926 A Game of Thrones Mafia - Over.

[Seacore]

... except for the Imp. Tyrion rocks!

[Faraday]

Vote Count 1.2: The

Your mod is currently reading

Dust of Dreams

by Steve Erikson[/i]

' votecount.

Bogre (1) - [Kinetic]
Locke Lamora (1) - [Mina]
Raivann (1) - [The Inquisition]
Mina (2) - [Raivann, MacavityLock]
Kinetic (2) [Xvart, Seacore]

Not voting:

(5) [ Locke Lamora, Bogre, TheButtonMen, Heliograph, Miserable at best]

Bogre has untill later to pick up his PM. Pwnman is lined up as a replacement anyway

Deadline: March 3rd @ 6pm GMT

[TheButtonmen]

Apologies, I hadn't seen the game start.

FOS: Kinetic

, as people have already said Mass name claiming i entirely worthless with this setting and he keeps pushing for it. He's also voting for someone who didn't even confirm not one of the people who has confirmed but never posted.

Vote:Locke Lamora

for being first on the list of people not posting yet.

[Bogre]

Howdy guys.

Vote: Kinetic

Nameclaiming suggestion, and the voting me for being the last to confirm. I confirmed after I read my role PM. I find it strange that you are 'getting annoyed' by that. What is your reasoning that last to confirm is over 50% likely to be scum?

[The Inquisition]

The thing about nameclaiming is that while I don't think it'll help us decide alignment, it may well out power roles. I find it far more likely that Faraday has given major characters power roles and more minor ones vanilla than I do that we can guess anything about alignment from a name claim. Obviously outing power roles is negative at this point.

This said, I don't get the impression Kinetic is anything less than sincere, and simply being wrong about the correct strategy is not necessarily scummy. Rather, I think Bogre's "easy vote" is scummy, along with his response to kinetic "getting annoyed" at bogre's non-confirmation. I don't put any stock in the idea that the last to confirm is scum, but it's not an unreasonable RVS vote, and I think bogre picking up on it may well indicate a nervousness that he may have actually made a tell... especially from someone wearing a scum hunter badge.

Therefore:

unvote

vote: Bogre

[xvart]

You're cute.

Thanks.

Read my meta, k thx bai.

What exactly would I be looking for in your "meta"? A pattern of fence-sitting on your own game direction suggestions?

xvart.

[Raivann]

@TheButtonmen- What do you think of my case against Mina ?

[Mina]

(EBWOPreview: I was writing this and the next post before Raivann's most recent post. Talk about ironic.)

Whee, we have more company !

Who I'm going to welcome to the thread with a

Vote:TheButtonmen

. Thank you for playing.

FOS: Kinetic, as people have already said Mass name claiming i entirely worthless with this setting and he keeps pushing for it. He's also voting for someone who didn't even confirm not one of the people who has confirmed but never posted.

Vote:Locke Lamora

for being first on the list of people not posting yet.

This is a terrible post.

1) You're going after very easy targets--Kinetic and the low posters. Seacore and xvart sound genuine in their Kinetic suspicions. But I think your FOS is more opportunistic than Bogre's vote even though it came first. At least Bogre had a reason for singling out Kinetic (even if that reason was a bit OMGUS). And you FOS him for the reasons "people have already said" rather than vote him and raise his hackles.

2) What do you mean, "keeps pushing it"? Most of the criticism against Kinetic is is that he brought up a bad idea, but is just sort of twiddling his thumbs and not doing much to push it forward.

3) You realize that since the Bogre vote was the first post of the game...um,

everyone

was a non-poster at that point?

4) Voting for a non-poster--and coincidentally, the only one with a vote on him at the time (mine)--is just about the safest thing you can do with your vote. And considering you were one of them until that one post, your anti-latecomer crusade rings false.

[Mina]

Well,I guess it's just the five of us...

Of the people posting (which aren't a lot) for some reason Mina is peaking my radar. Not sure why yet though, but I'm going to keep an eye on it.

That's because Mina is caught scum.

Unvote, Vote:Mina

For fencesitting, then when questioned about it she tried too hard to appease and took a hard stance.

Raivann, you're frustrating.

You: Here are quotes that prove you're fencesitting.
Me: No, actually here's what I meant by those quotes.
You: So you were fencesitting, but now you've STOPPED fencesitting under pressure. DIESCUMDIE

Read between the lines of my first posts. I think it's pretty obvious that I'm against the idea from the very beginning. Firstly, nameclaiming almost never helps the town in a well-designed set-up, and secondly...well, at this point, everyone and their mother has explained why it might help the scum. But I made a very conscious decision not to lecture people on Mafia Theory 101, but to sit back and watch what Mr. Two Scummy Awards was up to, whether people agreed with or opposed such a controversial plan or just went along with the flow of the town, and whether anyone betrayed knowledge of scum role PMs.

[Mina]

On the nameclaim:

I've already thought about a lot of the positives and negatives that have been presented. This isn't my first rodeo.

I have a couple of ideas and I'm unsure if they will work or not, but to be sure a name claim is needed. I don't think the name claim in and of itself is going to out scum, nor do I think its going to out power roles simply because this setting it could be very easy to hide them.

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you know, if you're going to suggest something as controversial as a massclaim on D1, it'd be nice if you told us what those ideas are, rather than wave your hands mysteriously and say, "I have PLANS brewing."

Could you give us concrete examples of those ideas? I haven't meta'd you (the Search function is down), but I think xvart has a good point. Please explain just what useful information you can get from a mass nameclaim.

[Miserable At Best]

Hey Everyone

Ah god, I swear I can be completely oblivious sometimes. Sorry I haven't posted yet, I was working on Wednesday and kept getting sidetracked yesterday with minor school work stuff. Hopefully I'll be more active from here on out though. I'm going to be responding to stuff as I see them, so if anything seems off by the time I post it, it's probably either because I jumbled my thoughts or that I was responding to things post by post as I saw them.

Who thinks a mass claim might break the game? I have a suspicion and I'd like to know who we are playing with here.

I don't really feel like it'd break the game, but I'm not in the slightest interested to see where this leads just quite yet. All you'd get is something along the lines of hints in terms of who a power character may/may not be. This seems somewhat suspicious, imo, but nothing off the wall.

I'd prefer it to go through, but I'm not going to push it much harder than saying what I think.

What exactly is the reason in which you prefer it to go through? Is it so you can get the necessary information faster, rather than having to wait the time to actually get it?

You seem to be fencesitting. Why's that?

I was going to ask the same exact thing, but then noticed that you posted it and so I'll just quote this.

Mina

- you're already contradicting yourself and stumbling over your feet, and we're not even three pages in. I'm also having a hard time following your posts/arguments, but maybe that's just because I've had a pretty long day, who knows. As Kinetic stated, you're peeking my radar as well at the moment. Is there any reason that you're already slipping up? Perhaps the early pressure is already making you crumble? Either way, you seem to have cleared up what you meant for now.

@Bogre

: Your first post, and it really hasn't said anything in terms of the game/gameplay... What are your thoughts on some people thus far? Why was your first post in the game (somewhat) extremely defensive in terms of someone who voted for you? It was the RVS after all.

Anywho, sorry if none of that makes sense/some of it was solved already. Other than that,

Vote: Bogre

on the basis that a whole discussion had been taking place, and he barely had anything to add other than a defensive attitude and an overreaction to the situation.

[Locke Lamora]

Hi everyone, sorry for the lack of posting, I started a new job on Wednesday and haven't had any time at all to post. Proper post to come tomorrow.

[TheButtonmen]

Unvote:

@Raivann:

Not seeing it sorry.

[Kinetic]

So, I was wondering why everyone was acting so scummy, and then I looked at all of the dates everyone's accounts were made on. Save MacLock they're all 2009...

...

That explains a lot.

Here, necessary reading for you guys.

Wheel of Time (The game I modded)

Freaktown,the main reason I won the scummy attached to my name. If you read any full game by me, read this one.

Tar game. If you think Tar is a "bad mod" you don't know anything.

Breaking a game doesn't require a mistake on the part of the mod. Most of the time it is something they merely overlooked or didn't realize was important. Most of the time it isn't important until you look at it from another direction.

I have a few other games that you could look up that are semi-important to understanding my meta, but those are the big ones. Both Babylon and Freaktown were horribly complex games that I figured out flaws in. I could tell you what they were but it would be better if you read them on your own to find them out so you aren't biased by my interpretation.

-----

For clarification's sake, since some of you feel I'm either "pushing or fencesitting", I'll restate my position again.

I have some information, and I have a couple theories (that no, I will not divulge) that may help figure some things out about the game.

No one single name claim is going to prove or disprove my theories, they rely more on something that would require a more full claim.

I think right now might be a good time to throw a wrench in the gears, so to speak, but I'm not sure and I want some discussion on the topic. I think its a good idea, but I want to hear what some more of the objections are right now before I decide if its seriously worth pushing or not.

Right now the objections I'm seeing are mostly just those of ignorance and the fact that players are immediately labeling it as scummy and even voting without attempting to see if they are in err is very telling for other reasons.

That being said I'm not sure I've heard anything that has dissuaded to believe this is not a good idea yet, and I'm going to have to re-read everyone's objections a few times to try and separate the motives and actual facts of the objections.

----------

Many of you have hit points that might be important to name claims but don't understand your own points. Let me explain them to you.

Most likely you are almost all power roles of some sort, that is why so many of you are so rabidly against any name claim. You think it will out you or such. That isn't likely to happen because of the setting many names lend themselves to MANY different roles.

For instances: Take someone who is almost certainly not in the game like Ned Stark.

Some of the roles he could possibly fill include:
Bodyguard
Vigilante (or Justicar)
Double Voter
Cop (Investigator)
Tracker
Watcher
etc etc etc.

Many of the characters are so dynamic that stating their names has very little to do with what they could do.

-----

One other thing I'm getting annoyed at is the frequent amount of parroting that is going on. If someone states an objection that is one thing, but repeating that same objection over and over again like it is new is getting old.

If you don't have something new to bring, don't act like your vote is anything more than a tack on vote, since that is all it is.

I agree that increasing pressure on someone for more information is a viable tactic, and I'm not saying that in and of itself is scummy, but doing that and trying to say it is for other reasons or try to make it seem like it is more than that is mis-representative, especially at this stage in the game.

-----

You may ask "But why is their a vanilla townie role in the rules if there might not be any vanilla townies?". Read Wheel of Time. Faraday was in it, it is EXACTLY what I did. The game had no traditional vanilla townies (it did have power roles that were borderline useless though) but had a vanilla role PM to throw people off that trail as a red herring. I wouldn't be surprised if Faraday borrowed that concept.

The role PM had a second function, that was to explain the town win condition so that everyone knew what it was including people who did not have it.

-----

Bogre's entrance actually makes me think he might be tripped up townie who is defaulting to OMGUS. Not sure how new he is. The vote stays for now though because his actions don't completely exonerate him since at best its a null tell, albeit a newbie tell.

-----

Mina continues to creep up my radar. Her and Bog definitely are the ones who I'm least likely to put any faith in at this time.

[Raivann]

Raivann, you're frustrating.

Yeah, I wanted to apply some pressure.
I'm satisfied with your response.
I'm with you on thebuttonmen too(that sounds bad).
What was that last post? Looks like he hit submit on accident

Unvote,Vote:TheButtonmen

[MacavityLock]

Yeah, having been in two of the games that Kinetic sited, I'd have to agree that this is classic Kin. I can't see it as anything more than null.

It's important to note however that I don't see this game as being that much more complicated than most mini-themes, while those that you sited are magnitudes more complex. (The two that I were in were large themes, which are often a whole different beast.) I think a nameclaim is more likely to help scum than town at this stage of the game.

[TheButtonmen]

@Kinectic:

It's the very "dynamic" nature of the names/roles that you say will make sure power roles aren't revealed that makes me wonder about the value of a mass claim. I'm not sure we can get enough valuable data out of it to make it worthwhile as it will also create lots of useless noise. I'm not asking you to divulge your information or plans but could you explain the benifits of the mass claim vs the white noise it will create a bit farther?

@Ralvann:

Nope, thats all that was supposed to be in the post, I don't see anything in the case you made agianst Mina.

[xvart]

Here, necessary reading for you guys.

Wheel of Time (The game I modded)

Freaktown,the main reason I won the scummy attached to my name. If you read any full game by me, read this one.

Tar game. If you think Tar is a "bad mod" you don't know anything.

Breaking a game doesn't require a mistake on the part of the mod. Most of the time it is something they merely overlooked or didn't realize was important. Most of the time it isn't important until you look at it from another direction.

I have a few other games that you could look up that are semi-important to understanding my meta, but those are the big ones. Both Babylon and Freaktown were horribly complex games that I figured out flaws in. I could tell you what they were but it would be better if you read them on your own to find them out so you aren't biased by my interpretation.

You still haven't explained what I benefit I will get from reading your "meta." So what exactly am I supposed to get from "meta-ing" you? The fact that you are an awesome mod; or that you've played some large games with complicated mechanics and roles; or that you know how not to break a game; or perhaps that you have often mind blind assertions and people have followed along with you; or what? And what does thinking Tar is a bad mod have to do with anything? Who suggested that?

You told me to look into your meta after I expressed my suspicions of your intentions here:

To add to that, the sheer fact that you propose this idea, softly support it and say you don't care if it doesn't go through, but would like to see it go through anyway makes me very suspicious of your intentions. Fence sitting on your own proposal is quite strange (suspicious) to me.

Unless I am totally misunderstanding your point about reading your "meta" I don't see how your links with the descriptions of each you provided goes to the original reason why you wanted me to read your other games. Now tell me exactly how reading your meta will establish more credibility to you softly supporting your own suggestion. As I asked before, in your other games, do you do this frequently with much reward?

I have some information, and I have a couple theories (that no, I will not divulge) that may help figure some things out about the game.

I will never go along on blind trust, especially on page two.

Right now the objections I'm seeing are mostly just those of ignorance and the fact that players are immediately labeling it as scummy and even voting without attempting to see if they are in err is very telling for other reasons.

It is scummy to suggest something that for all practical purposes would more than likely out power roles (or more powerful roles, as you suggest) on blind trust. If you want me to agree to a name claim you better offer something a little better than "I have some theories rolling around in my head, but I won't tell you about them."

But that's a nice way to turn the tables on those of us suspicious of you by making us look like we aren't thinking twice or second guessing ourselves on page two.

Most likely you are almost all power roles of some sort, that is why so many of you are so rabidly against any name claim. You think it will out you or such. That isn't likely to happen because of the setting many names lend themselves to MANY different roles.

For instances: Take someone who is almost certainly not in the game like Ned Stark.

Some of the roles he could possibly fill include:
Bodyguard
Vigilante (or Justicar)
Double Voter
Cop (Investigator)
Tracker
Watcher
etc etc etc.

Many of the characters are so dynamic that stating their names has very little to do with what they could do.

The point is if we all name claim who do you think is more likely to have a more powerful (or useful) role? Benjen Stark or Syrio Forel? Khal Drago or Hodor? In each of those instances, not knowing any role related information, who would you rather lose?

The point is not that we will be able to tell who has a power role and who might be vanilla, but who might have a more powerful role than someone else.

xvart.

[Kinetic]

Both Babylon and Freaktown were horribly complex games that I figured out flaws in. I could tell you what they were but it would be better if you read them on your own to find them out so you aren't biased by my interpretation.

~

fix'd- Mod

[Kinetic]

meh, mod would you mind fixing that tagging fail?

[Raivann]

Does anyone else find it strange(by strange I mean scummy) that buttonmen has posted twice since Mina's case on him and he doesn't even mention or refutiate any of her points?

While you guys are discussing mechanics, Mina and I are lynching scum.

Wagon-ho!

[Seacore]

Actually

I'm pro name claim I've decided, which is a complete flip I know.

I think we should post our names in order of the list on the OP

I will honestly be very suspicious of people I consider to be the "bad guys" in the books.
Sure, "bad guy" is a moving feast, since book 1, Jaime is painted as a bad guy, but later on he's not so bad. But anyway.

So I'm for a name claim. In the specific order. Because that way, scum have to choose, do I admit I'm Tywin Lannister? Or do I hope that "The onion knight" is not in the game and choose him. And then somebody else goes "But I'm the onion knight!" and bam! scum!

Who agrees?

[Seacore]

Also,

unvote

because now that I've stopped to think about it, name claim is good. Apologies.

Thirdly, I'm okay with doing the claim in reverse order. Since that will put me second.

[Mina]

WARNING: INCOMING WALL OF TEXT ALERT

Raivann: I'm...slightly weirded out by your sudden flip on me. But hey, the more the merrier. All aboard the TheButtonMen train! *blows whistle*

Unvote:

So, hey, you're big on pressuring all the players who've come late. You thought it was important to FoS Kinetic for "not voting for a non-poster," and to vote for one.

But apparently, Locke Lamora popping up and saying, "Hi guys, I'm still alive!" was enough for you to unvote.

Not exactly the most unrelenting pressure, but fine.

So why didn't you move your vote for Kinetic, the person you FOS'd? Or Heliograph, who

still

hasn't posted? Isn't it everyone's civic duty to vote for a non-poster? I mean, if all the non-posters are so interchangeable that you voted for the first one on the list, why not vote for the only non-poster remaining?

I found your FOS-ing a group suspect and voting for someone who wasn't around to answer back very safe. But unvoting the moment he posts a one-liner, and then being afraid to revote? I get the feeling that you're afraid to antagonize people.

-----

So, I was wondering why everyone was acting so scummy, and then I looked at all of the dates everyone's accounts were made on. Save MacLock they're all 2009...

...

That explains a lot.

Okay, now you've pissed me off.

First of all, you shouldn't judge the player by the account date. Some of the players might be alts, and others might be new to mafiascum but not to Mafia. (For example, I usually play on another site.) And I don't think that the difference between one year and two-and-a-half years of experience is astronomical. Some of the "veteran" players who are known for their personalities and for their omnipresence on this site haven't improved after dozens of games.

Second of all...I'm trying to find a nice way of putting how you're acting. That doesn't involve the words "arrogant," "condescending," or...you know, it took a lot of willpower for me to leave the last word out. This is me, making an effort to be nice. Look, I get why you're annoyed with all the opportunistic bandwagoners. But please take the time to explain just what's "ignorant" about everyone's objections instead of treating us like slow children who don't know how to play Mafia.

When I have a chance, I'll read the Freaktown game to see how you play as town--right now it's after three in the morning and I have to leave early for work tomorrow. But it would be really helpful and time-saving if you gave us concrete examples of how a nameclaim might help you break the game. I don't care if your interpretation biases it. If it does, that will tell us more about your alignment.

Mina continues to creep up my radar. Her and Bog definitely are the ones who I'm least likely to put any faith in at this time.

Could you explain just what you mean by "creeping up my radar"? Because you keep making backhanded comments about how you've got your eye on me and how no one should trust a word I say, but not once do you explain just

why

you suspect me. You seem to be more interested in planting a seed of doubt against me than gauging my reactions, too.

By the way, what do you think of TheButtonmen? He who FOSsed you, parroted everyone else's complaints about your plan, and chided you for not voting a non-poster, but voted for someone else?

(I'm

very

interested in the answer to this question.)

-----

I will never go along on blind trust, especially on page two.

It is scummy to suggest something that for all practical purposes would more than likely out power roles (or more powerful roles, as you suggest) on blind trust. If you want me to agree to a name claim you better offer something a little better than "I have some theories rolling around in my head, but I won't tell you about them."

Oh my God,

yes

. THISx100

Kinetic, I'm sure you're a good scumhunter and all, but at this point, you've suggested a plan--mass nameclaiming--that fails in 90% of set-ups. I think even without giving away character names, it's pretty easy to guess who the good guys are from the setting. You can't blame people for being a little sceptical. Show us we can trust you with your scumhunting

in this game

instead of appealing to your reputation.

But that said, xvart? Could you share your thoughts on players other than Kinetic? I agree with Raivann that a long wall-of-text war about the pros and cons of massclaiming accomplishes nothing.

[Mina]

Oh, and I meant to vote for Kinetic For proposing the name claim. If it was just a mass claim suggestion, It'd merely warrant an FOS, but the name claim is sneaky.

I really think the lannisters, plus somebody like littlefinger or grand maester pycelle will come up as the scums.

Actually

I'm pro name claim I've decided, which is a complete flip I know.

I think we should post our names in order of the list on the OP

I will honestly be very suspicious of people I consider to be the "bad guys" in the books.
Sure, "bad guy" is a moving feast, since book 1, Jaime is painted as a bad guy, but later on he's not so bad. But anyway.

So I'm for a name claim. In the specific order. Because that way, scum have to choose, do I admit I'm Tywin Lannister? Or do I hope that "The onion knight" is not in the game and choose him. And then somebody else goes "But I'm the onion knight!" and bam! scum!

Who agrees?

Seacore, I don't follow your thought process between these two posts.

Why did you find a mass nameclaim "sneaky" in the first place? I assumed you meant because it might be rolefishing. What's changed? And you said in your first post that you thought the scum had obviously evil names like the Lannisters. Why didn't you support the idea then? It seems like you're going backwards.

We've gone over this already. Most mods either choose names that don't reveal faction or give the scum fakeclaims. I think a mass nameclaim is too easy a solution to work.