Newbie 1015 -- (Game Over!|Town Win)

[Subterfuge]

@Subterfuge - were you aware that he already had three people voting for him at that point in time, and that your vote put him at L-1? (for newbies, L=lynch and the number equals how many votes left till lynch. So L-2 is two votes till lynch, ect. ect. Very common term at mafiascum.)

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this looks like you don't think that tvellalot is scum and you also missed the three other votes on him. I find this implausible. Can you defend your actions? I'd also like to hear why you don't think Finner is scum.

Originally, yes. But then all of the talk about Finner did something or other that made me think that he had the votes, not Mr name-that-doesn't-really-make-sense. Completely lost track of my thoughts when I put him at L-1. The issue wasn't that I didn't notice the other 3 votes, but I dissociated them. I didn't even realize my mistake until I started getting hounded for what I thought at the time was an innocent random vote. That's really it, and it's actually kind of amusing how much controversy it sparked.

But if its that much of an issue for everyone

Unvote

Sheesh.

I'd also like to hear why you don't think Finner is scum.

Personal experience after that "trap" line. It's... a thing.

I'll wait till my next post to start going at other people.

[Thor665]

@zipperlesh
1. You've missed the point.
2. You've missed the point.
3. Fine. I've already said I'd do this.

@Subterfuge - you appear to be both saying that you didn't do anything wrong, while also doing whatever you can to distance from the actions that other people perceive as being wrong. I consider it an attempt at appeasement while also avoiding any scum energy. Thoughts?

I also look forward to your next post.

EI can be town today, good catch on zipper's FOS - that is weird, and he should address it. I might need to shift my vote, but Subterfuge is working hard to keep himself exciting.

[Subterfuge]

you appear to be both saying that you didn't do anything wrong, while also doing whatever you can to distance from the actions that other people perceive as being wrong. I consider it an attempt at appeasement while also avoiding any scum energy. Thoughts?

I also look forward to your next post.

The point of my last post was merely to state my human error and make some sort of attempt to restore status quo and salvage this disaster, since the whole thing was one big error and was wasting a lot of post space. Speaking of which, I'm pretty much going to just drop this issue after this post. If you want to continue your suspicions of me from this, go ahead.

Ok, back to scumhunting: And... I'm not good at coming up with accusation posts yet. I've always been more of a Phoenix Wright than a Miles Edgeworth.

[Thor665]

Accusation posts don't need to be anything too amazing. Just point at stuff you think is scummy and say so - it's even better if you can say why you think they're scummy.
If you have a problem with that maybe try to work from the other end of the spectrum, see if anyone is doing a lot of things that you think are townish - then rule them out and re-look at the suspects.

You mention 'restoring the status quo'...do you think we have one of these in this game, and how would you describe it?

[zipperflesh]

I completely missed EI's post. Responding now.

Well, yeah, that's my point, too. Anyone's second choice isn't going to be a very good one right now. But I guess going back and forth saying it's too early to tell much isn't really going to help us.

True dat.

True, but I have to agree with Thor that you've been putting words in his mouth a bit. Just struck me as weird is all.

Perhaps I'm reading into his words a bit too much, chasing ghosts if you will. Thor doesn't strike me as scummy at the moment, but I eagerly await his reasoning for being suspicious of Finner.

Zipper, why just a FoS? Do you think tvellalot is more suspicious than Subterfuge?

At the moment, I'm not sure Subterfuge is scum, despite his screen name. I'm going to leave my vote on tvellalot for the time being, at least until I see something truly worthy of a vote.

Originally, yes. But then all of the talk about Finner did something or other that made me think that he had the votes, not Mr name-that-doesn't-really-make-sense. Completely lost track of my thoughts when I put him at L-1. The issue wasn't that I didn't notice the other 3 votes, but I dissociated them. I didn't even realize my mistake until I started getting hounded for what I thought at the time was an innocent random vote. That's really it, and it's actually kind of amusing how much controversy it sparked.

But if its that much of an issue for everyone

Unvote

Sheesh.

If it was an honest mistake, it was an honest mistake. If it wasn't an honest mistake, then we have a problem.

Working from the POV of you thinking tvellalot wasn't at L-2, then your vote on him was probably a harmless random vote. What I don't get is why you are now unvoting, and I have to agree with Thor. It looks like your trying to make an appeasement, which isn't really necessary since Thor had unvoted tvellalot putting him back at L-2. You could have left you vote on him.

IMO, quick unvotes like this are huge scum tells. You (as scum) try to follow the wagon in order to get a townie lynched, but once you notice that lynch is going south you rather quickly hop off the wagon. I'm going to count this as a major mark against you, and its definitely worth a vote.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Subterfuge

@EI: I responded to your post before reading this one. This is the kind of thing I was looking for, a definitive scummy action.

Personal experience after that "trap" line. It's... a thing.

I'll wait till my next post to start going at other people.

You're basing the weight of this experience after playing one IRC game?

The point of my last post was merely to state my human error and make some sort of attempt to restore status quo and salvage this disaster, since the whole thing was one big error and was wasting a lot of post space. Speaking of which, I'm pretty much going to just drop this issue after this post. If you want to continue your suspicions of me from this, go ahead.

Ok, back to scumhunting: And... I'm not good at coming up with accusation posts yet. I've always been more of a Phoenix Wright than a Miles Edgeworth.

Innocence always makes me doubt my gut. :/

However, this seems a little fake to me. Almost like your trying to use the "Newb Card" to get out of suspicion. Right now I'm feeling 60/40 on you. Good enough to keep my vote, and you're definitely #1 on my scum list (I have no #2, although Thor is probably a vague #3 ), but if something better presents itself I could consider changing my vote.

[laonious]

Wow, one afternoon and I already have 2 pages to catch up on. It's late now and I'm sick and sleepy, but tomorrow is my day off, so you can expect a more thoughtful post then. Just wanted to check in

[Ibarra]

Finner is now a vague second on my lynch preference list.

To this statement zipper asked who your #1 lynch was.

Subterfuge then, voted.

@Subterfuge - Why did you "randomly" vote the guy who already had three people voting him?

Feeling Subterfuge first and Finner second.

So was Subterfuge your first choice from the start or only after he voted?


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At the moment, I'm not sure Subterfuge is scum, despite his screen name. I'm going to leave my vote on tvellalot for the time being, at least until I see something truly worthy of a vote.

This statement bothers me.
I'm sure that at this point RVS was finished, yet you kept your vote on your RVS choice. Isn't the best thing to do at that point is to unvote?

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Originally, yes. But then all of the talk about Finner did something or other that made me think that he had the votes, not Mr name-that-doesn't-really-make-sense. Completely lost track of my thoughts when I put him at L-1. The issue wasn't that I didn't notice the other 3 votes, but I dissociated them. I didn't even realize my mistake until I started getting hounded for what I thought at the time was an innocent random vote. That's really it, and it's actually kind of amusing how much controversy it sparked.

But if its that much of an issue for everyone

Unvote

Sheesh.

I don't like how you combined your "honest mistake" defense with a subtle AtE.

[Ibarra]

Right now I feel that Subterfuge could be scum trying to get a quick lynch.
(Getting someone to L-1 before a lot of people have posted)

I want to hear the opinions of others though before I place my vote.
So as of now,

FoS: Subterfuge

[zipperflesh]

At the moment, I'm not sure Subterfuge is scum, despite his screen name. I'm going to leave my vote on tvellalot for the time being, at least until I see something truly worthy of a vote.

This statement bothers me.
I'm sure that at this point RVS was finished, yet you kept your vote on your RVS choice. Isn't the best thing to do at that point is to unvote?

No.

Dropping of a RVS-wagon just because it seems the RVS is over isn't the best thing to do. There is no harm in keeping a little pressure on tvellalot until I find more worthy target. Personally, I'm not fond of straight up unvoting. I'll do it, like if someone is at L-1 or suddenly becomes confirmed or something, but just unvoting for the sake of it.... probably not going to do it. Instead, I prefer to keep my vote where it is until such a time as I find a better lynch option. This also helps during later stages of the game, since by voting I make my opinions known.

[tvellalott]

Oh HAI!
My name is Tom, no LOL, I'm not swedish.

1. What is yor experience in mafia?
Getting to be pretty extensive. This is my third (finished one, one ongoing) game on this site. I've played a crap load of EM and about 10 games of mafia on another forum.

2. How often can you post?
Well, I work with computer most days, so sometimes I'll be hella active. Then, I might have a few days out on site being a legendary problem solver in Telecommuncations, so I might not be so active. I'll try and post at least once a day.

3. What do you prefer: a honest townie or a sneaky scum?
Sneaky scum involves lying. Lies can be caught out. If I were scum, I've try to be clever rather than sneaky (r dey same?)
Honest townies tend to get butthurt when no one listens to them, which can then come off as scummy. I've won games as scum because of butthurt townies.

[tvellalott]

Ok, I just caught up.
We seem to have the usual day one, early page capers.
I don't like that I got to L-1 when I'd only posted 'Confirm'. I got a little bit of vomit in my mouth.
Do I get some gold coated chocolate truffles too if it's my wagon?
Anyway, at this point I don't suspect anyone, even Subterfuge (despite his nasty bastardage).

Carry on.

[roundabout]

Thor665

, why didn't you vote in the post where you explained your role? I don't find this particularly suspicious (especially since it's a copy/paste of a similar post from your first (and if your wiki page is up to date, so far only) IC game, where you were town), but it does seem like an odd choice to discuss how important the strategy of the opening is and not take part in that.

I don't really like

Subterfuge

's initial vote much (okay, I don't like it at all...) but if his experience info is to be believed it's perfectly reasonable to believe that he'd make an obvious mistake at some point. On the other hand, once he was confronted, immediately removing a vote that no longer came with any danger is rather suspicious. Again, maybe it's just the new thing, but the unvote feels a lot more important.

Ibarra

, you say you'd rather wait a bit before placing a vote to listen to what others have to say --- that feels really wishy-washy and non-committal, almost as if it's to avoid suspicion by staying out of the spotlight. Also, it provides you a nice excuse to bandwagon later on, since you promised us already that once other people weighed in (i.e., voted) that you'd follow up with something of your own.

zipperfish

comes off as sounding very genuine. I suspect good things of him. "Perhaps I'm reading into his words a bit too much, chasing ghosts if you will," comes really close to sounding suspicious, and if it weren't true I doubt he'd be willing to risk the negative response admitting that his actions could be a shot in the dark might bring.

I'm fairly certain

Finner

is talking out of his ass with this trap business. I don't think that's a bad thing, though. He just comes off as cocky.

EarthIntruder

, why tell us you approve of a wagon without providing further insight into why? Was the wagon beneficial merely by existing? I'd say it certainly is now since we've got Subterfuge in an interesting situation, but you posted before his vote, so why not cast one of your own or tell us why you approve?

tvellalott

, wouldn't it be helpful to post some sort of analysis (no matter how riddled with stupid it might be) rather than to just say you don't suspect anyone?

For the record, if Subterfuge had one fewer vote on him I'd be voting for him, but obviously we've already seen that that's not very smart, so I'll go with this:

VOTE: Ibarra

Also we'll see if bolding the main subject of my posts continues as a trend or not; I imagine it's a lot easier to cull details from my posts this way, but it might get obnoxious later on if I get long-winded

[Thor665]

Ok, I just caught up.
We seem to have the usual day one, early page capers.
I don't like that I got to L-1 when I'd only posted 'Confirm'. I got a little bit of vomit in my mouth.
Do I get some gold coated chocolate truffles too if it's my wagon?
Anyway, at this point I don't suspect anyone, even Subterfuge (despite his nasty bastardage).

Carry on.

I examined this post, twice (the second time I put on glasses, which makes me look smarter) ther is actually *no* scumhunting in this post at all.

Please try again.

Thor665

, why didn't you vote in the post where you explained your role? I don't find this particularly suspicious (especially since it's a copy/paste of a similar post from your first (and if your wiki page is up to date, so far only) IC game, where you were town), but it does seem like an odd choice to discuss how important the strategy of the opening is and not take part in that.

Tell you what, explain to me how this will provide you any information on me being more likely town or more likely scum and I'll deign to answer it. Until then my answer is; timestamps - use them.

Why'd you think it was important to check my wiki and prior games?

[Finner]

@EI

That's a good question. I thought like that I had to justice my questions by telling it early. Anyways, I'll tell it now:

My idea was to catch someone saying something they won't do. Example:

Player A answers to question 3 like this:

"Honest townie. I like to share my reads with others and write long, well-thought analyzes (this word might be wrongly written, but I hope you get it)."

Players A, however, hasn't written any analyzes at all, even tough he chats with others a lot. There rises a question: why so?

That was my idea. I told it already becouse nobody told things like my example.

Oh, by the way, if you see any mistakes in my English,
please, tell me! I am not very good in it and I want to improve.

[zipperflesh]

@Finner: That's pretty much the general point in starting a game with random questions. The reason you didn't get the answers you wanted to see, was because your questions were too narrow in scope. I suggest thinking of better questions the next time you try this trick; it might bear some fruit that way.

FoS: tvellalot

Thor is right. Try harder.

[Finner]

@Zipper

Alright, I'll.

I will have a reread and ISO everyone, and hopefully post my analysis today (maybe tomorrow).

[Maemuki]

Vote Count:

tvellalot >[1]< ~

zipperflesh

, Finner,

Thor665

,

Subterfuge

Subterfuge >[

3

]< ~ Thor665, EarthIntruder, zipperflesh
Ibarra >[1]< ~ roundabout

Not Voting:

tvellalott, Ibarra,

Finner

, laonious,

Subterfuge

,

roundabout

,

zipperflesh

,

EarthIntruder

,

Thor665

, Subterfuge

~Wow. You guys are fast! :D

~~With 9 alive, 5 to lynch.
~~Deadline is Wednesday, 6th of October 2010, 8 pm GMT.

[Finner]

Here are my thoughts so far:

EarthIntruder

For me, he looks like a scumhunting townie. His posts have felt genuine to me, and his voting seems to be okay.

Ibarra

He hasn't posted much and seems to be leaning to the same way with the crowd. I don't really have a good read on him.

Iaonious

Only two posts with a promise to post more tomorrow. I don't have a read on him.

roundabout

Three posts with a analysis. He looks genuine for me, and I
have a town read on him, this far.

Subterfuge

His vote on Tvellalott is scummy. I don't really think that it was a human error, tough it might be. But the scummiest thing in his posts for me is the quick unvote. After Thor's unvote, Tvella was only at L-2. There wasn't really a reason
to unvote, and I would call that wishy washy voting. That
might have been a newbie townmove, tough: I got a scummy
read on him this far.

Thor665

His posts look townish and genuine for me. I don't think he's scum.

Tvellalott

I agree with roundabout: he should post somekind of analysis. His posts this far haven't really told anything.

zipperflesh

His posts seem genuine to me. There is only one weird thing: he says that when he's scum people get town reads on him. I have a town read on him: is he scum then?

Currently, Subterfuge is my top suspect. I'll have my eye on
everyone, tough.

[Robocopter87]

Seems to be a trend to be all grateful that Robo backup mods for you then forget you have to send him your role list rofl

Hey Maemuki, I think you forget to send me roles. I'm kinda useless to you all otherwise.

In my defense ... I have nothing. Oh well! TO PMLAND! ~ Maemuki

It's alright, send them to me when you got the chance.

Hello to all! I am Robocopter87, the Backup Mod for this game, if maemuki ever randomly disappears tell me and I'll handle this game till maemuki comes back/game ends

Thanks and now get back to scumming!

[Subterfuge]

What I don't get is why you are now unvoting

Because you guys were trying to eat me alive based on a random vote. For me, it helped to get rid of the vote.

You're basing the weight of this experience after playing one IRC game?

No, personally experience from my life.

Innocence always makes me doubt my gut. :/

However, this seems a little fake to me. Almost like your trying to use the "Newb Card" to get out of suspicion. Right now I'm feeling 60/40 on you. Good enough to keep my vote, and you're definitely #1 on my scum list (I have no #2, although Thor is probably a vague #3 ), but if something better presents itself I could consider changing my vote.

Fine. I already said I don't care at this point.

Well, since every time I type "vote" in some form between

tags people turn incredibly rabid, I just won't vote for the rest of the game, only speculate. Have fun with that.

[Thor665]

Why do you think proclaiming a plan that is hurtful to town should get us to relax our votes on you?

If you're genuinely not having fun I apologize, and recommend considering replacing out or just taking a breather and coming back in.
If you think this actually qualifies, in any way, as a reason for people to not vote you; you are very much mistaking.

[EarthIntruder]

Got to agree that the unvote isn't exactly helping.

Personal experience after that "trap" line. It's... a thing.

Care to elaborate a little?

I'll wait till my next post to start going at other people.

Ok, back to scumhunting: And... I'm not good at coming up with accusation posts yet. I've always been more of a Phoenix Wright than a Miles Edgeworth.

...Still waiting for a scumhunting post.

Well, since every time I type "vote" in some form between

tags people turn incredibly rabid, I just won't vote for the rest of the game, only speculate. Have fun with that.

I promise we're not trying to be assholes, we're just looking for scum. If you really want to prove you're not, then ask questions, analyze, try to scumhunt as well.

Anyway, at this point I don't suspect anyone, even Subterfuge (despite his nasty bastardage).

Why don't you suspect Subterfuge?

EarthIntruder, why tell us you approve of a wagon without providing further insight into why? Was the wagon beneficial merely by existing? I'd say it certainly is now since we've got Subterfuge in an interesting situation, but you posted before his vote, so why not cast one of your own or tell us why you approve?

Yeah, the wagon was beneficial because it existed. Early random bandwagons are a good, easy way to get information from the other players. I would've joined the bandwagon if tvellalot wasn't already at L-2. That'd be too risky.

FoS: tvellalot

Thor is right. Try harder.

Okay, so one thing I should mention about me is that I really don't like FoS-ing. Not to say that I think it's scummy, necessarily, I just think it's a dumb convention. Normally I wouldn't say anything, but I find it interesting that you've switched the players you were previously voting and FoS-ing. Why not ask him something specific if you suspect him? And would I be correct in saying he's your second suspect?

@Finner, ah, okay, I understand. For the record, it might be better to re-phrase your question next time. I didn't realize you were asking us whether we preferred being townie or scum, I just thought you meant which kind of player do we prefer.

[laonious]

Sorry for taking so long to get involved, rl stuff out of nowhere.
I'll post thoughts on each player so far:
tvellalot:
Nothing so far off of you, except horrible luck. I am surprised though that the mafia didn't take advantage of you being at L-1 to go for an easy lynch, and then pull a "oops my bad," a la subterfuge. No read. Though, as EI asked, why don't you suspect subterfuge?

Ibarra:
Seems to be a cautious townie. I liked his catch of subterfuge's ate. He's only made three posts though (not that I'm judging ) so I can't say more then slight townie feel. Little more than gut.

Finner:
Not sure what the deal with the questions was. I can kind of buy the "trap" thing, but I don't think that was the best way to go about it. What I don't like is that in his views of everyone, the only scum read he claims to have is on subterfuge. Which everyone has. That makes me a little suspicious.

Subterfuge:
Ah, subterfuge. Not gonna lie, I, like most of you, didn't like the "random" L-1. I can see myself making that sort of mistake if I jumped in quickly though, so I'm not going to do much more than frown at it.

Roundabout:
It seems like your vote for Ibarra is solely because he's reluctant to vote at this point? I'm not sure what's scummy about that. If anything, I'm feeling a little cautious as well when someone can get to L-1 before a meaningful post. What exactly do you want to see? A random vote? If so, then doesn't not seeing one say little? Or are you looking for meaningful votes at this point?

Zipperflesh:
Getting a good town feel, but his insistence that he seems suspicious just because of his playstyle strikes me as odd. It might be because I'm new, but all I see is someone arguing that quirky = not-suspicious. Gut says town, but I've played before with people who manage to -just- cross that line of seeming to be trying too hard to show they're town. Zipper is flirting with that line imo.

Earthintruder:
Nothing much to go on for me, just seems to be playing it straight. The subterfuge attack is noted though, I think there will be a lot of information in who did and didn't attack subterfuge for his gaff.

Thor:
Tough for me. I read his last game while I was in the queue, just by chance. I haven't seen anything different about him (he was town). I'm definitely gonna keep my eye on him though, just because if he is scum, I expect extreme sneakiness.

I'm gonna FoS Finner for having nothing negative to say about anyone except the obvious target.

[EarthIntruder]

I'm gonna FoS Finner for having nothing negative to say about anyone except the obvious target.

Again, why a FoS and not a vote? Unless I'm mistaken, Finner hasn't got any on him.

[Subterfuge]

Why do you think proclaiming a plan that is hurtful to town should get us to relax our votes on you?

Not to relax your votes on me so much as stop and take a quick breath.

At least I can feel everyone letting off me. Not completely, though now it's more of a "you're all looking over your shoulders at me" rather than a "you're all staring me down in the face" situation.

But hey, I got lemons, and you know how the saying goes "Life gives you lemons, throw them back and demand limes." Here we go.

1) tvellalott- You're passive. I mean REALLY passive. Do something before you start looking kind of scummy.

2) Ibarra- While you are more involved than tvellaott, you're distancing yourself from danger. You're also keeping quiet about everything besides your suspicions of a player that most every has at least some suspicion towards (ie. me)

3) Finner- I still don't really think you're scum. Waiting for you to do some more stuff.

4) laonious- You're playing the game from a calm, logically stand point. Actually, I quite like it and am getting a pretty smooth town read off of you. Though I only have one post to work with...

5) Subterfuge- I dunno. He seems like a pretty ok dude.

6) roundabout- You're reading the game with cold logic. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a dangerous thing. You are, however,

7) zipperflesh (SE)- Sometimes you're being really proactive and pro-town and other times it feels like you're grasping at straws for anything and everything. Don't have a good enough read on you in either direction.

8) EarthIntruder (SE)- You seem to be trying to keep a level head here. It also feels like you're trying to stir up the hive quite a bit. There's also something else about you that isn't quite setting right with me... Though I'll sit on this info until a more appropriate time.

9) Thor665 (IC)- The fact that you were the first to turn on me after my disaster is giving me a slight town read on you.

---

If I HAD to be particularly suspicious about anyone so far it would be Ibarra and EI. Though while I'm at it.

FoS: Ibarra

And those of you talking about me and my AtE: Get used to it. I will probably appeal to emotions a lot. Not for any sort of devious way. That's just the kind of person I am.

I promise we're not trying to be assholes, we're just looking for scum. If you really want to prove you're not, then ask questions, analyze, try to scumhunt as well.

It's fine. I don't handle well under pressure. All of this interrogating of me due me making a mistake was stressing me out too much to analyze everyone else correctly.