and observations about the game. Ask questions and try to figure out what went wrong (and right) with your play and how you can learn from it and improve. Be polite in pointing out mistakes made by others! Conversely, if someone points something out, learn from it – don’t get offended!!

My Observations

:

Well played guys. Pulindar, make sure you don't wait until the last minute to get on and cast a final vote - you may not be able to do so.

Sorry Zorb, both Nacho and you played great games, and I honestly didn't see good cases against either of you, but Sens play just kept bothering me. I hate bringing his play against you, but it was just so... erratic.

The person may change, but the role doesn't. Keep that in mind for next time. You have to sort out whether the actions were scummy personally for Sens, or scummy because it was the best play to make. The first instance can be solved by meta analysis. If it was the best play for scum then it's a no-brainer.

And 3rd party is the worst of both worlds You still have to lie, and do it REALLY well, because if you get killed you lose. No chance for your "buddy" to save you since there is no buddy. And you have the added responsibility of making sure that you don't kill off too many Mafia or Town, so that you can't let one of the other groups win by default. SK/3rd party roles are hard. But they are fun!

I have to say. SensFan using the, 'I wouldn't be allowed to play this hard since I'm the IC, and VKR wouldn't let me do that'. It was a dirty thing to say because it was one of the main reasons I laid off on suspecting him.

but good game.

Yeah. It took everything I had not to say something because then I'd have had to declare the game abandoned. I would have basically given away Sens alignment by correcting him publicly.

No worries. I'm handling the issue.

[Pulindar]

Ah well, I don't feel so bad even though we did lose, and even though that loss was my fault, I still am glad I chose correctly, if a bit late.

[jee]

Yeah. It took everything I had not to say something because then I'd have had to declare the game abandoned. I would have basically given away Sens alignment by correcting him publicly.

No worries. I'm handling the issue.

Yah, I understand. Kind of lame, because that was the reason I was looking for other people beside him.

Overall, good game, I learned stuff. Got to play a new role, so it was fun

[totallynotmafia]

Moral of this story: Never trust the IC.

This is the bit I had the problem with:

Also, if I bussed a partner as hard as some of you are accusing me of bussing Elli, there's no doubt in my mind VRK (who is modding this game, so of course sees it) would absolutely have banned me from ICing again. The IC is here to help teach other players about a game of Mafia; and to completely make sure your NewbPartner is lynched would be a massive problem. My primary goal isn't to win, of course. My goal is to help teach Mafia.

That's really abusing the role of IC imho, and was the main thing that made me think SF wasn't scum.

Anyway well done scum, and well done pulindar and nacho for guessing right.

So not only was I trying to lynch the doctor but I set up a scum as the cop...you're welcome scum!

[Deer]

Well done town, I was really thinking nacho was scum there. impressive bussing though

[Zorblag]

First off, thanks for moderating Vel-Rahn Koon and good job town. You really should have won this one. I'll take a win caused by lack of access to the internet from Pulidar but, really, you guys figured it out by the end and you should have had the game so you should feel good about that.

I didn't hugely love like my spot much in the game just because of it's lack of flexibility from when I joined in but I enjoyed the challenge even if I apparently don't quite have the skill set to have lived up to it. For what it's worth, I was completely telling the truth when I said that not claiming to be roleblocked was a terrible play. I think that gave me more trouble than anything else that I inherited from SensFan just because it left me in a spot where I had to have a reason for someone to have made a really bad move. If I had inherited that as town I think I would have come up with the gambit theory that I did here but even I thought that sounded far-fetched.

OK, here are some things that I think it'd be good to take away from this game.

* There's no real reason to let the final vote come as the clock is running out. I thought I had lost the game when Pulindar voted for me back on February 4th. I never saw a good chance to actually get the win after that (at best I thought I might have made it up to a 50-50 chance of not getting lynched) and so as much as anything else I was playing for the stall in the crazy hope that what actually happened would. In the end it's a game; if a vote feels good enough to make in LyLo it's probably worth sticking with.

* Just becuase someone's fairly pleasant and seems to be trying to help doesn't by any stretch make them town. The massive turnaround after Day Four started on the level of suspicion towards my player spot was crazy. I didn't do anything to wipe out SensFan's play from before; I just use a playstyle that's designed to be less likely to invoke a desire to vote me than he does. Actually, along the same lines, SensFan probably would have acted about the same if he were town. It's important to try to divorce personality from alignment as they aren't that closely linked for most players.

* In my opinion everyone who's complaining about SensFan's post in which he said he couldn't bus like he did as an IC has every right to feel as though they were treated unfairly. One of the first things I did after entering the game was to register a complaint about that post myself (via PM.) On the plus side we can rest assured that Vel-Rahn Koon will deal with it appropriately so other than noting that it shouldn't have happened there's no need to worry about it from here on out on our end.

Here are some thoughts for individual players:

@Pulindar, don't worry about being out of your league. You're really not. I might talk up a streak when I need to but I really am just 3-5 (now that I've also won NG 871) in endgame situations like the one you were in when I'm town. It's a tough spot and you did fine. I'd just recommend being more sure of yourself and be willing to follow through. Don't worry if you get killed (when I get lynched or night killed town is 9-1 so it's really not such a bad thing in my experience) and just do your best to find scum even when it means just being satisfied with a gut reason if you can't see a rational one.

@Nachomamma8, I think that you might have been able to push me on my sudden vote towards the end of the day (I had a half-assed defense prepared but I think you would have won that exchange.) On the whole you let me get you on the defensive at the end of the game and never seemed to launch any extra counter attacks. Even when you've got a bunch of points you'd like to make that seem legitimate (and many of your Walls-of-Points were largely legitimate) most players aren't going to read posts like that; I suspect that it'd be useful to end posts of that sort with a quick summary that gets as much of your point across as you can. I know that towards the end of the game I felt pretty good about exchanging long posts that I didn't think that Pulindar was going to read too in depth; at that point I just had to say something and stay on the offense to accomplish my goals.

@Deer, giving up like you did at the end of Day Four was probably a mistake. It might not have made a difference but if you're pretty sure that you're being taken down then you want to make as many last points as you can so that they've got some chance to be fresh. I don't know if anyone else in the game actually agreed with the case that I made when I was ready to vote you but I do know that it might have helped you to get everyone to be as explicit as I was trying to be.

@jee and totallynotmafia, I am sorry that you stopped looking so much at my spot based on SensFan's post. I'd make sure not to give anyone too much credit if their claim clears you as innocent in the future (clearly SensFan and I did that as scum this game) but I don't think that you cleared me just because of that.

On the whole it was a pleasure playing with everyone here. Best of luck in your future games! If you have any questions do feel free to ask and I'll be happy to give my input.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Pulindar]

Well thanks for the advise, and from now on I will be more sure of myself. This was the first game I completed as town, and I really was nervous at the position I was in

Next time I think I'll go for my gut more.

[SensFan]

Hey people,

Really sorry I just disappeared on you all of a sudden. I went through several very stressful things in real-life, and decided to step away from MafiaScum for the time being. I had, unfortunately, completely forgotten I was still in a game at the time. Glancing at the thread I see VRK was able to find a replacement for me. Again, you have my apologies.

On the subject of my post that caused so many issues, I do not apologize. Don't get me wrong, I fully realize that it was a complete lie and meant to deceive you guys, but in my mind, that's what Scum do. Scum ICs have always been able to do such things as not explain game theory or things of that nature, as long as an explanation is offered post-game, and I see this as similar. Though this was a while ago, I recall having cleared that specific argument by VRK through PM, but I cannot find any trace of having asked that. I hope none of you think I was trying to mislead you on an out-of-game level, I was simply doing my best to win for both myself and my scumbuddy.

On that note, to Elli, I do hope you don't feel hurt or anything that I bussed you so heavily. It was my plan coming into the game to bus as hard as possible, and I must admit it became somewhat frustrating to be doing everything in my power to lynch my buddy, and have the Town refuse to go along with it It was, of course, all meant to further our chances of winning the game as a team, and I thought I did a decent job of it.

On a light-hearted note, I would like to point to the following post of mine:

Guys. Seriously, cool off a bit. It was L-2. That's it. There's no way 2 Town would place L-1 and hammer votes, so there was no danger of a lynch.

You guys are massively overreacting here.

Scumbuddies?

Totally.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

SensFan,

I am NOT happy with this. You did absolutely no such thing as trying to clear the tactic with me then, because I would have said no. You flat-out lied about what you are and are not allowed to do as an IC, and used MY NAME AND POSITION AS LISTMOD TO VALIDATE IT.

I'm not the kind to do this in thread, but this is twice now and frankly I'm all done with your behavior.

The first time you said that in thread, I didn't say anything because to call you on that play you're talking about there would have given away your alignment.

Now you're trying to say that I OKd this with you via PM? No sir. Not ever. I keep every PM I get until my inbox gets full to the point where they get auto-deleted, and I have NO record WHATSOEVER of you trying to clear this tactic with me ahead of time.

I NEVER would have let you do that if I had known it was coming. You 100% overstepped your bounds as an IC, both then and with this most recent post.

Effective NOW, you are forbidden from playing in ANY Newbie game as long as I am the ListMod. I'm all done.

This behavior is 100% unacceptable. You will not EVER AGAIN abuse my position as ListMod to legitimize some whacky, half-ass tactic you come up with.


-Vel

[SensFan]

Though this was a while ago, I recall having cleared that specific argument by VRK through PM, but

I cannot find any trace of having asked that.

Just to make sure no one misses the important parts in their haste and anger.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Last post.