Mini 927: Alabama Correctional Facility - OVER

[farside22]

Que?

Just so I know how many times a player shoved, idk it may help it may not since I really don't get the averages and how they work maybe seeing how often a person shoves might allude to scum.

[SpyreX]

Ok, I get it now.

Note: You can disregard this if you want

------

Lets say in this setup there's only 4 players. Abe, Bob, Cal, Dan

Abe shoves (1,2,3,4)
Bob shoves (4,1,2,3)

At this point there's only two sets of shoves so we just add and divide by two for: (2.5, 1.5, 2,5, 3.5)

NOW, Cal finally comes in and votes. Abe decides to OMGUS Bob at the same time.

Abe shoves (1,4,3,2)
Bob still has shoves of (4,1,2,3)
Cal shoves (2,3,1,4)

So, Abe's new shove replaces the last and there are 3 so we divide by 3 for (2.3, 2.6, 2, 3)

Dan jumps into the fray!

Abe still shoves (1,4,3,2)
Bob still shoves (4,1,2,3)
Cal still shoves (2,3,1,4)
Dan shoves (4,2,3,1)

So, now we're at 4 (where we will sit for the rest of the game) so divisions of the new set by 4 give: (2.75, 2.5, 2.25, 2.5)

So, as it sits, Abe would get lynched.... BUT, Cal claims a N0 investigation on Bob of scum so the everyone switches accordingly:

Abe changes to (1,4,2,3)
Bob OMGUS to (3,1,4,2)
Cal changes to (2,4,1,3)
Dan changes to (3,4,2,1)

Which gives a new tally of: (2.25, 3.25, 2.25, 2.25)

So, Bob would get shoved out.

Now, informationally SpyreX watching this would definitely question why if Cal had a scum on Bob he went: Cal shoves (2,3,1,4) initially and didn't put Bob as the 4 but you get the idea.

[Cobalt]

SHUT UP DEAD MAN

[SpyreX]

YOUR NOT THE BOSS OF ME

[Cobalt]

[SpyreX]

I'm in love

[Max]

Shove:
pwnman-2
UncertainKitten-3
Minineko-4
Ellibereth-5
Jahudo-6
SpyreX-7
Max-1
farside22-8
HackerHuck-9
Super Awesome Mega Pimp!-10
Cobalt-11
Grimmy-12

Is this one right? I'm running a bit low on time so will return tomorrow to post.

[Super Awesome Mega Zord!]

That's right, we're on a deadline. That means we need to get to work right now

Where's your work? Or by work do you mean random shoving?

Not exactly. Random shoving is the process that creates work, but it's not itself work.

Also my shoves aren't literally random, they're weighted against non-shovers. Same goal though

Just to be clear, the higher the number, the closer one is to the end of the line and possible death, right?

basically.

I realized also this shoving is meant to have those that are active shoving to stay on top.
I don't know why people think random shoving is a good idea at all.

FOS: spreyx and Super Awesome Mega Pimp

for thinking it is.
All people have to do is be active to keep from going to the bottom and being lynched today.
I have about 3 people misleading the numbers of where people are on the list.

Do not go by what you think the average is people stay the line in order as is. It is not that difficult to copy the person above you and move each player down a number.

Active shoving isn't enough to avoid the lynch, or at least it isn't for me. I ran the numbers and I'm second closest to lynch. Only pwnman is closer than me right now.

Why do you think my opinion on random shoving is suspicious?

And, really, this is different than most games how?

Seriously?
Dude unless you are not reading this game it is the person with the lowest average that will be lynched today. Not the person with the most votes so if the scum team is an active bunch that has nothing to do better in their lives but to keep themselves from having their average at the bottom the likelyhood of getting scum to the buttom is going to be hard.

True. If there's scum near lynch, their buddies can shove them to a better position, so a scum lynch won't be easy today. But I think there's a bright side, the information gained from shove-switches will be a lot more useful than typical vote records. Once we get a scum, we have more than just a list of who protected scum and who didn't, we have hard numerical evidence of who was most protecting scum.

SpyreX, you fail to see the point.

First off, I'm not entirely sure that you're correct so it's not helpful to keep random shoving in case it is an overall average. Secondly, a whole bunch of useless shoving does harm the town because we don't get a good idea of who is scummy. You're arguing that random shoving doesn't put anyone in any danger. Random voting kind of works because it can start wagons. Without that kind of a mechanic, random shoving just fills the thread with noise and we're not really going anywhere with it. That's a pretty crappy way to find scum.

It definitely absolutely positively is not an overall average. DGB's second shove count proves this beyond all doubt: that count is the mean of Minineko's, Spyre's and my first shoves, and Elli's second. It doesn't take Elli's first shove into account at all. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a really bad modding decision to make it an overall average, since I could just shove you to 12 and copy and paste it ten million times and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, except shove me to 12 ten million and one times. )

I don't think the difference between random voting and random shoving is meaningful. With random voting, some people wind up close to lynch and some people don't, and someone has a reaction to that. How is random shoving different?

1. UncertainKitten 5.6
2. Minineko 6.7
3. Ellibereth 5.0
4. Jahudo 5.7
5. SpyreX 4.3
6. Max 6.4
7. farside22 6.3
8. HackerHuck 8.0
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! 7.7
10. Cobalt 7.7
11. pwnman 8.4
12. Grimmy 5.8

I have myself at 8.1 right now. I presume the discrepancy is because you have pwnman still ranking me at 2, he EBWOP'd that to a 6. But other than that I have the same figures.

Max: That's also in the wrong order. The right order is the one listed in the first post:

UncertainKitten
Minineko
Ellibereth
Jahudo
SpyreX
Max
farside22
HackerHuck
Super Awesome Mega Pimp!
Cobalt
pwnman
Grimmy

[farside22]

Currently I like SAMP's comments this post. Spreyx although I don't get the numbers seems to be ontop of things.
Max shoving at this moment saying he is busy seems suspicious on page 3 to me.

This is my current read on players at this time.

[UncertainKitten]

Changing shove order in light of new posts

UncertainKitten - 1
Minineko - 12
Ellibereth - 5
Jahudo - 3
SpyreX - 2
Max - 7
farside22 - 4
HackerHuck - 9
Super Awesome Mega Pimp! - 6
Cobalt - 11
pwnman - 8
Grimmy - 10

Not necessarily any rhyme or reason to other changes, I just wanted to promote SAMP for his post, and I don't think Ellibereth is so terrible as to be in 11th.

[farside22]

I thought the shoving was like domino's where you put yourself first and everyone just goes down the list in the number order they were in.

[Ellibereth]

I see posts fulls of numbers. Oh dear god...
Reading.

[UncertainKitten]

I thought the shoving was like domino's where you put yourself first and everyone just goes down the list in the number order they were in.

Maybe I misunderstood?

[farside22]

Wait, so we have to assign a position to every player every time? We can't just shove one person?

No. It's like a domino....

[HackerHuck]

It definitely absolutely positively is not an overall average. DGB's second shove count proves this beyond all doubt: that count is the mean of Minineko's, Spyre's and my first shoves, and Elli's second. It doesn't take Elli's first shove into account at all. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a really bad modding decision to make it an overall average, since I could just shove you to 12 and copy and paste it ten million times and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, except shove me to 12 ten million and one times. )

Umm, the way you guys are describing the shoving mechanics means that you could still do just that.

So DGB's latest line ranking (i.e. vote count) becomes the single data point. Then any shoves that follow become data points in calculating the average for the next ranking posted by DGB. All that means is if you shove 12M times after a line ranking, your data points would overwhelm all others and essentially become the new average. I know that if I'm at the bottom as we approach deadline, I'll be looking to make 12M posts with me at #1.

Or is it that each person's most recent shove is the only one that contributes to the new average?

All of your estimated rankings are nice and all, but we still haven't received any confirmation from the mod that you guys are right.


Lets try doing some scumhunting, rather than filling pages with random shoves and setup discussion.

Hey Cobalt, why did you choose to daykill (or pretend to daykill) SpyreX?

[UncertainKitten]

Hmm...ok.

DGB, can you give us an example of how shoving is supposed to work?

[HackerHuck]

Oh yeah, I'd still like to see how the spreadsheet works if you're open to publishing it. That will make it much easier for me to understand.

[UncertainKitten]

So DGB's latest line ranking (i.e. vote count) becomes the single data point. Then any shoves that follow become data points in calculating the average for the next ranking posted by DGB. All that means is if you shove 12M times after a line ranking, your data points would overwhelm all others and essentially become the new average. I know that if I'm at the bottom as we approach deadline, I'll be looking to make 12M posts with me at #1.

Except DGB said your shoves replace your previous shoves.

[pwnman]

I might be V/LA for a week

[DrippingGoofball]

Your position is the average placement from all the shoves you receive. I could show you my spreadsheet, but all it is, is your average position!

And stand up straight, maggots!

YOUR CURRENT RANKING IN LINE #3

4.3 SpyreX
5.0 Ellibereth
5.6 UncertainKitten
5.7 Jahudo
6.2 Grimmy
6.3 farside22
6.4 Max
6.7 Minineko
7.6 Super Awesome Mega Pimp!
7.8 Cobalt
8.0 HackerHuck
8.4 pwnman

[UncertainKitten]

Ok, let's try it this way

DGB, are we just shoving one person, or the whole list of players?

[HackerHuck]

Ugh, I still don't get it.

Shove:
1. UncertainKitten - 9
2. Minineko - 4
3. Ellibereth - 10
4. Jahudo - 8
5. SpyreX - 11
6. Max - 2
7. farside22 - 5
8. HackerHuck - 1
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! - 3
10. Cobalt - 12 (must have lied about his daykill)
11. pwnman - 6
12. Grimmy - 7

[SpyreX]

....

Now my numbers are off ever so slightly and I'm not sure where it happened.

[SpyreX]

AHA, my numbers aren't off. Max did it wrong again and I add it in.

What are the problems people are still having?

Further, if you still have problems, why would you reshove?

Shovin' Time
1. UncertainKitten 2
2. Minineko 8
3. Ellibereth 7
4. Jahudo 3
5. SpyreX 1
6. Max 11
7. farside22 4
8. HackerHuck 12
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! 5
10. Cobalt 9
11. pwnman 6
12. Grimmy 10

[Ellibereth]

Jah: I don't like random number generators. My second shove's 12 spot was 100% serious.

Anywayz, Hacker, how is asking Cobalt about a blatantly fake daykill scumhunting?