Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)


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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:32 pm

Post by Moai Interceptor Cannons »

- I thought Kerrigan was more scummy in the first place.
- I voted Monkey because his wagon was bigger. Bandwagons are fun and all.
- I switched to Kerrigan because Monkey's reaction was inconclusive.

@Hoopla, I interpreted it the way I did because there was no explanation as to what would happen if the lynch majority was achieved before the mayor support majority. Also: {16. As soon as a mayority [
sic
] of votes (more then half the number of votes) agrees on a person to lynch, that decision stands. Vote changes after that will no longer be counted.}
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:52 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

Serial, right after the fourth vote on Monkey (i.e. he actually waited until there were four votes) he simply pointed out that there were four votes on him without a good reason - I don't know how you got the distinct impression that he was worried from that. If anything I find the lack of reaction more eyebrow-raising than what you're trying to push.
I disagree totally. Personally, if there's no danger of being lynched and no reasons why there's a wagon on you, there's nothign really to say.

re: MIC - I don't know. Lack of meta is making reads hard. My gut is giving monkeya break with his recent support of MIC. I don't know that scum would support someone defending them like that. I don't think they are scum together, that would be a ridiculous level of support for each other on D1 with that kind of heat. It's possible MIC is getting early defense of a townie on, but that's getting very speculative.

Sorry - that's a bit rambly. Short answer is I don't have any particularly strong strong opinions other than I think it's quite unlikely the two of them are scum together.

Socrates - I refer you back to my 'your own death is worse than any other death' point. If you die and you're town, the town definitely lose a day. So does it justify doing anythign to lynch someone else? No. Any player we pick to be mayor will most likely be town. 11/12 of people, regardless of how much they try to get themselves elected, will end up with a mayor they don't know is town. I think your point is much more shallow than it appears.

Hoopla's idea of the use of the mayor isn't bad. Creates some irritating WIFOM if we lynch scum, but can't complain. Has a sort of a defeatist attitude that I find distasteful. I'm not sure that a confirmed town giving mayorhood to someone will be any morel ikely to result in a town mayor than a genuinely elected mayor.
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:29 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

Moai Interceptor Cannons wrote:Hoopla, you've just put Monkey on L-2 if I count correctly. And the way I understand it, if Monkey gets to L-0 then you (the person with most support for mayor) become the mayor and he dies anyway. @Mod: Is that how it works?
No, that is incorrect. If a player gets to L-0 before a mayor is chosen, nothing happens. Votes can still be changed, there hasn't been a decission to lynch anyone. Here, the game specific rules overwrite the general rules of mafia.

As soon as a majority is supporting a single player, that player becomes the mayor immediately. Only after that time does a player on L-0 get lynched (taking into account the fact that the mayor's vote counts double).

The * only marks who would become mayor if deadline hits.

---

I would like to remind everyone that I prefer to have questions asked through pm.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:42 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

Third support count of day 1:

charter (0)

kyle99 (1)
Hoopla


Moai Interceptor Cannons (1)
MonkeyMan576


Debonair Danny DiPietro (0)

SerialClergyman (1)
charter


* Hoopla (4)
Col.Cathart, xRECKONERx, SerialClergyman, kyle99


Socrates (2)
Socrates, Debonair Danny DiPietro


MonkeyMan576 (0)

xRECKONERx (1)
Moai Interceptor Cannons


nhammen (1)
nhammen


Col.Cathart (0)

SaintKerrigan (0)

Not supporting anyone (1)
SaintKerrigan


With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to elect someone as mayor.

an * marks who would become mayor if the day ended right now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third vote count of day 1:

charter (0)

kyle99 (0)

Moai Interceptor Cannons (0)

Debonair Danny DiPietro (0)

SerialClergyman (0)

Hoopla (0)

Socrates (0)

MonkeyMan576 (5)
charter, Socrates, xRECKONERx, SerialClergyman, Hoopla


xRECKONERx (1)
Col.Cathart


nhammen (0)

Col.Cathart (0)

SaintKerrigan (3)
Debonair Danny DiPietro, Moai Interceptor Cannons, MonkeyMan576


Not voting anyone (3)
kyle99, nhammen, SaintKerrigan


With 13 votes available, it takes 7 votes to lynch someone. However, noone can be lynched before a mayor is elected.
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:59 am

Post by Col.Cathart »

xRECKONERx wrote:I don't see why it's page four and I'm getting flak for not being helpful.
Exactly because of posts like this. Even though we were at page 4 at the time, everyone already meant business and started serious discussion. You're still acting, like we are in RVS. We don't even know any opinion from you, other that you like bigger wagons.

Hoopla's idea of lynching the Mayor on D1: Am I missing something? According to the rules:
Rules wrote: The mayor decides who will succeed him
how are we supposed to choose someone more obvtown on the next day, when it's the Mayor who decides his successor?
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:05 am

Post by SerialClergyman »

Col - I think the advantage is that the mayor will be picked of someone with a known alginment. If we mayor/lynch town, then a townie will decide who the mayor will be for D2.
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:21 am

Post by Col.Cathart »

SerialClergyman wrote:Col - I think the advantage is that the mayor will be picked of someone with a known alginment. If we mayor/lynch town, then a townie will decide who the mayor will be for D2.
Ok, I get it now... Though I still don't see this as a good idea. Even if the townie decides who will be the Mayor for D2, there's still a chance he'll actually pick scum as a successor. Also, if we'll lynch/elect scum on D1 - massive WIFOM ahoy.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:23 am

Post by SerialClergyman »

SC about three posts above you wrote:Hoopla's idea of the use of the mayor isn't bad. Creates some irritating WIFOM if we lynch scum, but can't complain. Has a sort of a defeatist attitude that I find distasteful. I'm not sure that a confirmed town giving mayorhood to someone will be any morel ikely to result in a town mayor than a genuinely elected mayor.
:P
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:43 am

Post by Col.Cathart »

Oh... Ok, looks like we agree on this point then... :P
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:35 am

Post by charter »

Moai Interceptor Cannons wrote:- I thought Kerrigan was more scummy in the first place.
- I voted Monkey because his wagon was bigger. Bandwagons are fun and all.
- I switched to Kerrigan because Monkey's reaction was inconclusive.
Yes, I get all that. Why was Kerrigan scummier in the first place?
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:49 am

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

Col.Cathart wrote:
xRECKONERx wrote:I don't see why it's page four and I'm getting flak for not being helpful.
Exactly because of posts like this. Even though we were at page 4 at the time, everyone already meant business and started serious discussion. You're still acting, like we are in RVS. We don't even know any opinion from you, other that you like bigger wagons.

Hoopla's idea of lynching the Mayor on D1: Am I missing something? According to the rules:
Rules wrote: The mayor decides who will succeed him
how are we supposed to choose someone more obvtown on the next day, when it's the Mayor who decides his successor?
There has to be some accountability for the eventual mayor. If the mayor advocates lynching someone who flips town, then at some point we need to consider a change of leadership(from what I understand this can only be done through lynching or NK, and even then the mayor decides who his successor will be. But even so, if the mayor chooses someone the town isn't supportive of, they are an obv lynch target.)
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:52 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I don't like Hoopla's idea, to be honest.
Remove support from Hoopla


Even if we give the lynchee the role of mayor, there's no way to know for sure if the person he picks to succeed him is going to be town.
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:52 am

Post by nhammen »

Socrates wrote:How does it waste an entire day in the hands of a bad townie? I was talking about how they are a whole vote closer to holding majority and the game will end one day sooner. This isn't kingmaker, and if the mayor obviously isn't on the right track we can still lynch the old fashioned way.
Yeah, because the player that is voted mayor today is obviously going to survive until endgame.[/sarcasm] I admit I was a little bit confused about what you were saying.
Hoopla wrote:
Some more thoughts while I'm still here:


The monkeyman wagon is good - he's at L-2 I believe. But I'm fine with putting him at L-1 considering we can't lynch until we've chosen a mayor. I don't think his blanket suspicion was bad, but the reaction to his own wagon was definitely off.

Re my support for mayor: I'd still prefer mayoring whoever we make our D1 lynch candidate, and don't intend to support mayoring anyone else until I hear sound reasoning behind why this would be a good idea on D1.
What happens if we lynch and support scum? Actually, don't answer that. If this does happen, we need them to be guessing at our response. There is some serious WIFOM involved here, and we want scum to have no idea what the answer is.

Also, how is there any difference between one confirmed town and a majority of town choosing the mayor. Either way, the people choosing have no idea about alignment.

Dangit! Ninja'd by two other players!!
charter wrote:Anyhow, who the mayor is now isn't really that important. Scum having an additional public vote on day one isn't a big deal. It will be important for them not to have it in the coming days, as it essentially makes LYLO one day sooner if the mayor is scum.
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:32 am

Post by SaintKerrigan »

Moai Interceptor Cannons wrote:Oh? Not the reply I was expecting. I basically read your post 66 as 'I kinda want to be mayor, but if I nominate myself people might see me as scummy so I'll just imply it'. The whole post just struck me as very dishonest and subtly contradictory of itself. If you don't want to be mayor, why did you fill out Serial's mayoral qualities thing?
I believe I stated quite clearly that I didn't want to be mayor in Post 66.
SaintKerrigan wrote:Basically, I wouldn't nominate me for mayor.
How exactly did you interpret that post to be an implied bid for mayor when I clearly stated that I did not want the candidacy? As for why I answered SC's questionnaire, I thought it was a good idea, so I went along with it. In case you didn't notice, the answers to the questionnaire (specifically the answers to questions 3-5) lent credence to why I stated I
wouldn't
want to be nominated for mayor. Given my scattershot scumhunting skills, I'm not the person you want to give a double vote to.

Have I made myself entirely clear?
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:22 pm

Post by Moai Interceptor Cannons »

Wouldn't nominate =/= don't want to be. There's a difference. It sounded like you were scared of nominating yourself because you thought that, as you said yourself, 'people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role'. Your answers to the questionnaire were an act of modesty, same as Serial's, Reckoner's, Nhammen's -- do we see a trend here? No one is arrogant enough to claim that they meet all the requirements to be a perfect mayor. I realise you can keep repeating that you answered the questionnaire because you 'thought it was a good idea', but do you see anyone else answering it and not wanting to me mayor? Serial himself is in denial about it, but that's because he believes there are better options. Unlike you: 'not yet sure who to nominate either'. If your post was actually a bid for mayor, it would've been fine. But wanting to be considered for mayor + not saying it outright because you felt that 'people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role' = dishonesty. Now if you actually didn't want to be mayor in the first place, then I am mistaken (and I apologise), but that was the impression I got from your post 66, and even if I was right you can keep claiming I was wrong anyway. This line of argument isn't going to go anywhere, so let me ask you something else. Why did you feel that 'people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role'? Also, who are you suspicious of?

@Charter, the answer to why I think Kerrigan is scummy is somewhere above. In short, what Monkey and Cathart did + actually wanting to be considered for mayor. Maybe I should get your opinion - does post 66 give you the impression that Kerrigan was being dishonest about wanting to be mayor? Mind you it's not as strong a suspicion that I'm willing to burn through him with a magnifying glass for it - after all it's still early game. Conversely, I don't get why you saw Monkey's blanket statement as a tell that he couldn't be anything but scum either. Why did you only give Cathart a FoS even before he retracted anything, whilst you had Monkey pegged as '100% scum'?

I'm not a fan of Hoopla's idea at all TBH. Town are uninformed and scum can WIFOM. All very pointless. And since it doesn't look like anyone else wants Reckoner to be mayor, I'll
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:12 pm

Post by Debonair Danny DiPietro »

I have yet to see an actual reason why Hoopla's idea is unsound, I see a general discomfort with it because it appears to be contrarian logic, but on actual reasoning it appears as sound if not more sound than anything else.
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:37 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

I don't particularly think it's bad, I just think it's over elaborate for this situation. Besides, it's not a matter of finding a logical hole in it, the question is is it better for a player who gets themselves lynched on day 1 with known alinment to choose the mayor, or is it better for us as a group to do it now?
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:54 pm

Post by charter »

MIC wrote:does post 66 give you the impression that Kerrigan was being dishonest about wanting to be mayor?
Not at all.
MIC wrote:Why did you only give Cathart a FoS even before he retracted anything, whilst you had Monkey pegged as '100% scum'?
Thought I'd have more time to question Cathart. Monkey's statement also looked much more like it was engineered to cast suspicion on others using 'saying election results being obvious' as a scumtell.

Really don't care who we make mayor, it's not going to be that big of deal day one, but we need to get on with lynching someone. I have no preference at this point whether it's MIC or Monkey. Monkey for reasons mentioned earlier and his following the invented logic in a Kerrigan vote. MIC for his defense of Monkey, his extremely awkward unvote of Monkey, and this push on Kerrigan, which is crap. Look like buddies to me.
Serial wrote:re: MIC - I don't know. Lack of meta is making reads hard. My gut is giving monkeya break with his recent support of MIC. I don't know that scum would support someone defending them like that. I don't think they are scum together, that would be a ridiculous level of support for each other on D1 with that kind of heat. It's possible MIC is getting early defense of a townie on, but that's getting very speculative.
Do you think they could both be scum?
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:55 pm

Post by Socrates »


Socrates - I refer you back to my 'your own death is worse than any other death' point. If you die and you're town, the town definitely lose a day. So does it justify doing anythign to lynch someone else? No. Any player we pick to be mayor will most likely be town. 11/12 of people, regardless of how much they try to get themselves elected, will end up with a mayor they don't know is town. I think your point is much more shallow than it appears.
Well, barring extreme circumstances I don't think a townie should ever take his own lynch lying down. Doing something demonstratably anti-town in order to do so is bad play, yes, but I wasn't advocating a townie lie or do something that would probably help the scum just to get elected.

The problem, SC, is that your are construing my position "All townies should attempt to become Mayor if they can help it" to "All townies should attempt to become mayor at the cost of all else." Which is not what I am saying at all.

I must ask, how do you feel about self-preservation votes?

Oh well. I am ready to drop this. The point is this: I want to be mayor, and it is not scummy for me to say so, contrary to what multiple players in this game have said.

Re: Hoopla's theory: I don't really see much of an issue with it. My only trepidation with it is that we are putting the decision in the hands of someone a majority of us would agree is very likely scum. That either means we are putting the decision to either scum or a player who isn't playing very well. I don't know.

One other problem: We lose all of those juicy connections we could go back and look at later in the game if we don't elect the old fashioned way. Right now we essentially have two lanes of people forming connections with each other (votes to lynch and votes to become mayor).
SaintKerrigan wrote:
Socrates wrote:Why don't you like that I nominated myself, and what problems do you have with me saying it is pro-town for a member of the town to try and become mayor?
It's more related to my feeling that people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role. But since a lot of people are doing it, I might have to reconsider that stance. I also don't recall myself stating that I had any problems with a member of the town trying to become the mayor. I'm not sure how you inferred that.
Ummmm, how are townies supposed to actively try and become mayor without nominating themselves? Also, you haven't explained why it is Bad for a player to sell themselves anyway.

You are doing what monkey and cathart were doing. Throwing a blanket suspicion on people for doing an action with no real justification for why it is bad.

Hmmmm... Kyle hasn't posted yet (I think?).

DDD, how do you feel about Monkey, the people on his wagon, and MIC, who jumped off the wagon?
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:09 pm

Post by Hoopla »

The purpose of a guarenteed alignment choosing the mayor means if it's town, we know motivations are pure. Yes, that player could still be wrong, but I'd favour one confirmed town player's choice, over a whole town suspectable to manipulation.

I quoted stats from the last 64 games for a reason. In all of these games, only 13 times has scum been lynched Day 1. This is easily worse than random, and illustrates how simple it is for scum to steer wagons on Day 1.

The mayor mechanic is opposite to this. It's about getting a majority on a town player. I think it will be easier for scum to steer these wagons, as there is less emphasis on cases. I expect the mayor to be selected mostly on reputation (on D1 anyway), and that could go to several players. It's a better than average chance we end up with a scum mayor because there is no expectation to explain reasoning beyond reputation or disagreeing with a few posts.

Even if we don't lynch the mayor, we definitely should not choose the mayor before we collectively decide on a lynch. That's about as far as I'm prepared to compromise for now.
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:29 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Socrates wrote:Re: Hoopla's theory: I don't really see much of an issue with it. My only trepidation with it is that we are putting the decision in the hands of someone a majority of us would agree is very likely scum. That either means we are putting the decision to either scum or a player who isn't playing very well. I don't know.

One other problem: We lose all of those juicy connections we could go back and look at later in the game if we don't elect the old fashioned way. Right now we essentially have two lanes of people forming connections with each other (votes to lynch and votes to become mayor).
We don't lose that many connections - the only one we're eliminating is the mayor lane on D1. Regardless, I think quite a few players may find it difficult spotting scum influence on mayor wagons. It is many times more fraught with WIFOM and guess games (especially on D1), as there is less importance on the outcome of the wagon than a regular lynching wagon. The stances scum could take to the mayor wagons seem highly variable. I don't even know how I'd pick off scum from mayor wagons, as it's the opposite of a normal wagon which is where everyone has honed their radars.

But it is a double-edged sword - becoming mayor will come with heavy scrutiny. I can imagine some scum players may feel the extra power of a vote might not be worth the attention, especially early in the game.
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:44 pm

Post by Hoopla »

By the way, I'm still relying on library internet until my connection at home is fixed. I'll be offering more than theory once that happens (I know I have a question or two waiting for me). Thanks!
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:57 pm

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

Hoopla wrote:The purpose of a guarenteed alignment choosing the mayor means if it's town, we know motivations are pure. Yes, that player could still be wrong, but I'd favour one confirmed town player's choice, over a whole town suspectable to manipulation.
I'm sorry, I think I missed the part on how we are supposed to garauntee someone's alignment at this point in the game?
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:07 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

If the person we lynch day 1 is the mayor, they will then hand the mayor over to someone else, and since they will have flipped, we will know who the new mayor is.
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:08 pm

Post by SerialClergyman »

Ebwop that last bit should be.

'we will know the alignment of the person choosing who is mayor for d2.
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