Mini 973: "Bawhston" Brawl (WHAT A WIN!)

[yabbaguy]

-There are only so many things you can fathom when you create a setup. I must thank Faraday and mykonian who helped me balance the setup that went into this game, by the way, they were a tremendous help. But man, I did not fathom Hoopla taking a PGO claim to the bank. It worked on so many levels, it made Mafia think twice before ousting her at Night (while Day was really where she wanted to die!)

- We got over 9000 views during gameplay. It took a while, but it also was a game I'm sure intrigued many and kept them coming back to the thread. I think that's pretty sweet.

-Frankly, Hoopla, I would've gone as simple as "Okay guys, I'm Vengeful, I'm a free lynch" D6. That would've resulted in fewer underage heart attacks, but also wouldn't be as effective, I reckon. PS: Hoopla confided to me she was "taking a nap" whilst her famous L-1 LyLo vote was down. Classy.

-I am utterly shocked JacobSavage got himself ousted D1. I was laughing hysterically when the randomizer gave him the role. I thought the habitual D1 lurker was going to steamroll his way to victory for a role that basically begs for someone to be apathetic. And with the one-shot bulletproof, he might have been willing to take the gamble and KO Hoopla!

-Notice the weird randomization of the list. First slot (Nikanor) got Cop, third slot (Hoopla) got Venge, then the 10th, 11th, and 12th slots (JS, Gwyn, IP) landed scum roles. What a fluke.

And then a huge one:

- A) people in the Dead Thread, I was trying to drop clues as to Hoopla's role. I think when I said post-mortem Daykill: Oso and then said, "get a clue man", I was screaming the hint at him. What's a post-mortem daykill? A vengekill!
BUT B) InflatablePie, the person who mattered. Look at his role PM again. Not anywhere did I specify anything about

active

actions being restricted. I think that should've been a tip-off that something wasn't quite right.

---

How did you enjoy the game experience? I know quite a few of you found my graphics cool (although I bet you nobody clicked on the Night placard to submit actions ).

I will give Hoopla the benefit of the doubt post-mortem that I should've foreseen she was gambitting with the fakehammer on JacobSavage and I shouldn't have torn it down straightaway. That's really the only significant error I think I made the whole time.

The new, big rule I put in was the prod timers and deadlines contracting on D3+. What do you make of that rule?

Otherwise, thanks everyone for a great game. I was upset when I learned I couldn't do a corporate espionage

theme

in a

Normal

(really?!), but relocating to the capital city of my home state wasn't so bad either.

[Oso]

Add on: I think you did exceptionally well IP. The only thing I think you did wrong was that post in twilight after my lynch. Other than that you did very well I think. I mostly had you on my scum list because of a process of elimination. Not because you had done anything outright scummy in my eyes.

[Hoopla]

How did you enjoy the game experience? I know quite a few of you found my graphics cool (although I bet you nobody clicked on the Night placard to submit actions ).

Your lynch scenes are graphics were brilliant yabba, definitely run with that gimmick in the future. I automatically love mods who post frequent vote-counts, are active with prods and replacements, and especially a Green Room for dead players. It was very professionally run, and I think overall the set-up was fine. I know I boxed myself and others into a 3-scum mentality, making balance predictions from that, and even if I exaggerated the chance of a 3-mafia game, it never is a costly mistake because being wrong and mislynching is still the same net result of being right and lynching scum. Both ways finish chasing one less scum.

[Oso]

You did very well I think yabba. I thoroughly enjoyed the game. It broadened my experience as well. Until this this game I hadn't really thought about the ramifications of an unmodified PGO (even though there wasn't actually one present) and having never played a vengeful townie (or my dead lounge guess, a bomb) I am now open to how both those roles can be used quite effectively in a game.

All in all, one of the better games odf mafia I have ever played. Definitely in the top 5 on a sheer enjoyment scale.

[Hoopla]

This should be a lesson to towns about how dangerous it is believing a PGO claim. I could have just as easily fakeclaimed that role as scum, and none of you were going to do anything about it. PGO's are a fine and usable role for mods, but the set-up they exist in needs to be thoroughly reviewed because they can be swingy. For towns of the future: expect an influx on scum PGO fake-claims as the role becomes more common.

The same thing happened with the miller role, too. Initially it was used as a balancing agent to water down cops result, and claiming it Day 1 slowly became standard procedure (for a while). Soon, scum started taking advantage this meta by fake-claiming it, and towns often have competing theories on how to deal with one. The same dilemma exists for the PGO too, it is just an exaggerated scenario, as it (possibly) can't be safely targetted at night. After a couple of towns get stung by fake PGO claims, the role will slowly optimise and be dealed with more suspicion or even policy. As it stands now, town (and scum) don't pressure claimed PGO's enough, which makes it a major advantage for town if it's true, or a major disadvantage if it's false.

[yabbaguy]

PGO pinball example- MN887 by canadianbovine. mykonian killed the Doctor, a Mafioso, and the Serial Killer with just that role. He inhibited the claim.

One more thing: I had to literally prod the dead people to get the Dead Lounge going at one point. Once it started up, it hardly stopped, but something in me thinks it's not terribly used D1 and D2. My thought: open it D3 when action is really starting to unfold and it becomes an interesting game as an observer.

[TheButtonmen]

@Nik:

Why the hammer on me before I claimed?

[Oso]

One more thing: I had to literally prod the dead people to get the Dead Lounge going at one point. Once it started up, it hardly stopped, but something in me thinks it's not terribly used D1 and D2. My thought: open it D3 when action is really starting to unfold and it becomes an interesting game as an observer.

Plus it's fun. Then you get watch to watch along and spout of all those gambits, swashbuckling, seat of the pants theories and things you'd never be able to use to use in a game. Or even mention w/o fear of being (rightly) lynched if anyone thought you were serious.

Plus it still sharpens your game. Even though you can be as off the wall as you want, it still helps improve your game even though you are not directly particpating

[InflatablePie]

Note to self: kill all PGOs D:

Setup was fun, graphics were cool (I clicked on one or two of the night ones btw), flavor was good, votals/prods were frequent. I'd totally sign up for another one of your games; you can put me on your "possible replacements" list for future games if you want.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

you can put me on your "possible replacements" list for future games if you want.

Ditto~

[Gwynplaine]

That was my first loss as scum. Brilliant game. Just a couple of quick thoughts. I might have more later.

First of all, well-played to the town, and especially to Hoopla. That said, Hoopla got really lucky with the setup and especially with the way the scum role PMs were written. We had to specify which player made the kill even though as it turns out that didn't affect the game play at all, since there were no watchers, trackers, town roleblockers or ... you know. If there hadn't been that stipulation, we would have disbelieved the PGO claim and killed her N1. If there really had been three mafia, I'd have strongly suggested killing her on night one whether we believed the claim or not.

Reckoner, we killed you pretty much at random. You seemed like a "middle of the pack" player, unlikely to be doc-protected but not really much of a lynch candidate. After nobody tried to analyze the night kill, we just started killing the players who seemed most pro-town. I was really surprised when y'all lynched Oso, who was on our shortlist of towniest players on Nights 1 and 2. Just goes to show how different things look when you know the right answers.

Yabbaguy", very well done on the modding. Hilarious death scenes and I like the buttons. I think I *did* click on the button to send in actions on Night 2.

*Yeah, I know, but it's the beginning of a sentence. Deal with it.

[Nikanor]

TBM: You waited to claim. I see that as a scum-tell, but I should probably change that to a scum/vanilla-tell.

In my forty or so games, this is the first time I've been an investigative role. I think I did not bad.
Hoopla: You were mostly confirmed town for being the only other power role when a roleblocker was known to exist.
Pieguy: I think that you should have left me alive and killed MS on the night you killed me.
yabba: Thank you for another excellently modded game.

[InflatablePie]

Sorry bout the loss, Gwyn.

[Hoopla]

First of all, well-played to the town, and especially to Hoopla. That said, Hoopla got really lucky with the setup and especially with the way the scum role PMs were written. We had to specify which player made the kill even though as it turns out that didn't affect the game play at all, since there were no watchers, trackers, town roleblockers or ... you know. If there hadn't been that stipulation, we would have disbelieved the PGO claim and killed her N1. If there really had been three mafia, I'd have strongly suggested killing her on night one whether we believed the claim or not.

Almost every game run in the last year or two and every game I've played as scum, a specific team member has to send in the kill. This is largely due to the increase of town roles that interact with individual player actions, and even in games (like this), you still need that rule to prevent scum knowing what roles won't exist in the set-up. I'm pretty sure it's a standard procedure across the board though, or if it isn't yet, it soon will be because newer mods will copy what they have seen in the games they play.

In an unrelated point, I think your wagon, especially because it grew so quickly, put InflatablePie in a very difficult spot to bus you or try and save you. You must have been pretty shocked coming online after being on zero votes to be all of a sudden at L-1.

[q21]

First game back after a year is a victory! Whoo!

Appologies to the townies watching on, thinking I had gone mental and thrown the game away with a self-vote in lylo. I wish I could have seen your faces.

I was just about ready to reach through the internet and throttle you for a minute... then I saw the Spongebob pic and just laughed for a long time. Very well played Hoopla, very well played indeed.

Yabba, your setup and modding were excellent. I thoroughly enjoyed myself here. Thanks!

[Faraday]

Lol. I was reading along here. Knowing there was no PGO in the game I thought Hoopla was scum. I completely forgot she could have been Vengeful

[TheButtonmen]

TBM: You waited to claim. I see that as a scum-tell, but I should probably change that to a scum/vanilla-tell.

I waited because by doing it the way I did I could extract more information from my lynch.

What made you think I was scum?

[CSL]

I was watching this when it all started. It was quite a watch.

yabbaguy, you certainly have a knack for flavor.

Hoopla, nice shooting.

[havingfitz]

Whew....only had time to do a quick read this morning before work and what a surprise that was.

As hard as I tried to get Hoopla lynched D1 I'm obviously glad it worked out in the end. Luckily no one else really supported her lynch.

@Hoopla...why didn't you just vote IP after I no voted you at L-1? Were you still unsure or did you just want to make a grand exit? What if IP had hammered while you were offline/sleeping and yabba ended twilight before you had a chance to vengekill? BTW...a bomb/vengeful townie is not a role I have ever played with so that never entered my mind. Waiting ~8 hours for Hoopla to unvote last night was definitely interesting.

@Oso...how was IPs comment the day you died so telling?

One of the most interesting games I've been in. Good job Hoopla...many thanks to yabba for taking the time to mod and create flavah...and I told you...IP is SCUM!

[Oso]

It showed he had knowledge of the setup before my role reveal.

Paraphrased. "I think is Fitz is scum no matter what Oso flips."

Taking his posts into complete isolation, I would say fitz is scum regardless of Oso's alignment

simply due to the sheer buddying to Oso that's going on there. In the context of this game, however, it IS pretty obvious they're buddies.

That jumped out at me the moment I read it and even before yabba came in and acknowledged the lynch, I knew the game wasn't over.

[Oso]

[Add on]
And that was just about all I had right about the end game though. Just before my lynch, I had taken Hoopla out of the confirmed town category. I was entirely ready to think that the scum team was IP/Hoopla mainly based on on the 3 scum setup we all were operating under. Under that erroneous setup assumption, I knew you couldn't be scum because I wasn't. The same logic I used to try and clear myself also cleared MS. Even though there was no PGO, one person missing the inherent PGO end game trap for scum would be understandable. But three people missing it was a bit of stretch.

Nik was cleared as the cop. I was cleared because I knew my alignment, you were cleared because you didn't vote me. That left MS/IP/Hoopla. Every thing I had, even if most of it was a process of elimination after taking out probable townies included IP as as member of the team, so that cleared MS, if only weakly because MS voted IP. That left IP and Hoopla.

I was completely wrong clearing both you and MS as it turns out because all my pre-lynch reasoning that day was based on 2 scum still left and that the team as a whole hadn't missed the inherent trap of a 1-scum/1-PGO endgame.

[q21]

I probably should have worked out the Vengekill possibility the moment I saw that people were still allowed to post game content after they'd been hammered.

[yabbaguy]

Null. That's a rule that I even had a back-and-forth with Nikanor on at one point, but having post-mortem lynch discussion is something I favor in any event.

I forget what I actually cited, but it's just too heavily scum-favored to not let the Town player scream things out as they're headed for the noose, in my opinion.

[q21]

It may be something you favour, but its not something I've seem many mods use before.

[yabbaguy]

The default is certainly not that anymore if it ever waas. There's the rule of "once you're dead, stop talking", but technically dead to most people is when the mod says so, not when the last vote says so.

I actually very seldom see what you're describing. Usually the lynchee gets to scream out stuff before he dies.