Mini 931: Supreme Court Mafia (Game Over post 682)

[Jack]

Or we could call you "green tulip-like flower containing a globe".

btw, plenty of people play like you suggested. I do it myself sometimes. But instead of saying that they aren't going to explain their posts, they just say "gut feeling".

[Battousai]

Vote Count:

Jack -4- Bub Bidderskins, pwnman, jasonT1981, Netopalis
Yosarian2 -1- Darox
pwnman -1- Fishythefish

Not Voting:

Yosarian2, pman5595, DarkLightA, Green Crayons, Dry-fit, Jack

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

[Netopalis]

Jack: You're still ignoring us and are acting more and more scummily.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Let me put it in terms that you'll understand, Jack: Explain yourself, or you'll likely be the lynch. The town needs all information available to it, and we'll get it, whether it means hearing you out or lynching you.

[Jack]

You had me at "light scum" after the SK comment, and were voting Darox. So it seems like just refusing to answer the question has put me above Darox for you, and indeed to the point where it is worthwhile lynching me "to get information"?

[Netopalis]

No, it's your refusal to explain the FBI thing. You then moved from light scum to heavy scum.

[Jack]

Why is that? Btw, that's what I meant by "refusal to answer the question", I didn't mean your set of questions. I don't see it as suspicious.

[Netopalis]

Setup is interesting I think. The CIA agent is the serial killer obviously, but who are the mafia?

I'm sorry, where did it say that there is a serial killer?

I'm still curious where you determined the CIA agent is "obviously" the serial killer?

I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.

You only think you do. I'm (apparently) the only one who sees that you don't.

What do you think of pwman? I think his vote and followup are odd.

Honestly, these two posts are so scummy that I have trouble imagining any pro-town situation in which anything even resembling them might be used. I didn't vote for you earlier because I wanted to see whether or not you'd respond to the follow-up questions. You didn't. Now, I'm pretty much laying it in front of you: Would you rather be lynched, or would you rather answer?

[Dry-fit]

I have no idea what to think of Jack.

Also, I really don't like the way Pwnman and jason jumped on the Jack wagon. Pwnman moreso.

vote: pwnman

At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.

What makes you so sure? And if this is the case, why are you still voting for him?

[Jack]

Well, I asked you what was suspicious. You haven't really answered, just said "these two posts". I presume a gut feel as well. Could you lay out the whole theory behind it to me?

Now, I'm pretty much laying it in front of you: Would you rather be lynched, or would you rather answer?

If I said I'd rather be lynched would you think I'm mafia or town? I don't understand.

[Netopalis]

Sure. In the game of Mafia, there are at least two groups: An uninformed majority and an informed minority. The informed minority is the mafia and the uninformed majority is the town. The town wins when they gain information. The scum wins when information remains hidden. You are hiding information. Therefore, you are pushing towards the scum goal.

If you said you'd rather be lynched, then I'd push for your lynch.

[Jack]

Sure. In the game of Mafia, there are at least two groups: An uninformed majority and an informed minority. The informed minority is the mafia and the uninformed majority is the town. The town wins when they gain information. The scum wins when information remains hidden. You are hiding information. Therefore, you are pushing towards the scum goal.

What's your credit card number? I kid.

Lynching townies is a scum goal. So if you are trying for my lynch, should I say you are pushing towards a scum goal?

I think what you are saying here is too general. Town benefits from gaining information about player alignment. Not just any old information. Why am I as scum refusing to answer?

Applying these general paradigms (e.g. anti town is scummy) doesn't work well without a lot to flesh it out.

If you said you'd rather be lynched, then I'd push for your lynch.

Because you'd think I was mafia or because you are annoyed? Are you just pressuring me or do you really think I'm suspicious?

[Netopalis]

I can think of no reason for your actions to date other than an anti-town alignment, be it SK or mafia. I truly do find you suspicious, and I ask you this: If you had no intent on following up your original post about the FBI, why did you make it in the first place? Surely you must have known that we'd ask about it. At the very least, give me a reason for your withholding of information.

[Fishythefish]

Sure. In the game of Mafia, there are at least two groups: An uninformed majority and an informed minority. The informed minority is the mafia and the uninformed majority is the town. The town wins when they gain information. The scum wins when information remains hidden. You are hiding information. Therefore, you are pushing towards the scum goal.

Argh. That's horrific false logic. I'm currently hiding my role from you - which is "hiding information". I don't consider this pushing towards the scum goal. It may be that in this case, hiding information is demonstrably scummy - but this argument feels like you want to convince regardless of whether you are right.

If Jack is a SK-cop, he is an idiotic one. Similarly, if he's a SK, he's an idiotic one. More likely, he just read more into the opening flavour than anyone else. Whichever of those it is, pressing him for information that may or may not exist seems like a bad idea.

@Neto: you say you can't find a pro-town motive for Jack's actions. Can you find an antitown one?

[pwnman]

I have no idea what to think of Jack.

Also, I really don't like the way Pwnman and jason jumped on the Jack wagon. Pwnman moreso.

vote: pwnman

At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.

What makes you so sure? And if this is the case, why are you still voting for him?

Since when is 2 people voting a bandwagon? I was the second person on because Jack copied and pasted votes. Even if he hadn't done that I'd still be on now with his refusal to answer questions

[Netopalis]

Fishy: Sure, I can produce a scummy reason for Jack's actions. First, he is deliberately being confusing. Even if he is town, he would have had no other reason to bring up the matter in the first place. He is attempting to derail the game by his cryptic responses as well. Also, he is, I think, trying to benefit from early suspicion being cleared, which often means that the player will be looked at with less suspicion later in the game. If he establishes an extremely scummy style of play now, in the late game, if he plays in a more pro-town fashion, he will look much less like scum, regardless of his actual alignment. Thus, in a sense, it can be something of a protectionist move.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I have no idea what to think of Jack.

Also, I really don't like the way Pwnman and jason jumped on the Jack wagon. Pwnman moreso.

vote: pwnman

At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.

What makes you so sure? And if this is the case, why are you still voting for him?

Mainly because of viewtopic.php?t=12789&start=0 that game. I was Emile Buchard, and one player voted for me for absolutely no reason and then refused to explain his vote. When asked why he wouldn't explain his vote, he would explain that either.

Naturally, we ended up lynching him and he turned out to be bullet-proof. The ironic thing was that I was actually scum and ended up losing the game mainly because of my inactivity.

The point is that usually when somebody is so blatantly anti-town, then they're probably not scum, because scum isn't that stupid. I'm voting for Jack to try and get answers.

However, if it comes down to it I'll lynch him, mainly because I don't want it in the end-game if he goes on to ruin it regardless of whether he's scum or not. Also, if you noticed in the game above, all of the scum (including me) were on Stuart's wagon. That was because he was such an easy lynch that day. That leads me to believe that pwn and Jason are scummy. Neto had decent reasons for his vote, but the others come off as opurtunistic scum, especially pwn.

FOS: Pwn

[Jack]

Since when is 2 people voting a bandwagon? I was the second person on because Jack copied and pasted votes. Even if he hadn't done that I'd still be on now with his refusal to answer questions

1) I didn't copy and paste votes
2) I haven't refused to answer question

s

, only one question.

Vote:pwnman

Fishy: Sure,

I can produce

a scummy reason for Jack's actions. First, he is deliberately being confusing. Even if he is town, he would have had no other reason to bring up the matter in the first place. He is attempting to derail the game by his cryptic responses as well. Also, he is, I think, trying to benefit from early suspicion being cleared, which often means that the player will be looked at with less suspicion later in the game. If he establishes an extremely scummy style of play now, in the late game, if he plays in a more pro-town fashion, he will look much less like scum, regardless of his actual alignment. Thus, in a sense, it can be something of a protectionist move.

So you came up with this one just now. You're making the logic fit the conclusion, then. Let's say I started (for some reason) with the conclusion that you were scum. In that light, your starting the game with the questions would be an attempt to make yourself look pro town and to control discussion early. You didn't notice my answers were copy pasted because you were scum faking suspicion on Darox. Now you think I know something about the setup that you don't, and as scum you want to know what it is, so you threaten to lynch me unless I spill the beans.

If you are town surely you can see how far astray starting with a conclusion and then finding a scum motive for someones behavior can take you.

[Netopalis]

pro·duce (pr-ds, -dys, pr-)
v. pro·duced, pro·duc·ing, pro·duc·es
v.tr.
1. To bring forth; yield

It is the reason that I found you scummy to begin with, I'm just bringing it forward now. Respond substantively.

[jasonT1981]

You had me at "light scum" after the SK comment, and were voting Darox. So it seems like just refusing to answer the question has put me above Darox for you, and indeed to the point where it is worthwhile lynching me "to get information"?

Well, you are already saying you have information that could be vitel to the town.

I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.

And refusing to help the town with your information, you can see why the heat is on you, no? therefor if you won't give it up willingly, the lynch to get info maybe our only choice as regards to you for the best of the town,

[Jack]

pro·duce (pr-ds, -dys, pr-)
v. pro·duced, pro·duc·ing, pro·duc·es
v.tr.
1. To bring forth; yield

It is the reason that I found you scummy to begin with

, I'm just bringing it forward now. Respond substantively.

You never said anything about this, even when asked. You "couldn't imagine any protown situation" and then I was scummy because I was "hiding information and working towards a scum goal" and then you "couldn't imagine a pro town situation" again.

So, you were "hiding information" from the town when you didn't mention this, yes?

btw, why do you think the "early suspicion will be cleared"?

[Jack]

You had me at "light scum" after the SK comment, and were voting Darox. So it seems like just refusing to answer the question has put me above Darox for you, and indeed to the point where it is worthwhile lynching me "to get information"?

Well, you are already saying you have information that could be vitel to the town.

I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.

And refusing to

help the town with your information

, you can see why the heat is on you, no? therefor if you won't give it up willingly, the lynch to get info maybe our only choice as regards to you for the best of the town,

It's not helpful, and available for all to see in any case.

[Netopalis]

I didn't bother to explicitly state it because I thought it was obvious. Answer the bloody question.

[Jack]

I didn't bother to explicitly state it because I thought it was obvious. Answer the bloody question.

I want to know why you think the early suspicion on me will be cleared.

Unless you're going to do the "I asked first" thing.

[Jack]

My conversation starters are soooo much more fun then question lists.

Someone in this room is trying to kill them, but the only people in the room that are not justices are the two attorneys and the secret service agent..

Have you read this bit from the OP netopolis?