Mini 1073: Autumn Mafia - Game Over!

[Netlava]

Questions:
Timezone- Pacific
Experience- a lot
Post frequency- often

[Netlava]

Ice, shorter days do not necessarily mean less content. Your excuse is pointless, not to mention invalid.

Shattered viewpoint, have we played together before? I think we may have.

[Netlava]

Equinox, thanks for disappearing for a few days. Were you aware of the BaM ruleset when you agreed to replace in? (Personally, I wasn't)

Not to seem like a jerk, but disappearing for a few days is a pretty big deal considering the deadline length. And thanks for changing your avatar after your first post.

[Netlava]

Oso, I don't follow your reasoning. No one's putting a gun to your head saying that you have to rank me and llama.

[Oso]

Oso, I don't follow your reasoning. No one's putting a gun to your head saying that you have to rank me and llama.

Nope, no one did. I just went ahead and ran the possible questions through my head and pre-empted the "Oso, since you seem to have been the first minor wagon, who on it do you suspect of being scum?"

From my post, I hope it's obvious that I don't suspect anyone who voted me so far of being scum. At least not at the moment. If I ever suspect you, Zinive or Llamarble of being scum, it certainly won't be because of those votes on me on the first page.

To anticipate what I think will be your next question though, "Then why rank them at all?" It was your first game post. No reason whatsoever to give any reason at all (other than maybe a joke) to a vote. A very minor blip on the scumdar but at this point in the game, worth mentioning I think. If nothing else it might have gotten an over-eager scum to come after me for already trying to set up future lynches. Or over-eager town, hard to say but I didn't expect you'd mention something as minor as that. Figured you might sit back as well and see if anyone noticed and ran with it.

[FeRnAnDo]

1) GMT/UTC-3 . Seriously, i don't understand PDT, PST or pacific. Pacific is a huge ocean, i'm sure there are various timezones over there, please specify using a notation that the rest of the world uses (either GMT or UTC)

2) rather experienced, have some games finished. moderated one. and after a nice hiatus, i came back and played a newbie game. this is my second game since this hiatus.

3) Often, i hope. I struggle hard to make at least 1 post per day, but i surely read all new posts as soon as i get notified.

are we still on RVS? i think so. then i'll VOTE: Netlava, for making 4 posts in a row with that scary avatar.

I agree with the guy in blue avatar (i still have to write down names and memorize 'em) who said worst thing is multiple anime avatars in a game. i hate that, thank god this game seems to be free of it.

hi all!

[ICEninja]

Ice, shorter days do not necessarily mean less content.

Really? Assuming that most normal game days run most of their duration and people's posting habits don't change based on ruleset, we'll have 1/3rd of the content that we have on 3 week deadlines. I'm assuming people will post slightly more, and I realize that not all games run to their deadline, so I'm inclined to believe it is more likely going to be about half the content. Several people are saying they'll post about once an RL day.

You realize this is significant, don't you? That means about 6 posts per game day. My cases frequently involve evidence spread over many pages, and I'll simply have less to work with. A lot of people vote based on gut reads, but you'll find that I generally don't vote unless I have a good logical reason to do so. With fewer posts to analyze, I'll have less to work with.

Your excuse is pointless, not to mention invalid.

Oh so it's an excuse now? And also invalid? If it is invalid, then you should be able to prove that BaM ruleset games have as much content to make cases in than more standard rulesets, yes?

Oso, I don't follow your reasoning. No one's putting a gun to your head saying that you have to rank me and llama.

Where did this come from? You seem to have taken his colorful analogy way too seriously. Since when is it confusing to list which suspicious player looks slightly more suspicious?

Seriously, i don't understand PDT, PST or pacific.

My apologies, I usually specify that PDT is (I believe) GMT -7.

I'd like to point out that a decent number of people are talking about posting once per day, or slightly more than once per day. I hope everyone realizes that we're only going to be getting 6 or so posts per game day out of you if you do that, and each V/LA is extremely significant. Everyone needs to do their best to comment and post in this game as much as possible. Even minor contributions such as interesting things to note, supplementary points for cases, and questions.

Mod, I would hazard a suggestion that when you start a game off with this ruleset that you make it clear that days are so short. I seem to recall you saying something about this game using the BaM ruleset in the queue, but that previously meant nothing to me.

[Llamarble]

Vote: Zinive

Where did this come from? You seem to have taken his colorful analogy way too seriously. Since when is it confusing to list which suspicious player looks slightly more suspicious?

Oso's post had actually confused me too, but the more recent clarifying post makes sense of it.
Basically, what was confusing was not that he was listing "which suspicious player looks more suspicious."
He mentioned that both of us seemed to be seeking to end RVS (which I interpreted as him seeing us as pro-town).
Then he said that Net's vote seemed "worse" than mine (a choice of words which I felt indicated him seeing us both as suspicious).
That was what seemed contradictory to me.
The clarifying post (saying he was answering "who on the bandwagon is most suspicious") makes the word choice "worse" sound more appropriate.

Ice is entirely correct that we will have less information to go off of.


It's hard to hunt scum with so little real information on the table, but to preempt the same question Oso did
(I realize I don't have a wagon, but there are three players who seem suspicious of me):

Since several people seem to share the view that a mafia member might go for a quicklynch by moving their vote to a nascent RVS bandwagon,
I no longer strongly suspect all of you of not believing that statement.
I still personally believe that it isn't a scummy play unless the wagon grows to a dangerous size and the player does not retract their vote.

Zinive said:

I also thought that the 3rd vote was scummy since this is most of the times the point where random voting can turn into a bandwagon. The reasoning given for why also doesn't satisfy me. Oso is talking currently adding pressure now just seems odd.

Sure Oso was talking, but at the time of my post it was all sweet nothings and a random vote.
A few votes hopefully gets people to produce useful game content like examination of the motives of the people of their bandwagon.

Zinive is the third player to go after me. (Opportunism)
He tries to add to the reasoning against me so it looks like he's not just following the most promising lynch (Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a common scum technique?)
But his added reason seems very weak to me. (running into the "scum say things they don't believe" situation again)
The fact that he doesn't vote me after stating suspicion and adding a reason makes it seem like he wants to lay low and avoid looking opportunistic.
(Scum want to avoid notice while pushing the town toward false lynches; stating suspicion and not voting lies in this vein.)


This earned my first suspicion based vote.

[Netlava]

Ok, fine, Ice. I can see what you mean by less content. I figured the general assumption would be for post frequency to go up to make up for the shorter deadline, thus resulting in about the same amount of content.

Oso's remark struck me odd for reasons described by llama. I can sort of follow his reasoning now.

Unvote

Also, Oso, there's no reason NOT to give a reason with a random vote, either. Whereas giving a reason may or may not provoke a response.

[AGar]

The day began quietly, with the first hours passing by. No one seemed ready to make any accusations

Votecount 1.1

cruelty (1)

- Oso

FeRnAnDo (1)

- Me=Weird

ICEninja (1)

- Equinox

Llamarble (1)

- Xine

Me=Weird (0)

-

Netlava (1)

- FeRnAnDo

Oso (0)

-

PerArdua (0)

-

Shattered Viewpoint (0)

-

Equinox (0)

-

Xine (0)

-

Zinive (1)

- Llamarble

Not Voting (12)

- cruelty, ICEninja, netlava, PerArdua, Shattered Viewpoint, Zinive

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.

6 players

are the current wagon leader(s), at

L-6

Deadline is October 29th, 2010 @ 11:59 PM EDT

@ICEninja

I apologize, but the BaM ruleset is openly accessible on the wiki beforehand, and that's why I made mention of that note in the Queue. I'm sorry, I hope it doesn't affect your game experience adversely.

@All

With regards to deadlines and timezones, I use a countdown clock, so you can all see how long it is until the deadline. Just click the link, and you will be taken to a separate timer page that will give the time left to you in days, hours, minutes and seconds.

[Zinive]

I can understand your reasoning Llamarble but I need to make clear that I have simply given my opinion on the matter at hand and I will continue doing it throughout the game.

This being said I did find Osos reasoning appealing and correct so I have no complains there.

I think we still don't have a good reason to start moving a bandwagon to already make a lynch but assuming the short deadline and the low amount of content we have right now I don't think your vote on me is too suspicious Llamarble.

I will try to put up a larger post in around 7 hours.

[Xine]

So far, Oso gets a quick little wagon, doesn’t seem to particularly notice, until other players bring it up. Llamarble gets one vote, and a few players mention amiability towards the reason, yet don't place vote, and Llamarble feels the need to self defend as if he were the subject of a wagon.

Also, Netlava places a random vote on Oso, for "being ansty" and "antsy could describe the tone of every one of his posts since then.

[Oso]

So far, Oso gets a quick little wagon, doesn’t seem to particularly notice, until other players bring it up.
...

This is absolutely true, being that it was Day 1 and pretty much still in the RVS, I wasn't going to mention it unless it became a topic of discussion and then only negatively.

None of the three: Zinive, Lllama or Netlava are currently on my scumdar for those votes. The votes themselves are null or slight town.

My only interest in my small wagon was to try and use it as a springboard to start my own scumhunting and see who might have tried to turn one of those voting me into scum based on the votes alone. So far I haven't seen that. Just some minor twitches by players on Llamarble's no reason vote. The negative comments cast at Zinive by Llamamarble are unrelated to his vote on me, as far as I can tell, but rather on Zinive's unvote and failure to vote the player he was casting suspicion on.

The only useful information (if any) I, or anyone, will get off my wagon will be in hindsight.

[ICEninja]

Oso, that is the kind of avatar that gives nightmares. Jeez.

I liked Llama's vote a lot. I don't feel like Oso has done anything suspicious or confusing, though I suppose I understand where the confusion came from. Any attempt at bandwagoning at this stage probably means the person wants to generate discussion, but scum goals can very easily be accomplished in this stage of the game, especially under the guise of trying to do the "most town" thing. Don't mistake that with the "too townie" argument, because throwing down votes that don't really make sense (Zinive's didn't really make much sense to me) makes it feel like he just wanted to advance the largest bandwagon.

As I've stated before, simply voting for the sake of voting doesn't actually stimulate discussion, except in the case of making people suspicious of you. If you intentionally did something scummy in order to get us out of the RVS, that is anti-town because it distracts from scum hunting.

Fernando, realize that "at least one post per day" is not often at all in this rule set. It is one thing if you're consistently putting out solid posts with good analysis every day, but otherwise you're not going to contribute enough for people to get a solid read on you.

I definitely feel like this is a little weird:

are we still on RVS? i think so. then i'll VOTE: Netlava, for making 4 posts in a row with that scary avatar.

He asks this question to hedge his move. He does this in order to give himself a back door just in case what he did ended up being scummy. Now people can't come in saying "RVS is over why did you make a dumb vote?", and I don't think hedging your actions is very town.

M=W hasn't done anything to contribute to this game at all save his random vote. Granted his signature states that he isn't going to be posting on Tuesdays, it seems like he should at least post Monday night if that is the case.

PerArdua likewise has only given us a single post to work with. While it contains more than M=W's, there was no actual comments on the game itself; only an avatar related comment and answering my questions.

I'm better than all of you, and the sooner you realize that and treat me as such, the easier this game will be.

So your 6ish posts per game day are really going to be good enough to be better than all of us? So far you're one of our weakest players. You haven't done anything constructive yet except be irritating.

I refuse to participate in Random Voting, so let me know when you're done with that.

I haven't participated in that all game, and instead have jumped straight in to analyzing player moves and motives. If you're so great at this game, you'd be doing that yourself. Instead you take the lazy rout and demand that others do it? Definitely not a good start at all. You'd better impress me extremely quick with some very insightful analysis.

I'm a bit interested by Xine's most recent post. All she did was tell us about several of the things that have happened. Why bother to make a post with a recap? Shouldn't you analyze the events that happen and instead give us some insight as to what you think about it? Perhaps call someone out as suspicious, or ask some questions?

I've seen scum slide through the day relatively unnoticed by virtue of posting and talking about what has happened without giving much in the way of actual opinions.

[Netlava]

Also, Netlava places a random vote on Oso, for "being ansty" and "antsy could describe the tone of

every one

of his posts since then.

My main objection here is that while I could see someone describing my overall posting style as "antsy," saying that every single post I've made is "antsy" feels like slightly inaccurate rhetoric.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

1) GMT/UTC-3 . Seriously, i don't understand PDT, PST or pacific. Pacific is a huge ocean, i'm sure there are various timezones over there, please specify using a notation that the rest of the world uses (either GMT or UTC)

Seriously, I don't understand GMT/UTC whatever that European bullshit is. I also can't be arsed to google it. However,

if

you care so much about when we might post,

and

you don't "get it" when we mention our timezones, perhaps you could use this nifty little website called Google.

ICEninja, if you don't like my playstyle, nightkill me. Don't badger me to death in-thread. You'll just end up pissing me off and that won't end well for anyone.

Vote: ICEninja

There's a difference in being self-confident (like I am) and being rude. (as you are). You're trying (a little too hard, IMO) to draw attention away from yourself by deeply going into "analysis" so early in the game (yeah, yeah, it's not that early what with the microscopic deadline and all). I'm reasonably sure you're scum.

Xine, in your Mafia experience, have you played both Town and mafia roles?

@Mod:

I don't even recall seeing BaM mentioned in the queue. not complaining, just a bit surprised. But then, games that drag on too long irritate me for other reasons, so.

[Llamarble]

@Xine:
There's not a whole lot of information yet, so I think it's useful to analyze small things like suspicion-wagons.
Certainly if the scum are playing well they won't make many mistakes and we shall have to catch them at minor slips.
I think it's always useful to explain yourself if somebody is suspicious of you as long as you're not just being repetitive; content is good.

@ Iceninja:
I'm just a little confused by your most recent post (not in an "it's suspicious" way but rather an "I'm not sure what you mean" way).
Could you clarify which of my votes you liked?
When you say "Zinive's didn't really make sense to me," are you talking about his expression of suspicion? He didn't actually vote me.

Also, I agree intentionally being scummy to get us out of RVS isn't a good move.
I hadn't expected suspicion for adding my vote to Oso, hence my surprise when suspicion was expressed.

I agree that one important place to look for scum is at people who look like they're coasting on RVS / "standard" play.
Particularly in the case of a short day, it seems like an easy way to lay low until somebody else accrues suspicion.
On the other hand, pumping out a lot of birds-eye-view analysis is another way to draw attention away from your self,
so nobody has earned a town read thus far.

I do want to hear more opinions of Zinive.

[Netlava]

Shattered viewpoint, it's important for town to complain about playstyles (mostly lurking) so that lurkers don't skate by without saying anything. It's not rude - it's necessary.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

But I am not lurking, therefore your argument is null.

[Llamarble]

While "going deeply into analysis" doesn't prove somebody is town, it is at least a pro-town behavior since it lets people examine you and helps with examination of others.
And a playstyle of making posts that don't have a lot of content is not really substantially better than lurking, so it's still worthy of being pointed out as not pro-town.

The exchange between Shattered and Ice feels a little bit more like artificial distancing to me than legitimate back and forth.
Both have made accusations that seem unlikely to get the other into real trouble while showing some animosity for each other.
If one flips scum I'll be suspicious of the other.

[Zinive]

Llamarble I did not vote for you since I thought it isn't justified just yet and I simply sounded my opinion.

I'm better than all of you, and the sooner you realize that and treat me as such, the easier this game will be.

Shattered could you please tell me your motivation to write sentences like this?

[AGar]

The autumn wind whistled through the air, shaking the now-turned leaves, readying them to plummet to the ground. Whoever you chose for the days lynch would not be so lucky as the leaves, for they would fall fast and heavy, and their toes would dangle high above the ground.

Votecount 1.2

cruelty (1)

- Oso

FeRnAnDo (1)

- Me=Weird

ICEninja (2)

- Equinox, Shattered Viewpoint

Llamarble (1)

- Xine

Me=Weird (0)

-

Netlava (1)

- FeRnAnDo

Oso (0)

-

PerArdua (0)

-

Shattered Viewpoint (0)

-

Equinox (0)

-

Xine (0)

-

Zinive (1)

- Llamarble

Not Voting (5)

- cruelty, ICEninja, netlava, PerArdua, Zinive

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.

ICEninja

are the current wagon leader(s), at

L-5

Deadline is October 29th, 2010 @ 11:59 PM EDT

@Shattered Viewpoint

Apparently I did not. I apologize, especially if anyone has an outright objection with the BaM ruleset. For a good rule of thumb, if I'm modding, expect BaM.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Llamarble I did not vote for you since I thought it isn't justified just yet and I simply sounded my opinion.

I'm better than all of you, and the sooner you realize that and treat me as such, the easier this game will be.

Shattered could you please tell me your motivation to write sentences like this?

Just offering some sage advice. Learn it, live it, be it.



Alternate (closer to reality) answer: I'm an insufferable asshole.

[cruelty]

hello.

1: i'm gmt+12 (new zealand)
2: don't know, don't keep track. 20ish games total i'd guess.
3: varies. at least once per day.

don't really care about anything that's been posted thus far. reads like the usual early game irrelevant banter. that said, i just skimmed briefly before lunch. i'll be back in a bit and see if there's anything actually worth talking about.

[ICEninja]

My main objection here is that while I could see someone describing my overall posting style as "antsy," saying that every single post I've made is "antsy" feels like slightly inaccurate rhetoric.

While I agree that your posts can't really be described as "antsy", your original vote against Oso stated that his posts seem "antsy". Yet I've not seen anything that even comes remotely close.

I also can't be arsed to google it.

perhaps you could use this nifty little website called Google.

I'm an insufferable asshole.

Yeah.

Shattered, I'm not being rude. You simply stated in the same post "I'm better than all of you" and "I'm not going to participate for now". What was I supposed to do, say, "OK take your time princess"? And you were indeed lurking up until this afternoon, so Net's point isn't invalid, because he is referring to a situation that was true at the time.

If you think it is scummy to start trying to get activity when, judging by current post rates, we aren't going to fill up a 10th page before deadline then you are insane. I'm simply doing the best analysis I can considering what content we have. Once we have more and better content to analyze, I will re-analyze the situation and hopefully come up with a good lynch candidate.

Llama, I'm sorry if I wasn't particularly clear in my post.

Could you clarify which of my votes you liked?

Your vote against Zinive was pretty good considering what information we have so far.

When you say "Zinive's didn't really make sense to me," are you talking about his expression of suspicion? He didn't actually vote me.

I wasn't referring to his vote or suspicion towards you. It was actually an error, I meant to say his unvote (of Oso). I don't understand why Zinive unvoted Oso without voting for anyone else.