Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[Vaporeonage]

1 How is the saying wrong? It was in Burn After Reading WATCH THE MOVIE DAMMIT!!!

2 Whats wrong with my vote? Did I accidentally hurt your ego with it?

[Pomegranate]

My top suspect is me.

Well, no, my top suspect is really everyone else. Right now it seems like a personality war is going down. And a lot of flinging of the term 'scummy'. Thing is, this is my first time playing and I'm rather unsure of myself and how I should go about evaluating people. I find a lot of people suspicious, but as it stands, I don't really know how people behave when they're hiding their scumminess, so I'm taking a bit of 'they seem somewhat suspicious' with 'evaluating others' arguments' and 'stand back and watch'.

BTW, the 2/9 probability of scumminess for any individual is an incorrect statistic. The proper ratio is 17/72. Since the first choice of 1/9 is, well, one out of nine players can be the first scum. The second choice cannot be the first, so one out of the remaining eight can be the second scum. Thus, 1/9+1/8=17/72. This is a slightly higher ratio than 2/9 (0.236 versus 0.222). It doesn't change the fact that everyone is equally likely to be scum, but this is a very common error in calculating probability in discrete (countable) situations.

Sorry about the mathematics. I understand how the probability was incorrect, but the point still stands.

About scumhunting:

Scum are aiming to survive. That's all they care about. Therefore, they need to avoid being lynched, because that is the only way for us to kill them. So scum are trying not to get lynched.

Now imagine you're scum (unless you actually are, in which case it might be easier for you): To avoid being lynched, you need to stay under the radar. So you go with the flow. A bandwagon forms, so you jump on it. Because that's that the townies are doing. (Unless it's on your scumbuddy, which is a different discussion.) You pretend to scumhunt, but don't present anything original, for two reasons-

What if someone disagrees, a bandwagon forms and you get lynched?
Why actually scumhunt when you don't have to? Everyone else is trying to find scum, but you're not.

But you still need to go through the motions- ask questions, place votes, etc. Because otherwise you'll be lynched.

And that's the view that scum have of the game. So we, the town, look for signs of it- the scummy behavior. Lurking, which is not posting in the game for a large enough period of time (a few days) without mentioning it in-thread, is scummy. Active lurking is posting, but not anything of substance.

But townies lurk too. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's scum lurking, or a townie that's busy with his real life. So it's up to each townie to judge for himself who's scum, and who's not.

Of course, there are more things scum do, but I can't cover them all. Often in Newbie games, these are the most common.

Here is a list of scumtells. If you have questions on them, ask.

Appeal to authority - This is when a player who is more experienced than you suggests that it is more experienced than you.

Appeal to emotion - This is when a player provides a (usually unsolicited) reason that it might be town.

Buddying - This is when someone defends a player that you think you have a pretty good case on.

Chainsaw defense - This is like buddying, but the guy you're attacking is still scum. Seriously, people, even the guy who published this tell admits that it doesn't work when both players are still alive.

Defending known scum - A strong tell. Much more reliable than distancing from or ignoring known scum, but a combination spread throughout the game is even better.

Defensiveness - This is when a player defends itself.

Deliberately acting scummy - This is when a person admits to doing something that you believe to be a scumtell.

Distancing from known scum - A strong tell. Much more reliable than defending or ignoring known scum, but a combination spread throughout the game is even better.

Hypocrisy - This is when someone is on a bad wagon, but then the next day acts like people on that wagon are more likely to be scum.

Ignoring known scum - A strong tell. Much more reliable than defending or distancing from known scum, but a combination spread throughout the game is even better.

Knowing too much - See buddying. Only scum could know that the person you are attacking is really town.

Leading the town - This is when people keep nodding along to what a player says, but you can't logically disagree with it either.

Lying - If someone is caught giving two different excuses for a behavior in two different posts, it must be policy lynched on sight regardless of anything else it has done.

Rushing the day - This is when someone tries to achieve a lynch.

Selective scumhunting - This is the exact same thing as tunnelvision, but tunnelvision refers to stupid townies. Selective scumhunting, on the other hand, is a scumtell.

Setting up mislynches - This is when someone is suspicious of multiple players at the same time.

Unexplained voting - This is when a player explains its vote in a separate post, or votes right below a supposedly scummy post its target made.

Useless to us now - This is when a player has been outed as a power role. If it's telling the truth, scum will just nightkill it anyway.

Vote-hopping - This is when someone moves its vote.

WIFOM - Your case might be right, so someone bringing up alternate explanations counts as this.

[RayFrost]

The above should be taken with a grain of salt.

There was quite a bit of talk in the thread where that was posted that expands and adjusts the view on the tells.

[Pomegranate]

Yes. If I can find the thread, I'll post a link to it.

[RayFrost]

Dictionary of "tells"

[Pomegranate]

That means I credited it to the wrong person- Xyl, though it should've been Ether.

Thanks for getting the link, RF!

[RayFrost]

No problem.

[xRECKONERx]

D1 Vote Count #4

RayFrost (2): ThetaSigma, Vaporeonage
Pomegranate (2): Honest Abel, Hetemens
Honest Abel (1): Riza
ThetaSigma (1): RayFrost

Not Voting (3): JarcLovesCinn, chauchaudotcom, Pomegranate

Deadline: January 29, 2010 at 2:00PM EST

[Riza]

Riza - What's your experience with mafia? What is your view of Pom?

My experience with the mafia? I've read a couple of themed games on another forum that I frequently visit. That's about it. XD
I don't think Pom seems scummy at all. She seems to be taking the first day lynch slowly, not wanting to quicklynch, but I think that most scum would want to vote quickly. I'm sorry if that didn't come out too right, haha.
But, I'm going to

Unvote:Honest Abel

since his explanation seemed pretty believable to me. I still have to think about who to vote for, though.[/b]

[JarcLovesCinn]

JarcLovesCinn - What's your view on Frost's argument about both Pomegranate and Theta?

I was getting the feeling the Frost was beeing quite agressive and didnt quite understand where it was all coming from. I dunno if this is how he usually is or how he types but I was kind of getting a bad vibe off of some of his posts. Then again the same went for Poms responses imo, again I might misinterprete forum typing but was detecting alot of sarcasm. I figured it was some sort of SEvsIC power struggle ;p. As for Theta I felt that Frost was just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. Playing with peoples emotions are we? . But it seems that things have cooled down between all of them.

If you want the shorter answer I didn't get any scummy vibes out of those clashes. Seemed more like a small group of people that wants to prove their superiority.

I'm not a big fan of the same 2 people posting right after one another it makes it harder to compare actions versus other people since the only imput we're getting right now is petty arguing imo.

[chauchaudotcom]

The above should be taken with a grain of salt.

qft.

Riza, you've barely posted and have been labeled a lurker in my book. How does that make you feel? Now that Honest is out of your top who would you pursue next?

Also, for the record, not advocating lurking is one thing, yes, but dragging out the day is another. I'm not saying that's what Pom was doing but Riza's post just caused this to pop in my head so I figured I should get it out now. Getting information is crucial but if you drag out the day unnecessarily it can often kill both activity and interest which is oftentimes a far worse scenario for town. Just an fyi.

Jarc, if you were forced to vote someone off right now who would it be?

Pom, page five into the game and I have seen no scum hunting from you. What say you to this, particularly after your scumtell post?

[Honest Abel]

Sorry I've been missing the last couple pages of discussion, I've had a lot of work.

Reading what has transpired:

RayFrost became aggressive (even though he said he was typing in caps to calm himself down, his accusations and reasoning were pretty accusatory). Still he's criticizing a lot of people's actions in a condescending manner. I'm not sure if he's doing this to prove that he's town (because scum wouldn't be such cocks to other people) or if he's scum trying to make us think he's not afraid to offend us. Another thing worth mention about RayFrost is that he's been going after several people in a very short timeframe. I'm not sure if it's because he sees something in the victim's post that tips him off very early that they're pro-town, or if it's because he's trying to draw a lot of reactions out of various people to increase the chances of an innocent reacting in a way that makes us think he/she is scum.

ThetaSigma, to me, is hard to read because he's been putting his objective reasoning skills and knowledge of probability, etc., to the forefront, shielding him from an emotional read. I find this difficult to interpret because it could either be that he's genuinely interested in helping the town using his deductive talents, or he's purposefully using his references to hide his emotions and to talk without saying anything too assumptive that might give away his scumminess. I'm leaning toward the former, but hopefully that's not just because so many other people are hard to read right now.

Pomegranate has been cautious, yes, or attempting to appear cautious. At the moment I can't tell which it is.

I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs. It'd be very easy for a more experienced player to mislead us like that. Both he and Pomegranate are in a good position to cover up their scumminess because A) Explaining rules to newbs is a very easy way to buddy up, B) They know the scumtells so well that they likely wouldn't commit them and might be actively trying to do the opposite, C) The sheer act of posting common scumtells and explaining the game gives them an easy source of material to post and "spam" the thread with, making them seem active and helpful even though they are just quoting other sources, which is very simple to do.

I'm sorry that I'm so uncertain of everything I just posted, but I'm still trying to get a grasp on how to properly distinguish scum behavior from town behavior. My hope, though, is that something I've said will turn on a light above another townie's head.

[Honest Abel]

Of course I'm not saying Ray and Pom are posting helpful stuff because they are scum, but I'm pointing out the possibility and urging newbs not to forget that they could be trying to murder us while helping us learn.

[JarcLovesCinn]

If I was 'forced' that would mean that I wouldn't be basing my vote on who I think is actual scum, since I still havn't figured that out and am currently not voting.
Rather, beeing 'forced' would make me try to vote someone out based on their personality, or who's rubbing me the wrong way. I really don't want to go down that road since alot of people rub me the wrong way IRL, so far in this game there are three people that have been doing that ; RayFrost, Pome and Theta.

With that in mind, I'd find it more appealing for the town to keep experienced players that could help us later in the game, reducing my vote to Theta.

But you won't see me cast a vote for him - or anyone for that matter - right away just with that reasoning. Currently there's just too little information to work on, but I must say that I like your posts, asking different questions to different people. It makes people stay on topic. The only positive posts I've read were answers to your questions.

[ThetaSigma]

ThetaSigma, to me, is hard to read because he's been putting his objective reasoning skills and knowledge of probability, etc., to the forefront, shielding him from an emotional read. I find this difficult to interpret because it could either be that he's genuinely interested in helping the town using his deductive talents, or he's purposefully using his references to hide his emotions and to talk without saying anything too assumptive that might give away his scumminess. I'm leaning toward the former, but hopefully that's not just because so many other people are hard to read right now.

If you want an emotional read, you already hit the nail on the head -- I hide behind my brain to protect myself. Doesn't matter if it's this game or another or (especially) in person, that's my defense re: social anxiety (it doesn't help that this term is full of very heavy classes). If you feel this is indicative of scum, not much I can do about that. I'd hate to be lynched, no matter who I'm playing.

*the more you know music plays*

RayFrost became aggressive (even though he said he was typing in caps to calm himself down, his accusations and reasoning were pretty accusatory). Still he's criticizing a lot of people's actions in a condescending manner.
(snip)
I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs.

I think these two observations regarding RayFrost are quite linked -- he's been accusatory, condescending, aggressive... And speaks of scumtells and who is and is not scum as though he is the foremost authority. Personally, I honestly find this suspicious. It really is a combination of I'm-right-you're-wrong, I'm-experienced-you're-not, and This-person-said-one-thing-they-are-totally-scum.

...On the other hand, he could just be a dick. Who knows.

On a side note, I do have a query for you more experienced players. How oft does scum target scum? As in, a particular behind the scenes deal wherein scum agree to sacrifice one of their own in order to appear truly pro-town?

[ThetaSigma]

ThetaSigma, to me, is hard to read because he's been putting his objective reasoning skills and knowledge of probability, etc., to the forefront, shielding him from an emotional read. I find this difficult to interpret because it could either be that he's genuinely interested in helping the town using his deductive talents, or he's purposefully using his references to hide his emotions and to talk without saying anything too assumptive that might give away his scumminess. I'm leaning toward the former, but hopefully that's not just because so many other people are hard to read right now.

If you want an emotional read, you already hit the nail on the head -- I hide behind my brain to protect myself. Doesn't matter if it's this game or another or (especially) in person, that's my defense re: social anxiety (it doesn't help that this term is full of very heavy classes). If you feel this is indicative of scum, not much I can do about that. I'd hate to be lynched, no matter who I'm playing.

*the more you know music plays*

RayFrost became aggressive (even though he said he was typing in caps to calm himself down, his accusations and reasoning were pretty accusatory). Still he's criticizing a lot of people's actions in a condescending manner.
(snip)
I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs.

I think these two observations regarding RayFrost are quite linked -- he's been accusatory, condescending, aggressive... And speaks of scumtells and who is and is not scum as though he is the foremost authority. Personally, I honestly find this suspicious. It really is a combination of I'm-right-you're-wrong, I'm-experienced-you're-not, and This-person-said-one-thing-they-are-totally-scum.

...On the other hand, he could just be a dick. Who knows.

On a side note, I do have a query for you more experienced players. How oft does scum target scum? As in, a particular behind the scenes deal wherein scum agree to sacrifice one of their own in order to appear truly pro-town?

[ThetaSigma]

oops. pardon my double post. Time for me to look sheepish.
(execute sheepish look)

[chauchaudotcom]

Of course I'm not saying Ray and Pom are posting helpful stuff because they are scum, but I'm pointing out the possibility and urging newbs not to forget that they could be trying to murder us while helping us learn.

I believe Pom already stated this. In the end, the chances of any of us being scum are the same. Hence, you need to learn to distinguish from actual game play and game mechanics. But you are correct about the dangers of ICs and SEs. Naturally, we are more experienced so we will be able to cover our tracks much better.

That being said, take the list of scum tells with a grain of salt. For those of you looking for 'solid evidence', it isn't going to happen. Much of this game rests on looking for logical inconsistencies, observing opponents and gut feelings. If something seems odd or feels out of place to you, question it, pursue it, etc etc. Don't wait for scum to slip. Scum hunt and force them to slip.

Honest Abel - Does aggression necessarily imply scummy?

Jarc - Fair enough. Given that there is little information to work with, how do you propose we get more information out in the open?

Theta - What is your definition of scum hunting theta? And like I asked Abel, do you find aggressive play scummy?

And speaks of scumtells and who is and is not scum as though he is the foremost authority.

Personality and attitude aside, doesn't Pom do this as well? So what makes Frost's comments versus Pom's more suspicious? (Personal vendettas aside of course)

On a side note, I do have a query for you more experienced players. How oft does scum target scum? As in, a particular behind the scenes deal wherein scum agree to sacrifice one of their own in order to appear truly pro-town?

You mean like distancing themselves? Very often. If they see their buddy start to fall they'll probably join or start a bandwagon on them. In terms of agreeing to sacrifice their partners and whatnot I'm sure it happens though I'm not quite sure how often.

But what is the purpose of your questioning at this point in time? As in, how would this information help you in terms of your scum hunting?

I make it a general rule not to discuss possible scum buddies until after we've caught at least one scum. But that's just a personal rule. There are people who disagree with me and find buddy speculating fairly useful. I think it's important later game, but early d1? No. It only serves to bring unnecessary confusion and a hell of a lot of wifom.

[Honest Abel]

In the end, the chances of any of us being scum are the same. Hence, you need to learn to distinguish from actual game play and game mechanics.

So you're saying the difference between newbs and experienced players is totally negligible in a game where one of the only certainties is that there are newbs and experienced players? I definitely disagree. Unless there is some kind of rule that forbids SEs and ICs from using our inexperience to their advantage, we should definitely consider how an experienced player will act differently in a game with 2/3 newbs compared to a game with no newbs. SE and IC are indeed roles, though not in the same sense as mafia and townie, that are included in this F11 setup with a specific aim of getting the games on-track and being able to answer questions and lead by example. Being a newb, I'm not burdened by any of that. In the end, I don't know what the distinction means or if it guarantees any specific ways the players will act in response to the disparity in experience, but it's something to consider when you weigh the options concerning WIFOM or anything else.

Honest Abel - Does aggression necessarily imply scummy?

No, and I didn't say it did. In fact, I already weighed both possibilities concerning an aggressive player and nobody has had a chance to reply to my pondering. So I will turn the question around to you: Does aggression necessarily imply scummy?

[chauchaudotcom]

How in the world did you get that sort of conclusion from what I said??

What I meant is there is an equal chance of an SE/IC being scum as well as a newbie. Then after wards I specifically agreed with you saying that you need to be more careful with SE/IC players because we are more experienced and can hence play better as scum.

SEs and ICs are bounded by rules when it comes to game mechanics. We CANNOT lie to you about game mechanics. But otherwise, everything else is fair game.

No, and I didn't say it did. In fact, I already weighed both possibilities concerning an aggressive player and nobody has had a chance to reply to my pondering. So I will turn the question around to you: Does aggression necessarily imply scummy?

I never claimed that you said it. I was merely asking a question. Why so defensive?

And no, I do not think aggression is scummy. Aggression are characteristics of personality and play style which could be used by both townies and scum. Misplaced aggression can eventually become anti-town but anti-town and scummy are two separate matters.

[ThetaSigma]

Theta - What is your definition of scum hunting theta? And like I asked Abel, do you find aggressive play scummy?

I am currently working on formulating a definition of scumhunting as application versus theory. How it actually functions in-game as opposed to a list of tells and common practices. So far it seems to consist of delicate and not-so-delicate prodding of various players to try and get them to slip up. however, the application of "slip up" is again going to be quite different from a list of theoretical tells. Aggressive play being scummy? I believe that depends on the manner of aggression. if someone is, say, aggressively scumhunting, as in working everyone in the forum over on a constant basis with probing questions and comments, no, not scummy. If someone is being aggressive in their wording and actions, could go either way, since I agree with Ray's analysis, quoted and analyzed slightly below.

As far as Pom versus Ray, I'm afraid it may be largely a personality thing. As I said, I don't know if it's just his personality or not. But I can actually sum it up with Ray's own words --

By Being Extremely Aggressive And Domineering, It Is Very Easy To Cause People (Particularly Newbies) To Back Down From An Argument.

In Addition, It Can Be Relatively Simple To Play Aggressively And Seem To Be Actively Scumhunting When You Are Just Taking An Abrasive Tone With Small Attacks On Individuals.

I Do Not Find It Helpful For Town To Be Domineering In This Way. Although I Do Not Know If Pomegranate Intends To Do This, I Feel That It Is Important To Make The Possibility Known Before It Happens.

I wouldn't say Pom isn't domineering, or hasn't been, but I would disagree entirely that she had been agressive. On the other hand, RayFrost has been both domineering and agressive. He warns us against this possibility, says that it is unhelpful for the town, and does it himself, in the midst of pointing this out. As he says in his second paragraph there, there's a line between aggressively scumhunting and just being aggressive to other players (and I already wrote my view of that) -- I read Ray as simply aggressive and abrasive. I don't see much in his posts other than finger-pointing and inflaming comments.
I also find it interesting in the last paragraph that, this was while Ray's vote was on Pom, yet the final paragraph is written in a very, very strong way -- highlighting that Pom is town. The first two are written as general advice, but the third is the only one that references both Pom directly and Town directly. While it could be a writing flaw, those sorts of slips can be incredibly telling. I think Freud was a quack, but I'm speaking of a slip somewhat similar to his. This is absolutely fascinating and the implications could be quite heavy.

But what is the purpose of your questioning at this point in time? As in, how would this information help you in terms of your scum hunting?

I did mean outright sacrifice, not just distancing or bandwagoning. It's frankly just a question, and only that. Curiousity killed the Theta, you know.

[Riza]

The above should be taken with a grain of salt.

qft.

Riza, you've barely posted and have been labeled a lurker in my book. How does that make you feel? Now that Honest is out of your top who would you pursue next?

Also, for the record, not advocating lurking is one thing, yes, but dragging out the day is another. I'm not saying that's what Pom was doing but Riza's post just caused this to pop in my head so I figured I should get it out now. Getting information is crucial but if you drag out the day unnecessarily it can often kill both activity and interest which is oftentimes a far worse scenario for town. Just an fyi.

I guess my inactivity would be a result of time-zones and/or the fact that I'm always off when others are on. I don't feel too bad about being labeled as a lurker because I know it's not my fault, I would post more often if I could, but I simply can't. Anyway, in regards to who to vote for next, I was honestly going to vote for RayFrost because of his aggressiveness but now that others have been discussing the reason for his attitude, I'm still confused on who to vote for.

1. Scum wish to avoid negative attention (newb-scum may extend this to -all- attention)

I took a look back in the thread and this post made me think. Ray is probably giving many players in this game a negative image of himself. He's been aggressive, accusatory, and whatnot, making people think he is scum. But since scum "wish to avoid attention", maybe he's doing on purpose to prove that he's not scummy at all. Then again, he could be going for "all attention", but I doubt that's true.
Or maybe, like what Theta said, maybe he

is

just a dick or naturally agressive.

[Pomegranate]

I don't think Pom seems scummy at all. She seems to be taking the first day lynch slowly, not wanting to quicklynch, but I think that most scum would want to vote quickly. I'm sorry if that didn't come out too right, haha.

Just pointing out, this

is

extremely early for a lynch. But I do agree that dragging out the day muddies the info we have, and all the scummy behavior gets swallowed up into the discussion.

This:

Getting information is crucial but if you drag out the day unnecessarily it can often kill both activity and interest which is oftentimes a far worse scenario for town.

I figured it was some sort of SEvsIC power struggle

I didn't see it as such, and certainly hope it wasn't. I'm not that petty.

Pom, page five into the game and I have seen no scum hunting from you. What say you to this, particularly after your scumtell post?

What say I? Scumhunt!

I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs. It'd be very easy for a more experienced player to mislead us like that. Both he and Pomegranate are in a good position to cover up their scumminess because A) Explaining rules to newbs is a very easy way to buddy up, B) They know the scumtells so well that they likely wouldn't commit them and might be actively trying to do the opposite, C) The sheer act of posting common scumtells and explaining the game gives them an easy source of material to post and "spam" the thread with, making them seem active and helpful even though they are just quoting other sources, which is very simple to do.

Yes, in theory I could mislead, and I can see how it could be hard to trust me sometimes. Trusting me without thinking about whether I was scum would be, shall I say, dumb. Every player is a suspect until he/she is dead and has flipped, or is (if there is a cop,) cop confirmed.

If you want an emotional read, you already hit the nail on the head -- I hide behind my brain to protect myself. Doesn't matter if it's this game or another or (especially) in person, that's my defense re: social anxiety (it doesn't help that this term is full of very heavy classes). If you feel this is indicative of scum, not much I can do about that. I'd hate to be lynched, no matter who I'm playing.

ThetaSigma, this is a problem. Mafia isn't an equation, and scumhunting isn't done by following specific steps. There is intuition involved, and people should pay attention to their gut vibes. You need to analyze things the way you see them. Try. If you really can't do, then replace out, but I'm sure you can find your own playstyle. (Whoa, that sounded cliche at the end there.)

...On the other hand, he could just be a dick. Who knows.

I think it's just his personality, for now. I've played a few games with RayFrost before, and he has a somewhat sarcastic personality. If he's continually aggressive though, don't think I'll ignore him.

In the end, the chances of any of us being scum are the same. Hence, you need to learn to distinguish from actual game play and game mechanics.

So you're saying the difference between newbs and experienced players is totally negligible in a game where one of the only certainties is that there are newbs and experienced players? I definitely disagree. Unless there is some kind of rule that forbids SEs and ICs from using our inexperience to their advantage, we should definitely consider how an experienced player will act differently in a game with 2/3 newbs compared to a game with no newbs. SE and IC are indeed roles, though not in the same sense as mafia and townie, that are included in this F11 setup with a specific aim of getting the games on-track and being able to answer questions and lead by example. Being a newb, I'm not burdened by any of that. In the end, I don't know what the distinction means or if it guarantees any specific ways the players will act in response to the disparity in experience, but it's something to consider when you weigh the options concerning WIFOM or anything else.

You're right, you do have to take into account that though SEs and ICs are here to help, we're also playing to our win condition.

1. Scum wish to avoid negative attention (newb-scum may extend this to -all- attention)

I took a look back in the thread and this post made me think. Ray is probably giving many players in this game a negative image of himself. He's been aggressive, accusatory, and whatnot, making people think he is scum. But since scum "wish to avoid attention", maybe he's doing on purpose to prove that he's not scummy at all. Then again, he could be going for "all attention", but I doubt that's true.

This is an example of WIFOM.

"He's attracting a lot of attention to himslf therefore he's probably not scum... but maybe he's just doing it to make us think he's not scum...."

Also, it didn't seem to me like he was trying to attract a lot of negative attention. Attention isn't always something scum want to avoid. Basically: Use your judgement regarding context.

Also, this is a good example of the way that different people have different sorts of playstyles, also referred to as meta. For some people, being aggressive is a scumtell, while for others it's not.

--

JarcLovesCinn seems a little indecisive, but I'm like that too sometimes.

ThetaSigma needs to stop using his brain as a shield.

For now-

Vote: ThetaSigma

. I'm waiting for you to think.

[Honest Abel]

I never claimed that you said it. I was merely asking a question. Why so defensive?

Um, because my previous post already gave my complete thoughts on the question. I'm not sure why you'd ask that if you had read my post. Thanks for your thoughts on it, though.

As for the part about you warning about SE/ICs, yeah, I don't really know how I missed the second half of your paragraph. I guess the first half ticked me off somehow. I know the odds are the same, kthanks.

[Honest Abel]

Things surely are getting a little muddled now, as Pomegranate points out. It is also in the interest of scum to muddle things up since, as was said, it causes the scummy behavior to get lost in the discussion, causes a loss of interest in the game, which is generally a worse situation for town. I don't feel like a newb could have orchestrated that so soon.

Pomegranate has been trying to pacify things without really taking issue with anyone in particular (no scumhunting, as chauchau was keen to point out). She tells me I'm right that while SE/ICs are here to help, they are playing to their win condition. She also seems to be pacifying RayFrost by telling us, in an almost apologetic tone, that his aggression is probably simply the result of his personality. Pomegranate, you've just been too nice and it's clear you're doing your best to placate others while using simply my observation that TS has a brain as a reason behind your vote. I don't dig it.

For emphasis:

Unvote

;

Vote Pomegranate