Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[havingfitz]

Fitz - What's your view on early bandwagons?

In RV? In this game a third vote or higher on someone would start to get my attention.

so lets make it interesting....

vote: Deer

I was (am still am) a bit suspicious of Fallen Angel for the L-2 vote on Deer...coupled with all the explaining that went with it. In fact...was catching up on the thread and getting ready to move my vote to FA when I came across the L-1 vote...for basically no reason...in your third post of the game. wow

Unvote, Vote: rzhang86

[fallen angel]

I'll explain my reasoning. Just, I can't right now.

[jbernier93]

Well, at any rate, I'm glad we've moved out of the RVS. (Is it just me, or do RVSs seem to

always

end when someone puts one too many votes on a bandwagon?)

Cause that's the whole point of the RVS?

so lets make it interesting....

vote: Deer

... Not sure if this is a newbscum or newbtown vote but it reeks of newbiness...

[water_foul]

Sorry i haven't posted much yet, I kind of had a gaming fest this weekend and my brain was too rotted to remember i had active games. Sometimes i'm only a night person. Anyway I really think rzhang86's vote reeks more of newb scum as it was post #3 and it is re-putting someone at L-1. The scummiest part of this is without any explanation I think it looks more like an attempt to hammer and he missed the unvote (although he will deny it). As for the other posts I really didn't find anything scummy but it was a great read.
The only really useful thing back there is the Metas. They CAN come in handy later but always be wary of self bios as people have been known to try to hide their scum tells in their self proclaimed metas. On that note I think my play style is very erratic although I don't have very much forum mafia experience to really say. I have played more IRC mafia (which is much more fast paced) than forum mafia and have never played it in person (although I want to). My only major flaw is that I am not very good at RQS/RVS so I usually stay pretty quiet day one and I have been known to re-read lots of back logs.
On another note: If anyone has read people's old games please tell us what you find. I have some free time tomorrow so I will be hitting the searches to find those games that people didn't list off as those tell you the most. In addition to this it is my opinion if you have ANY suspicions, whether it is based on WIFOM that no-one else understands, a hunch, or good evidence, you should share them with the crowd as it can only help the town to be suspicious of everyone. With that said only act on what you have evidence of once we get out of RVS as it can be very dangerous especially late game where one wrong lynch can mean disaster for the town.

With that essay done and in the spirit of trying to get us out of RVS I will join the wagon and

Unvote, Vote: rzhang86

half for reasons stated above and half to pressure him to explain himself (and a little because i think deer acquitted himself nicely for now).

[fallen angel]

Hmm.

Unvote Deer

. The idea behind putting Deer at (originally, before the unvote) was to catch everyone off guard. If someone jumped off the second I put deer so close to a lynch, I'd lean towards them being town. If anybody simply ignored it and pretended that there wasn't about to be a player lynched D1, I'd assume they're scum or at least not pro-town. If anyone actually quicklynched, obvscum. It didn't work for a few reasons, unfortunately, although I am pretty convinced of rzhang's scumminess. I'll do a full reread when I have time.

[havingfitz]

Anyway I really think rzhang86's vote reeks more of newb scum as it was post #3 and it is re-putting someone at L-1. The scummiest part of this is without any explanation I think it looks more like an attempt to hammer and he missed the unvote (although he will deny it).

Actually...upon further review:

• 1- I don't think Deer is at L-1 at the moment as ssss' unvote seems to have gone unnoticed...by both FA and the mod.
  2- I don't think rzhang86 re-put Deer at L-1...the highest Deer has gone is L-2, which rzhang reput him at

Also...this is only rzhang86's 2nd game on the site it would appear so he is definitely new. Though I'm not sure I am prepared to give him a complete pass for his nonchalant vote (whether he thought it was L-1 or L-2), for the moment I will...

Unvote

still somewhat suspicious newbie

rzhang86

That said...FA doesn't appear to be so new. So much rationalization before putting another vote on the Deer BW. Stating rzhang's vote was putting Deer

back

at L-1 (which it wasn't...and never was) missing the ssss unvote right above. Posting that he couldn't explain his reasons for voting Deer (even though he wasn't asked to explain them and he had time to post that he couldn't explain them???). Then ~30 minutes later...he's suddenly able to explain his reasons (= to draw out/ID scum...not to actually get rid of Deer). If your plan didn't work...why are you convinced rzhang is scum? From your plan that didn't work? And you need to re-read a game that just started?

hmmmmm....

Vote:

not so new, over rationalizing & misleading

Fallen Angel

PS...Mod...did I mention your vote count was wrong (again)?

[chauchaudotcom]

Two pages behind already. =

quot;]Any particular scumhunting techniques you use a lot?

Ask questions, look for inconsistencies.

Hmmm.

Such insight! Any thoughts on FA's 'gambit'?

If someone jumped off the second I put deer so close to a lynch, I'd lean towards them being town.

False, scum often do it to clear themselves as town. Particularly since scum don't want to be held responsible for a quicklynch that doesn't appear legitimate (since it did spawn from RVS). Especially since you stated multiple times it was a gambit.

Deer - If you feel rz's move was mostly out of newbness, why are you voting him?

The scummiest part of this is without any explanation I think it looks more like an attempt to hammer and he missed the unvote (although he will deny it).

That's some fine tuned wifoming my friend.

RZ - Who's your top suspect right now?

FA - What makes you think RZ is newb scum versus newb town?

[water_foul]

The scummiest part of this is without any explanation I think it looks more like an attempt to hammer and he missed the unvote (although he will deny it).

FA - What makes you think RZ is newb scum versus newb town?

That was me my friend and FA didn't vote for him, I did and as I said it was

half for reasons stated above and half to pressure him to explain himself

This attack on FA seems scummy as he never voted for him and others did.... Is this an attempt to direct attention away from rzhang86? Whether or not it is I still want an explanation from him and if he doesn't explain himself by the end of day 1 he will be suspect #1, especially if he explains himself shortly after D2.

[Sucrose]

Rzhang, when you voted, did you think you were putting Deer at L-1 or L-2?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Vote Count:

Deer (5): Sucrose, water_foul, smashbro_of_the_SSS, fallen angel, rzhang86
Sucrose (1): Nobody Special
Nobody Special (2): chauchaudotcom, havingfitz
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1):TeWuicah

With 11 players it takes 6 to lynch.

Deer is at L-1

This votecount is wrong, I did unvote.

so lets make it interesting....

vote: Deer

I don't like the vote, or how fallen angel responded. No vote yet, but explain yourself rz

[chauchaudotcom]

That was me my friend and FA didn't vote for him, I did and as I said it was

I don't believe I ever claimed he did. I was questioning FA's statement about hang's action being scummy versus newb given his statement: "although I am pretty convinced of rzhang's scumminess"

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't like the vote, or how fallen angel responded. No vote yet, but explain yourself rz

What do you mean you don't like how FA responded? Can you elaborate?

[fallen angel]

That was me my friend and FA didn't vote for him, I did and as I said it was

I don't believe I ever claimed he did. I was questioning FA's statement about hang's action being scummy versus newb given his statement: "although I am pretty convinced of rzhang's scumminess"

I can't picture a true town player saying "Well, I'm going to vote the one person with multiple votes on him without providing any reasoning." How could that come off as town at all?

Also, I'm a bit confused why I'm being voted or considered a suspect? There seems to be a bit of confusion as to who said what, and it would make it a great deal easier to explain myself if presented with a clear case. Kthanxbai.

[rzhang86]

LOL wow everybody just turns around and vote for me. do you think im that stupid that i hadnt already thought about whether voting Deer would be scummy or not?

yes i knew i was putting him at exactly L-1 (not L-2, and not hammer). i voted Deer for the same reason fallen angel did... i was making his "gambit" more effective, if it was gonna work at all. L-2 isnt very much pressure, L-1 is when things happen if they are going to happen. i decided to support fallen angel's gambit because the game has been dead so far and this was the most proactive step anyone has taken yet.

but now that the fallen angel has explained his own gambit, the gambit isnt very useful anymore. he shouldnt have even told anyone it was a gambit until after he found what he was looking. its ironic how much patience people have in this game when its dead (ie chatting about nothing) but have so little patience when the game gets interesting.

yes i only have 1 game on my record, but that only means i am a noob to this particular website (and we shouldnt talk about that game because i think it is still in progress). i am not so noob to just bandwagon in the most obviously suspicious way if i were actually scum.... give me some credit jeez

[rzhang86]

if you are gonna attempt a gambit, then carry it all the way through. dont half ass it by notifying people its a gambit, and especially dont explain it until after the gambit has paid off or failed.

a gambit by definition means you are taking on a risk for a period of time for a shot at a reward. the risk usually involved is appearing one way when you are actually another way (ie appearing scummy when you are actually town, or vice versa in the broadest sense). if you cant the risk then dont try the gambit.

[rzhang86]

sorry to triple post but i would like to add one more thing. can we agree ahead of time (now) that if someone is at L-1 and you have the power to hammer, you will not do so until the person has had a chance to speak all he has to say?

i would like to know whether this game will be gambit friendly or not, some of us like that style of play.

[jbernier93]

i voted Deer for the same reason fallen angel did...

vote:rzhang86

[Deer]

Hmm. Well, I'm personally okay with fallen's "gambit," but here's what I think could have happened: fallen places his vote, rzhang sees there's some sort of bandwagon happening, hops on. his vote is seen as scummy, he has to back up and pretend like he knew what fallen was doing the whole time to defend himself, which I'm pretty sure he didn't. he made that post only after fallen explained himself to the the town. Putting me at L-1 (which i think I wasn't ever at anyways, haha) for no reason doesn't really help the town. I'm not satisfied at all with his explanation of trying to help the gambit work - it just seems like retroactive justification to me. And now he's talking about whether this game will be "gambit friendly" as if he has a whole bunch of experience on the site.

I do like the fact SSSS got off the wagon, though.

chauchau, I'm pretty sure you have me confused with water_foul, by the way.

[rzhang86]

Hmm. Well, I'm personally okay with fallen's "gambit," but here's what I think could have happened: fallen places his vote, rzhang sees there's some sort of bandwagon happening, hops on. his vote is seen as scummy, he has to back up and pretend like he knew what fallen was doing the whole time to defend himself, which I'm pretty sure he didn't. he made that post only after fallen explained himself to the the town. Putting me at L-1 (which i think I wasn't ever at anyways, haha) for no reason doesn't really help the town. I'm not satisfied at all with his explanation of trying to help the gambit work - it just seems like retroactive justification to me. And now he's talking about whether this game will be "gambit friendly" as if he has a whole bunch of experience on the site.

I do like the fact SSSS got off the wagon, though.

chauchau, I'm pretty sure you have me confused with water_foul, by the way.

first of all, it is beyond me how you interpreted my post as saying that i have a "whole bunch of experience on the site" when i stated explicitly "i am a noob to this particular website"

secondly, consider that while your thinking is entirely plausible, it does not affect how equally plausible my explanation is, given that i would obviously only have explained myself "retroactively" given that it was a gambit.

think what you wish, you are entitled to that. but consider also that i have now actually got the game going (after 3 pages of boring RVS that could easily have continued several more pages), which is what i explained that i wanted to do. your votes for me are really the first non-random votes, misplaced as they are.

and also, just throwing it out there as food for thought, do i post like someone who would be so noob that i would make an L-1 vote as scum on an obviously random bandwagon thinking that it will actually get someone lynched.... i mean i would have to be really nooby or stupid, despite my posts (which i shall claim to be at least not nooby or stupid). but if that is your opinion of me then i guess its just a shame

[rzhang86]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

[fallen angel]

HoS rzhang86.

He voted to help my gambit, which he claims was half-assed and I shouldn't have told people. He wanted me to look bad by not explaining at least partially what I was doing, but wants to take credit for trying to be helpful. He acts overly defensive while saying others should be willing to take risks. He makes my scum radar go nuts. Maybe he is newb-town, but god... His defense makes very little sense to me, and he seems overly cautious. He's taking more credit then he should for actions that did basically nothing. Not willing to vote until I know how many he already has on him (given the confusion with incorrect vote counts) and I want the day to go on as long as possible, but I'm not liking him at the moment.

[jbernier93]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

[fallen angel]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

'Specially not before a claim.

[rzhang86]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

well i asked because in my last game (yeah my only other game on this site) i was voted and hammered before i could say anything. i was majority voted within a period of a few hours before i got to post a defense. so after that i wasnt sure that it was an unwritten rule here.....

[rzhang86]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

'Specially not before a claim.

not sure if you mean it is ok to hammer someone without last words after a claim?

i mean, basically, in my last game i was vanilla townie and i claimed doctor. then the real doctor counterclaimed, and then i was voted and hammered before i could respond. i dont want to discuss any details because the game is still in progress, but basically i was attempting a gambit and then was lynched before i could explain. that is why i brought it up here, and i apologize if it was unnecessary to do so.