NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[UltimaAvalon]

Or, you could just take 2 Alieve to stop pain all day

[xRECKONERx]

Okay, I just realized this game had started. Damn it.
Is most of it "LOL RVS" bullshit or is there absolutely mandatory content on the past 6 pages?

[UltimaAvalon]

You could try to actually do your job as a Mafia player and READ DAMMIT

[xRECKONERx]

*sigh*
Fine.

Oh and what the fuck. Benmage is in this game?
hahahahaha

Vote: Benmage

[Furcolow]

@ Furcolow
You specifically said you would CHANGE YOUR VOTE to UA, not that you would wait until he could get lynched by you doing it. Guess how wagons get started? By a vote that DOESN'T follow the crowd. If you would rather lynch UA, why don't you try it, we've got plenty of time. However, I find your last statement very interesting. Why? Because you just spent your entire post saying you can't lynch who is obvscum because they don't have enough votes on them. And yet you say that the fact that there are many votes on me proves that I'm obvscum. So. Is a large bandwagon indicative exclusively of obvscum, or not?

First off: I didn't say the fact that there are many votes on you meant you were scum, I said that there are votes on you which indicates people find you to be scum. If it came out any other way THIS is how I meant it to be said. I also responded that either of your wagons would be a good lynch as town. How was that not addressing this? Quit trying to put words in my mouth. Also, I didn't state that a large wagon means you are scum. I am saying you have a large wagon on you because you are acting hyper-aware of the fact that you ARE scum, and have made many slipups including OMGUS/AtE/strawman.

[Shanba]

Oh man. The egos are out in force already, I see.

UA: do you think dana's actions were at all scummy? Who do you think looks scummiest right now?

Frank: Are you more certain of the case against dana or the case against UA (bearing in mind your case against UA is based on him protecting dana)?

Jdodge: Have you ever considered hiding your dislike of people? It might help you build the support you need to push through lynches.

[/theory sidetrack] Meta is not a stupid concept. It's perfectly reasonable. Mafia is a game about a group of people trying to achieve mutually contradictory goals. Knowing something about the character and habits of a person is therefore inevitably useful in determining their motivations: if you're asking yourself the question "why are they voting so and so" or "why are they reacting in such a way" (in other words, the sorts of questions you need to ask yourself if you're going to scumhunt) you need some insight into their character to get an accurate answer.

Or to put it another way, if you've lived with someone for twenty years, you can tell when they're lying. When you've played thousands of hands of poker with someone, you get a feel for when they're bluffing. When you've played a substantial number of mafia games with someone, you can read them better. That's meta, in a basic but powerful form.

In the specific instance in question, it's simply bizarre to suggest that I was colluding with UA when a dozen simpler and more plausible explanations exist, most notably that I know a small part of UA's meta. (Note: I know she backed down from this position, I'm just illustrating my theory sidetrack.)
[/end theory sidetrack]

I don't give two hoots about dana's claim to be experienced. That's not the key part of that post, it's a side-issue at best, somewhat scummy but hardly earth shattering. What's scummy is the fact that she essentially claimed to have lied to us for no reason at all (that's what the "it was my plan all along!" meme post was fundamentally about, dana, not about you having some master plan to get us scumslip.) We're left with two options, either she's telling the truth about lying, which makes no sense because there was nothing she could possibly be gaining from such a lie or she was lying about that and in that case it looks like a terrible cover up.

That's a feeling that's reinforced by some of the further dramatic responses dana gave ("Whatever. Wagon me. Don't care. You'll probably realize it's pointless eventually, because I know the people here in general are smart enough to see through your lies.") ((Lies? What? Who are you even trying to accuse of lying about anything?)

dana: in your defences there's at least one cheap shot at porochaz, one at jd, a vote for me and a vote for frank. Do you think all of these people are to a greater or lesser degree, scummy, or was that all just rhetoric?

+1 porochaz' calling out of wraith and +1 whoever called out benmage.

[Shanba]

The more the initial emotional reaction to dana's post is passing, the more I think he might have been trying to piss about in the first post he made. The second and subsequent posts are still scummy (there's a desperation to avoid attention at a pre-emptive level and his reaction to those voting him makes it looks like his first priority is not to find sucm but to avoid being lynched).

[Wraith]

@dana: I voted for you because:

1. You voted UA because "something's not right with his self-vote" then suddenly backtrack when called out on it by saying "I was reaction fishing." BS excuse.
2. Xite made an excellent WoT pointing out all your AtE. You are flailing and despite believing your death is inevitable are making no attempt to help the town to your dying breath.
3. The OMGUS

[danakillsu]

@ Shanba
What did I supposedly lie about? Poro's lie is that everything I said was BS. Please explain your first sentence in post 156, I don't understand it.
@ Furcolow
I thought you weren't replying to me anymore, but anyway...I didn't put words in your mouth, simply interpreted them in a logical way which apparently was not correct or was correct and you are lying about your intent. I find it hard to believe that you really meant something other than what your words say. You said I was obvscum because of the votes on me. If that's true, you are saying a large bandwagon on me makes me scum. OMGUS/AtE/strawman...none of these are slipups, they are not scumtells, they are just not great logic/great play, and two of these are matters of opinion. And "either wagon would be good for town" didn't address the issue, because the issue was where your vote was.

[Wraith]

Reading further beyond that, I am even more confident in my vote. Dana is flailing, and is lashing out only at his primary accuser, and nitpicking at that. If you're town, prove it by making a meaningful contribution.

[danakillsu]

@ Wraith
1. I NEVER SAID I WAS REACTION FISHING. I just said the reactions were interesting. By that I meant that they were overreactions.
2. I am helping the town by finding that Furcolow is scum.
3. Not a scumtell. I have shown that my vote is not just OMGUS, it is backed up by a lot.

[danakillsu]

@ all
I am male. Just thought I'd clear that up for some of you.

[Shanba]

vote: UA

Something's really not right there. Either he and Shanba communicated outside this thread or UA is just doing what Shanba wants him to. Either way, it deserves explanation.

Well it's funny to see the reactions I got from pretending I knew UA was scum. I have played with him before, I believe. At any rate, no one as experienced as me would really pretend that they knew someone was scum in the RVS. And the fact that it's tradition to start with a bandwagon on UA should make my actions even less remarkable. Anyway, I'm glad I make it worth it to you, UA.

unvote

Good to see some discussion starting.

What you say in the second post implies that you're lying in the first (it's not a complicated train of logic; you say one thing then later say that the first thing you said was just you pretending). What I am saying in my first sentence in 156 is that I believe you were actually joking around in the first post I've quoted here.

[danakillsu]

Of course I was (at least kind of) joking. I had no real reason to say what I said seriously. That's why I turned to my experience. After 10 games completed, I definitely know the basics of scumtells. And self-voting is not one of them. And yeah, I was pretty much lying in the first post (joking is more accurate). But calling everything in the second post BS is what Poro did, and what I thought you were doing.

[danakillsu]

Seeing what other people have done in other games on this site in the RVS, I thought I Could Of Played around a little bit before the game got serious, and thought it surprising and somewhat funny what actually happened.

[Mysterio]

@dana, what specifically has Frank done to make you think he is scum? So far, I've only gathered an OMGUS vote and you complaining that he might be making a weak case against you (hint: it's not weak). These are not scum tells, that is simply you pissed off at the notion that someone wants you lynched.

Also, I still don't understand how anyone can be so sure of a read this early in the game. It could very well be possible that dana is just playing terribly, you can't know for sure. To act as if it's an open and shut case and we should lynch a few pages after the game started is ridiculous. Both JDodge and now Frank are guilty of this.

[nhammen]

HOLY THREAD EXPLOSION! Catching up after missing 1 day? Grrr...

[Bunnylover]

Too many people all attacking each other for some reason that probably shouldn't be attacking :<.
You all gave me a headache reading these pages <_<.
I haven't gotten any reads on who could be positive scummy, so my vote can wait.

[xRECKONERx]

Shanba: who's scum?

[danakillsu]

@ Mysterio
I could understand if you didn't read the thread, but if you did...what? How can you not know what Furc has done? The very first post I made in our argument lays it out clearly. His posts have been full of self-contradictions, confusing/invalid logic, and assumptions used as proof. He wants UA lynched more but is voting for me, for instance. And he wants the day to end ASAP judging by the nature of his posts.
I can only sort of understand what everyone's trouble is reading these pages, though. It's better to read 7 pages of heated discussion than 7 pages of randomness when trying to figure out who to vote for.

[Shanba]

Shanba: who's scum?

scummiest player thus far is dana.

[xRECKONERx]

Have you ever played with dana before? Because I tend to wind up thinking he's scum in every damn game I play with him.

[Shanba]

Have you ever played with dana before? Because I tend to wind up thinking he's scum in every damn game I play with him.

When you end up thinking he's scum, what's generally the logic behind it?

[danakillsu]

Yep. xRECK and I have quite a history together. Including Crimson King. If you don't mind, xReck, did you really think I was scum, or were you just pretending so you could carry out your wincon? (In Crimson King, that is)

[xRECKONERx]

No, I legitimately thought you were scum.

Shanba, I don't know how else to explain it...maybe it's just bias, but every single post he makes I wind up thinking to myself "Hey, I could see this coming from a scum perspective".