Fringe Mafia (Game Over, role PMs posted)

[PogoStick]

Day 1 - 16 posts
Day 2 - 71 posts

nuff said.

No.

wow what a completely illogical response to a logical post

the fact that your post count has almost quadrupled is more than enough proof of what I was saying.

once you were put under pressure you decided that lurking wasn't the best tactic

[PogoStick]

my case on emp in a nutshell

1. lack of scum hunting day 1
2. bandwagon hopping between furck and myself
3. denies bandwagon hopping and even claims to be on the wagon early, however emp was vote number 4 out of 7 for furc, the 4th vote officially makes a bandwagion
4. starts next day and votes me claiming "same as yesterday" however he never made a real case on me in day 1
5. claims him voting first or voting early on a wagon somehow proves he is scum hunting
6. still claims to scum hunt but still hasn't shown any evidence
7. claims to have reads on other scum, claims he actually has 4 scum reads however he won't share them with anyone
8. results to false accusations (straw man) and insults (VI calling)
9. claims that me and DB are buddying and asks who his buddies, clearly an attempt to make us seem like scum and him not scum
10. denies that his motivation of #9 was to make himself look town
11. throws setup speculation of a possible SK, this comes out of no where
12. Tries to act like he never accuses myself and DB of buddying and later tries to change it to mean we are teaming up
13. he says BV doesn't look like he is trying for the mislynch by voting me, but how can he know it would be a mislynch if he knew I was town.
14. he declares BV is town but later backtracks and changes it to 80% he is town
15. directs most of his posts towards TM, in an obvious attempt to get TM on his side
16. his activity increases day 2 when accusations towards him go up, his activity almost quadruples
17. basically the only thing he can come up with in day 2 is "Db and I are buddying or teaming up" and "he has scum reads on people but is taking them to his grave"
18. earlier he claims he refuses to respond to me anymore, essentially shutting off communication but when he is called on it as being anti-town behavior, he decides that it wasn't a good idea anylonger.

[PogoStick]

I'm not going to post cases on SV and GW

because I want people to vote Hop rather than SV and GW.

Empking, how is that philosophy not tunneling? There is at least one other scum out there.

I've got

four

scum reads on players. That's why I'm not tunelling. I'm just not going to expend my energies to prevent Hop from getting lynched when he's clearly scum.

you have said many time you were not going to post cases

you saying you have 4 reads

[PogoStick]

His reaction towards you doesn't look like bussing or like scum voting a townie. Therefore if he's neither bussing nor trying for a mislynch he must be town.

this is where your "bull" comment was about

[PogoStick]

here was your number 10 -

I'm not going to post cases on SV and GW because I want people to vote Hop rather than SV and GW.

I can keep going on and debunk all your responses but I don't have that much time and don't want to clutter the thread anymore.

[PogoStick]

ok so it was for your #7 not #10

[PogoStick]

your post 54 - 58 is basically how you won't post your reads on anyone else because you want me lynched - This is NOT pro town behavior because you are denying town of your other scum reads

you saying you are taking your reads to the grave is also not benefiting town because you are withholding information from them

scum knows who town is so you keeping information from town only helps scum.

[PogoStick]

Dude you are making this way to easy for me, how can you say bull when people can easily go back and read.

your post 54 -

I'm not going to post cases on SV and GW because I want people to vote Hop rather than SV and GW.

your post 55 -

How is this protown behavior?

How is it not?

your post 56 -

1. I am scumhunting and I am reading players. I can tell you why I find them scummy

but I'm not going to build a proper case and allow your buddies to use them to get you off from being today's lynch.

2. I'm withholding info from the scum. Town can look at the data just like I've done.

3. I've considered the possibility and have found it lacking.

Edit; How in the good lord's name have I been withholding my reads on players. Everybody is well aware who my four main suspects are. And you've rebutted nothing even DB agreed with that (I think).

your post 57 which included the "to the grave"

As town, there is

one

reason to post a case. In order order to get a player lynched. That's it. And unless Primate or TM disagree with me in regards to that

then I'm going to take that to my grave.

(Town doesn't need to be psychic, I know at this point in time I don't have a case on GW I'd have to look at his posts again to make a proper case.)

Smarge: I think bv is clearly town as his actions with regards to Hop certainly look like town actions (it doesn't strike me as bussing nor does it seem careful as we'd expect a scum vote on a townie would be.)

Hop: I'm willing to reevaluate you when new information comes to light.

Everybody: Not that the player who
1. Speaks generally about me saying Hop is misinteprating my posts too much but when given examples agrees that Hop is misinterpreting my posts. Classic scum trying to defend their buddy.
2. Chainsaw defends Hop.
3. Swaps his and Hop's vote (they keep the number of votes the same but allows Hop to move his vote and tries to reduce the connection of them voting me at the same time for a while) on me and just generally acts like Hop's buddy.

Is the one trying to force me into building a case on another player.

post 58

Empking, how is that philosophy not tunneling? There is at least one other scum out there.

I've got

four

scum reads on players. That's why I'm not tunelling. I'm just not going to expend my energies to prevent Hop from getting lynched when he's clearly scum.

And with that I rest your case your honor

in before u say BULL again because saying BULL is a valid case when defending yourself

[PogoStick]

so BV, TM, and whoever else is inactive, please noticed that he can not even come close to posting a similar case on me

his case on me is

1. my comment about scum talking looks fake - however it is well known that scum talking during the day on this site is very rare
2. I was distancing from a townie (doesn't make sense)
3. I left my options open by voting for furclow (Really?)

[PogoStick]

oh wait, I left my options open by finding almost everyone possibly scummy is what he later clarifies.

[PogoStick]

so you say

[PogoStick]

BV: 3 and 8 are not the same thing at all. 2 could be split into two points anyway, so you might be right with regards to being similar to 6.
With regards to three I'm pretty sure you just said "I missed that part XD My bad." with regards to you saying the exact same thing beforehand.

Thoughts on Hop's seventh reason?

I would love to hear everyone's opinion on reason 7 because this I have proven is 100% truth and I can't see how you can squirm your way out of it

I even provided quotes from you saying you won't share your reads so how others can save you now I am not too sure

[PogoStick]

very interesting note, Emp's last log on is registered as Novermber 26th yet he has posted all day, the only time I have logged on anonymous is when I was scum.

you can call it WIFOM or whatever you want to twist it, but I am telling you the truth, the only time I want to hide my online status is when I am scum

I have no idea why he wants to just thought I would point that out as well.

[PogoStick]

very interesting note, Emp's last log on is registered as Novermber 26th yet he has posted all day, the only time I have logged on anonymous is when I was scum.

you can call it WIFOM or whatever you want to twist it, but I am telling you the truth, the only time I want to hide my online status is when I am scum

I have no idea why he wants to just thought I would point that out as well.

Seriously? What the hell are you on? I've logged on as anonymous when I was avoiding a game.

Keep ignoring the game. Post something game relevant or replace out

You still have 2 questions directed towards you and you just seem to be avoiding the entire emp/hop/db debate

[PogoStick]

I'm posting my experience anyway plus he isn't avoiding the game, he is getting caught in lies

[PogoStick]

3.

[

VOTE COUNT 1.01

]

"He's a bit unorthodox."
"He's also tripping his brains out. ...You know that, right?"

[

4

]

Furcolow

- HopOnMyJoystick, LordChronos, Empking, Doombunny9

[

2

]

LordChronos

- TonyMontana, Furcolow
[

1

]

TonyMontana

- Zang

Not Voting: sorasgoof, Shattered Viewpoint, foilist13, GhostWriter, Nocmen

---

Day 1 will end on November 25th, 2010 at 2:00 AM EST (Countdown here) or when someone is lynched.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

oh one more thing, I love how you misrepresent yourself on this one because I was referring to the end of day 1 final vote count

[

VOTE COUNT 1.06

]

A lynch has occurred!

[

7

]

Furcolow

- Doombunny9, TonyMontana, HopOnMyJoystick,

Empking,

Shattered Viewpoint, Nocmen, Zang

[

1

]

HopOnMyJoystick

- LordChronos
[

1

]

Shattered Viewpoint

- Furcolow

Not Voting: sorasgoof, foilist13, GhostWriter

---

[

PRODS

]
Sorasgoof will be replaced, as will Foilist13.
GhostWriter will be prodded.

[PogoStick]

rtft

I have posted all your lies, re-posting them only clutters the thread more

[PogoStick]

clames to be oln the wagon early

early

The first vote count is the "early" one.

Hop: Quotes to back up the lies comment, please.

fine you were on the wagon early and you got off the wagon, once you are off the wagon you can't claim that you were on it early when the lynch is final

that is failed argument.

when the final hammer dropped you were in an opportunistic spot on furc's wagon and final vote count is the one that counts

[PogoStick]

when the FINAL wagon was developing you were in spot 4, spot 4 on a 7 person bandwagon is one of the worst spots to be on because it forces it to a full fledge bandwagon making more than halfway to a lynch.

you really aren't helping your case by saying "earlier in the day I was on his wagon early" final vote count weighs more than any other vote count of the day.

[PogoStick]

the wagon that leads to the lynch has the most influence on the day but nice try and saving yourself

[PogoStick]

the fact that bv posts on site and not in here means he is not interested in scum hunting, so I will add him to my definitely scum category

[PogoStick]

Getting off the wagon *does* negate any claims of being early.

Of course, this argument would have been much more relevant if fur had been scum.

"Town should ignore information that helps to find scum" - Is this a fair paraphase of your last comment. If not, how not?

how do you even get that?

[PogoStick]

so TM, thoughts on who is scum?

[PogoStick]

But make sure you read this before responding, this supports my #7

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2643292

[PogoStick]

Btw emp the order may be out of place, would this make you look less scummy?

Won't share reads on others
Claims to have 4 scum reads

Umm no still sounds scummy

[PogoStick]

hello, when are these other guys going to post

[PogoStick]

Mod any luck replacing Shattered Viewpoint yet?

[PogoStick]

@Mod:

With deepest apologies, I am going to have to

ask to be replaced.

Reality has burst through (yet again) with things that desperately need my attention.

Beep.

in case you missed it mod

[PogoStick]

@emp, the issue is not who your scum reads are like I said, the issue is you refuse to make cases on any of them

How is TM tunneling anyway?

[PogoStick]

And I didn't quote "random posts". I quoted posts you made regarding the subject of you refusing to provide your info

[PogoStick]

Well atleast you have realized you are caught

More votes on emp please

[PogoStick]

Emp you are looking too much into the poor wording of my sentence, I'm harping on the fact that you refuse to post your cases on the people you find scummy, I'm not talking about your refusal to list the named of them

[PogoStick]

smargaret, I am not "trying" to look anything. I am playing the way I play. lack of activity is what makes these games boring and these days drag on forever when they don't have to. Emp is clearly scum yet nobody is around to do anything about it

[PogoStick]

Emp you are looking too much into the poor wording of my sentence, I'm harping on the fact that you refuse to post your cases on the people you find scummy, I'm not talking about your refusal to list the named of them

[PogoStick]

Emp, if it makes you feel better I have noticed DB seems to just follow instead of make his own cases

But you have done nothing still to show your town motivation

[PogoStick]

Dude it's obvious i have been on you for refusing to share your READS on people

Stop the straw man

[PogoStick]

Psst, let's go to the tape Alex

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2639086

I call you on you refusing to make cases, that has been the basis of this entire debate. My #7 is clear even when poorly written

You won't give your reads
You find 4 people scum

You are really grasping at straws

Again, I called you out for keeping your reads to yourself, it's not pro town behavior

Making up shit like you are only makes you look scummier

[PogoStick]

Look I'm gonna say this one more time and than the gloves are coming off

I am not talking about who your 4 scum are, I have been talking about your reasons why they are scum

I have clarified this multiple times yet you keep harping on the names

I know who your 4 people are but not what they have said or done to make you suspect them.

This is the worst I have seen you play man

[PogoStick]

you know when I checked in a few minutes ago and saw zang's name at the bottom of the screen I was hopeful we were finally getting his posts he promised, I see that was a lie and I can only think that he doesn't have much to say since is scum buddy emp is flailing all over the place.

I officially move Zang up to scum buddy number 2 with BV as scum number 3, assuming that is that we have 3.

this game is quickly about to be abandoned imo.

just cause we have a 3 week deadline people doesn't mean we have to use the entire 3 weeks. There is MORE than enough information to make a decision on who to lynch.

[PogoStick]

no because you didn't vote emp, he is clearly scum but I get you are protecting him so wasn't expecting it tbh

[PogoStick]

oh and yes calling somebody a VI is technically an insult because I means idiot, and calling a person an idiot.

if I call myself a VI, that is one thing but nobody has the right to just blanket call someone a VI, I don't care if it is the norm on this site, it's fucking retarded and INSULTING.

[PogoStick]

we can discuss VIs in another thread, let's not clog up the game.

also I would ask in the future can you refrain from these epically long posts with multiple quotes, it is really hard to read, especially when people are checking in on their phones, but I am on my desktop right now and I am having trouble deciphering who the hell you are talking to half the time.

[PogoStick]

1. no town is often accused of using AtE by scum, this is the consensus I have seen in games I have read and in other discussions on site
2. insulting a player is scummy
3. insult is anti-town becauseit is scummy play, there is no need to insult people
4. "But most town aren't pro-town. Even if they intend to be pro-town, most are neutral or antitown. And there is a diffeence between not pro-town, anti-town and scummy, only scummy is vote worthy."

This makes no sense to me

5. "
You can not say that someone is not scum hunting because they are scum hunting you."

But I have proven he wasn't scum hunting me, he if anything was just spaghetti throwing

6. regaridng your question about emp saying "same as yesterday"

I said it isn't good enough because he never gave a valid reason for his votes on me day 1 so it made no sense for him to use that. plus he implied his voting first was somehow scum hunting which is also fail logic

7. you never provided a valid case, that is how I can say you never posted a valid case. Hiding your reasons in walls of text where nobody can see them hurts town, not helps them. the way you post these walls of text actually hurt town because it makes it impossible to respond to them easily. I am having a bitch of a time right now, you are purposely complicating things in hopes people will just not respond to you.
8. "I have already explained why NL is not anti-town. I've also already given you my thoughts on statistics in general, all statistics are WIFOM."

you can give your reasons all you want but saying statistics are WIFOM is actually crap, statistics that can prove something is FACT. Also No lynch is NEVER pro-town because it makes the vote count invalid for comparison later plus it just gives mafia a free kill, the fact that you think NL is acceptable, is anti-town thinking. just to clarify NO LYNCH IS NEVER PRO-TOWN

9. you really don't understand the term active lurking - from wiki "A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game. Their posts may be minimal in length, off-topic, or merely parroting what other players have already said" and quite a few people are doing that, I am making my case and emp keeps providing me with more evidence. I can say someone like DB could be accused of active lurking cause he fits into the "parroting"
10. I asked emp specifically if I was L-1, because he seemed so convinced I was scum I fear that even if I claimed he would not believe me, which is anti-town behavior to not be open to the idea of changing his mind, which I don't feel like he would and I still don't feel like he would change his mind about me.
11. emp's directed almost all of his posts at that time towards one person, it is scummy because it seems like he is trying to get that one person on his side, he shoudl be directing it to everyone not just TM
12. I don't understand how a VI can be anti-town when V stands for village, if a person is anti-town than call hm an SI. VI implies that he is town, SI implies he is scum
13. you just proved my point about opinions, everyone has their own but nobody can trust the opinion of anyone else, which is why opinions aren't valid in this game.
14. I don't believe I was arguing that he was first, he was the one saying he was early on. Even if originally he was first, the fact that he came of and went back invalidates his previous positions. his final vote on the wagon is the only one that counts and he was in an opportunistic location on that wagon. plus he was vote hopping back and forth, he just wanted to lynch which ever VI he could, he had no interest in helping town catch scum.
15. I already posted my bullet point case on emp
16. ".He said 90%., He never changed anything, he said that he was 90% sure that he is town, nobody can ever be 100% sure that someone is town unless they are somehow confirmed."

No originally he made a declarative statement that BV was town, he later retracted it to 90% (yeah I said 8 instead of 90%, who really cares about that. The fact that he declared BV as town (without a percentage) is suspicious cause there is only one way he can know that.
17. "He never admitted to being caught."

Well he shoudl is what i am saying

He just changed his reads, which town are able to do.

seems like he is "keeping his options open" and since he accused me of being scum for doing it, that means he shoudl be accused of scum for doing it

18. "He already gave his reads, he just won't give the reasoning behind 3 of them.

The reason why he hasn't given his cases is probably because you keep calling them reads."

Semantics cause it's fucking obvious I want him to post cases, you just proved it. and why are you defending emp? just proves you are his scum buddy to me

[PogoStick]

this is the best I can do to post responses to your crappy wall of text, if you do this again I am just going to ignore it because there is no easy way to dig through them to respond properly

[PogoStick]

and zang this game is boring because everyone including yourself go inactive

than we get people replace out and the new people go inactive

why the fuck do you think I am harpiong on people being active, activity makes games fun

when 3 people are bitching back and forth it gets old.

[PogoStick]

I will correct myself, the only time NL is acceptable is when MYLO

Day 1 is NEVER acceptable because you can afford a mislynch and the vote count on a mislynch will tell you alot about people later in the game. I am all for Vote analysis and you can't use a NL vote analysis because scum and town will both hop on that without any qualms.

[PogoStick]

Zang has some good points about Hop, and I need to reread him (yuck), but I want to ask something first -

Hop, how is calling someone a VI an unacceptable insult but the phrase "fucking retarded and INSULTING" perfectly fine? Also, I find wall posts to be MUCH easier to read and keep track of in iso than multiple short posts of the sort you're prone to.

because VI is actually being referred to somebody, saying something is retarded and insulting is not being directed at a person, it's a general statement

@ DB - Insulting a player is scummy because I can't see what the town motivation would be. Maybe I am a bit off my rocker with being offended at the VI comment because I have accused others of VI, but I really don't like it and I probably won't call anyone a VI again. You want to call a player a bad player, than do it, but VI to me is just another example of name calling and unneccessary. It also puts that person on edge and makes them more defensive when they don't need to be.

@smargert - yes I find zang scummy, I have even declared him as my number 2 suspect. I find him scummy because he is defending empking who is obviously scummy, and I have posted my case on empking already also I provided a reason why I suspected BV also, he promises a huge catchup posts and basically ignores it all and places a very opportunistic vote on the largest bandwagon.

I am directing votes because it is obvious based on the fact that empking is purposely refusing to post his cases on people he finds scummy that he is not being motivated by town. as a town person there is no reason to withhold your evidence. He even said he would take it to the grave, this is not a pro-town motivated player. This is scum motivation, he just doesn't want to have to make up more lies.

I have not refused to build cases, I built a huge case on empking and nobody has disproven any of it, not even emp himself could not do a good job of defending himself

Empking has not even given a case, not a real one anyway so what the heck are you talking about smargaret?

[PogoStick]

Hop, do you still find Zang scummy? If not, what changed your mind? If so, what has he done today to reinforce your read?

So, in one page of Hop's iso, we have:
-vote Zang
-FOS TM
-FOS Ghost
-vote Empking

and no cases to go with any of them.

Smarget, why the blatant lie?

I posted these on that page, anyone can go back and verify so i don't appreciate you trying to mis-rep me

1. I voted zang for his crappy hammer
2. FOS'd TM for directing the vig
3. FOS'd GW for his comment about furc but no vote
4. Voted emp for his vote hopping

Also yesterday I made arguments against nocman and Lord C, today I have made valid arguments against emp

Emp has made 1 argument against me and part of his case doesn't even make sense, yet you are defending him. Why has his refusal to make a case make him look better than someone who has posted reasons for votes and FOS's.

[PogoStick]

One last thing @ Smargaret

Reading your iso you were agreeing with me about emp, you even voted for him and said "Empking needs to post a case on one other player" however Empking never does, you now excuse him for not making a case when you say " At least Empking has a reason for denying the town information, even if it's not one I agree with."

Why the 180 on emp when he has provided no new information as to why I am scum or anyone else for that matter?

[PogoStick]

Fine maybe it isn't Scum tell but it's just scummy

I may be in the minority when it comes to that beleive im fine with that


@TM - agreed somtimes that is true but sometimes I make sense, like my first 2 posts on this page

[PogoStick]

I agree with Hop.

Empking, whether you're withholding information from scum or not, you're also withholding it from town. That said, I'd rather hear your thoughts on bv than on ghost, since he's gone inactive and requested replacement and we'll get more information/reactions from looking at him. Or you could just do us all a favor and look at all three.

Sadly, I also agree that SV could be faking the PR. There's no way the mod would make a pr that is incapable of giving any information AT ALL, and it would be all too easy for scum to coast to the finish under such a PR. But that is modWIFOM, so I would rather see SV investigated than lynched.

And for the record you never commented on my case that I posted on emp

Furthermore, what's wrong with pointing out behavior I consider scummy, so what if I accuse everyone of scummy behavior, if they said or did something scummy I am going to point it out so others cab make a comment on it

When I get home I'm going to check again but I don't remember seeing emp make a case on anyone.

[PogoStick]

There was nothing wrong with my vote on SV either, he wasn't helping town

Not helping town = scummy play and possibly scum

[PogoStick]

@everyone

Is it pro town or anti town to respond to multiple accusations with. "bull" and explain why

Personally it's anti town because "bull" isn't a valid response, it doesn't say or show why the info is wrong, it also means "to me" that you can't Even formulate a logical reason to dispute it

Emp responded to multiple things in my case with "Bull"

[PogoStick]

I would like emp to provide links to these actions me and DB have supposedly done so I can dispute them or give my reasoning, rest assured I won't reply with "bull"

[PogoStick]

fyi smargret, there has not been any additional votes on me since the last vote count so if you want to put me at L-1 feel free

[PogoStick]

1. Originally he was not scum hunting. But he started scum hunting when you started attacking him.
2. Ok, I didn't know what his original reasons were when I said that.
3. Ok, if statistics if statistics prove fact then I have a 75% chance of being town so I it is a fact that I am town.
4. My point is that there is no 100% town. Have you ever been 100% sure that someone was town? 

Ok these are the only posts you make that truly matter

1. Exactly my point, he didn't start scum hunting til I pointed out he wasn't scum hunting, which should prove this behavior is more suspicious.

2. This is a negative point against you, you need to be aware of something so obvious

3. Can you post a link that proves your statistic is remotely true? Because I was able to post a link for mine. My statistic = actual statistic supported by actual data. Your statistic is supported only by your own claim

4. The only time I have been 100% sure someone was town is when I have been scum, which is why I pointed it out, he originally declared bv as town and went back and covered his tracks by saying he is 90% town. I feel it was a minor slip on his part but it was a slip. The only way he can declare someone town like he originally did would be if he were scum

[PogoStick]

But if he doesn't say why?

[PogoStick]

Please someone tell me how this response to my case on him is pro-town, notice he uses. "bull" and "This I don't even" which can not possibly be town responses to rebut my case

1. Bull
2. Not a scum tell.
3.

[

VOTE COUNT 1.01

]

"He's a bit unorthodox."
"He's also tripping his brains out. ...You know that, right?"

[

4

]

Furcolow

- HopOnMyJoystick, LordChronos, Empking, Doombunny9

[

2

]

LordChronos

- TonyMontana, Furcolow
[

1

]

TonyMontana

- Zang

Not Voting: sorasgoof, Shattered Viewpoint, foilist13, GhostWriter, Nocmen

---

Day 1 will end on November 25th, 2010 at 2:00 AM EST (Countdown here) or when someone is lynched.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

4. Even DB admits this is false.
5. How is this a scumtell?
6. Bull.
7. This I don't even.
8. This I don't even.
9. First part: No I didn't. Second Part: Not a scum tell.
10. Quotes please.
11. How is this a scum tell.
12. Quotes please.
13. Bull
14. Firstly, it was 90%. Secondly, where did I ever suggest that I was 100% sure than bv was town.
15. How is this a scum tell?
16. Coincidence
17. Quotes please.
18. Evidence please.

DB: Thoughts on 7.
TM: Thoughts on 7.
Smarge: Thoughts on 7

[PogoStick]

Okay, Hop, if you say you're at L-2 I'll put you at L-1. Your recent posting hasn't been any better, and the game is starting to stagnate.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hop

You aren't town are you?

To say I have not posted anything better is laughable

I have posted more and more evidence that emp's actions are not pro town and you say this?

[PogoStick]

1. Exactly my point, he didn't start scum hunting til I pointed out he wasn't scum hunting, which should prove this behavior is more suspicious.

But like I said before, I don't find this scummy.

3. Can you post a link that proves your statistic is remotely true? Because I was able to post a link for mine. My statistic = actual statistic supported by actual data. Your statistic is supported only by your own claim

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2604914

Ok there's actually a 67% chance but the point is still true. There are 9 players left in the game assuming that there are 3 scum then there is a 67% chance if there are less then the percentage increases and there wouldn't be more.

4. The only time I have been 100% sure someone was town is when I have been scum, which is why I pointed it out, he originally declared bv as town and went back and covered his tracks by saying he is 90% town. I feel it was a minor slip on his part but it was a slip. The only way he can declare someone town like he originally did would be if he were scum

Exactly, When you think someone is town do you say 90% chance of being town or do you just say town?

if town's job is to scum hunt, how is it town motivated to not scum hunt until somebody calls them out on it?
2.
3. I would say "I think this person is town" I would not say

He isn't trying for a mislynch!

He's town!

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fyi smargret, there has not been any additional votes on me since the last vote count so if you want to put me at L-1 feel free

i'd believe it

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Would you guys believe only one vote has changed since the last time I made a vote count like 6 pages ago?

Hop, this is why what you're saying about empking isn't moving the game forward.

so it's my fault we have inactives and his scum buddies don't want to bus him?

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I have made a very convincing argument against empking, more than anyone has made on me and more than anyone made on furclow, yet nobody wants to vote him.

all he can do is respond to my accusations with "Bull" and accuse me of "annoying him by coordinating my attacks with DB"

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:sigh: I was hoping people may have wised up and unvoted overnight, guess not

I am William Bell, owner of Massive Dynamic. I am pro-town commuter. I am able to go to the alternate universe to prevent being killed or kidnapped

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There are probably some ludicrously minor roles in this game. Attempting to use flavour to outguess the mod may not go as well as you think...

Oh and I'm telling the truth, there is no way if you are pro-town you can honestly say I have not been scum hunting, if I'm wrong on you emp, I'm sorry but you are the biggest read I have right now

I will say that the 180 smarg has pulled definitely has me paying more attention to her as well

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I was referring more to the trying to out-guess the mod

And tbh I have never seen commuter used before so it's minor enough to me

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I knew emp wouldn't

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Emp since it's clear you still don't beleive me,

What are your thoughts on smar's 180? Odd or do you beleive his reasons?

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1. Yes it is town's job to scum hunt, scum already knows who town is. You little example is unnecessary and wifom
2. I say they are scum, sometimes I may say I think they are but if I'm pretty sure I say they are
3. I put pro- town cause I didn't want to copy the actual wording. The actual wording is town hypen (not spelled out) aligned
May be a safe claim in your book but it's the truth, there are restrictions so I'm not unkillable
4. Ok I agree but I'm scum hunting and emp isn't, yet you still coming after me

Emp is refusing to cause he knows he can't

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Scum hunt

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Go play epic mafia with janitor setup

Person is missing

Almost always first response is "find him" or something like that

Plus emp is right, every other night I commute

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Smar your 180 was you thought emp was scum and voted him, you later side with him

That is a 180 if I ever saw one

You even said you agreed with me (pointed that quote earlier)

To now you are against me, yet another 180

But whatever you decide, I'm fine with it. The truth shall come out soon enough

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The more smar talks the more I'm convinced

she

has to be scum

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= OMGUS. Are people not allowed to change reads?

Not when emp never really did what you wanted him to do

You even admitted yourself his case was weak, so you change your reads on a weak case

A case where I asked him to provide links and he hasn't

Vs my case made on him that nobody has disproven and he can't even refute himself

My strong case vs his weak case, yeah lets's keep the week case guy around and kill the guy with the iron clad case

That's pro town (sarcasm)

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The wiki being wrong doesn't change the fact that the claim itself sounds fake; it was the proverbial nail in the coffin.

If you are town you will have egg on your face when it's proved I'm not lying

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Yeah I can choose to commute or not, not required to

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And smar, ignoring my posts don't mean they don't exsist

I would like you to read over all my points I made about emp and tell me if you agree or disagree with them

Than I would like you to tell me why emp's case on me is more believable than my case on him

Also zang even said emp didn't start scum hunting until I attacked ( his word not mine) him, tell me in your opinion why town should not scum hunt until somebody calls them on it, and how does not scum hunting help town catch scum

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Oh and one last thing smar, how does his lack of scum hunting make him more townish, than somebody actively scum hunting

Anyone voting for me can also do the same please

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empking - has completely avoided any type of scum hunting


Ugh. Unfortunately, Hop is right about Empking. No scumhunting, no reasoning behind votes, just hopping on VI wagons. I hate agreeing with Hop. Empking, who do you think BESIDES HOP is scum?

I would like you to pinpoint exactly where you went from this thought to the 180 flip that I am now wrong and emp is not guilty anymore, considering emp has still not scum hunted and he is still on the VI wagon he hopped on to start day 2

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Also, I never agreed with you about Emp - you agreed with me.

also given the previous post, please explain this lie?

cause I have pointed out twice you have AGREED with me, yet you claim it's the other way around

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oh and please point out where I agreed with you

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unvote, vote: smargert

I am on my deathbed so I have nothing else to lose but I just caught her in lies and I NEVER agreed with her.

her 180 flip has no valid reason even after she strongly agreed with me about empking

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I had built a read on Empking during night, you just posted before me. I got the sequence of events confused.

People are allowed to change their minds after further play - I mean, your read on me seems to have changed some, why shouldn't my read on you and Empking have changed based on play Day 2?

Cause I caught you lying and you go 180 and can't pinpoint what has made me scummy all of sudden and what emp did to seem so pro town

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Yeah wiki sure is wrong

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commuter

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http://mafiagameswiki.com/mafiaWiki/Commuter

Or it was just a different wiki ...

So you don't use mafiascum wiki and call me out AND you were caught lying

Well now this is interesting

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I clicked on that site and a game link took me to the site is for psychopath mafia, we are not playing on psychopath mafia

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I don't believe Hop's claim. First,

when I look up commuter on the wiki,

it redirects me to redirector/bus driver page in the wiki:

how does this imply you googled it? looks like you were saying you looked on the wiki, and on this site "the wiki" is always referring to mafiascum wiki

nice try scum

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So using google makes me scum? *confused*

Lying does

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1. Did I say your wifom was scummy?
2. The only one who can know someone is town is scum, I have seen many people lynched for it, myself included. Never once seen anyone called out for saying "you are scum"
3. If there happens to be one less kill, yeah I will think it was due to me commuting but I'll keep those thoughts to myself and not mention it in game unless I had to
4. Nobody has even rebutted my case, everyone has ignored it. I can't speculate why emp hasn't been lynched. We have SV replacing out, bv hasn't been here to read anything I posted, and primate hasn't voted. Those 3 could lynch him or me, who knows
5. It wasn't just his 180, which it is because he agreed with me twice and than lied and denied it, he switched over to emp and his reason is weak. He has been caught lying more than once so yes his actions need more looking into
6. If you can't honestly tell I worded it like that cause of the comment made towards me about epic, than *bangs head on iPhone*

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@HOMJ- Seriously now... How the hell does using a different wiki make someone scum? This has got to be the most insane thing I've heard since someone tried to tell me that lists are scummy... Or did you think smar used an incorrect wiki just to throw everyone off even though a lot of the players in this game know what a commuter is?

because it is the way he said it

he said he used "the wiki" and on mafia scum it is pretty damn obvious when every person asks a question about something the refer you to "the wiki" they are referring to the mafiascum wiki. Why would you use a wiki from another mafia game?

like if I was looking up a role for mafia scum I would not go to this wiki - http://www.glbwiki.com/index.php?title= ... orum_Roles

I would go to the official mafia scum wiki

and because I know for a fact that I am town and I have already caught smar lying about other things, yes I think smar would use an incorrect wiki to throw everyone off.

when you look up something on "the wiki" do you use the mafiascum wiki? or do you use another one?

I use mafiascum wiki because that is where I am playing.

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[face_palm] @ smarg's "the wiki"

Disregard the fact that there's only one "the wiki" to be talked of here, any definitions not found in our wiki might as well be made up be oneself.


Do I really need to spell out that I have role-related privvy info that more or less confirms Hop's commuter claim? Nobody can take a hint in this town?

aparantly subtle hints I guess don't work

thank you for coming forward with this information, maybe now people will believe me and unvote me.

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Mafia be serious yo. ಠ_ಠ

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Fair enough but her other lies need to be looked at eventually

unvote, vote Empking

Back to my scum number 1

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Power roles hint information all the time to prevent being outed, hints ate also called bread crumbs

Besides he didn't even hint that hard, he actually declared I was telling the truth

Clearly he is outing himself to prevent a mislynch since you guys clearly didn't beleive my TRUE claim

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Or cause it's a bastard mod game (whatever that means) he could have something like flavor or role cop instead of normal pro town/ anti town results

All kinds of speculation can go on but day 2 you don't lynch a clear from an un'cc PR

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Omg you were gonna kill me

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Doom, it wasn't just that

It was the fact she said she NEVER agreed with me and instead I agreed with her

But I posted 2 Quotes where she agreed with me about case and I'm unable to find any post where I agreed with her

That is 2 count them 2 lies

I'm not harping on the fact she used another wiki, but she first said she used the wiki and later said she googled it

Why would you google it if the link to the wiki is at the top of the page

Now granted the wiki lie not that big of a deal but the other one is pretty big IMO

I agree emp has gone quiet

I also would like people to unvote me now

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Rb would be told he was RB

You just making yourself look worse

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I commuted last night
Vig tried to kill me and couldn't

YOU smar even asked why vig didn't kill me when you replaced in, that's why

It's not hard to figure out
It is a role guranteed to be in fringe
I'm telling the truth
My actions have been nothing but town motivated unlike emp's

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But my pm doesn't say I can't be investigated, just killed/kidnapped

I'll see if mod can clarify the part about investigations, I'll pm him now

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Her* (sorry bout that mod)

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fwiw, mod clarified all actions against me fail when I commute.

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1. no, it just means that it doesn't mean anything
2. well we will have to agree to disagree than cause I can't see inside your brain and you can't see inside mine (or you are scum and trying to twist everything I say which is far more likely since I KNOW I am town and I have been cleared)
3. no, nobody has rebutted my case against emp. I have not seen anyone respind to all 15+ points to the case so until I see that, no the case has not been rebutted
4. did yo miss the word JUST, it wasn't

JUST

his 180. It was his lying also. 180 for no reason + bold face lying

IS SCUM

there is no way to say lying is pro-town, especially something so obvious of a lie and anyone trying to spin his lies as being pro-town is scum.

notice she has not even commented on the lies or even tried to explain herself, you don't find that odd?

5. I find it scummy that she said she used "THE WIKI", than claimed to Google it, than pointed a link to ANOTHER WIKI NOT RELATED TO MAFIA SCUM. so YES I find it scummy
6. I posted 2 examples of one lie and another lie about the wiki. I have previously pointed out her other skeptical actions as well
7. no i don't consider him lying because I know for a fact that I am town, so anyone who can clear me is clearly not lying especially cause I commuted and mod confirmed all actions failed, he claims his action against me failed so he is most likely telling the truth.
8. I signed up when I saw people saying / in for fringe. I never even saw the mod post in the thread about the game, I just said "OOH I like fringe so why not"
9. the 2nd lie was the whole wiki thing. it was a lie you don't say I saw it in the wiki, oh I googled, oh I found it on another wiki not related to mafia scum, if you are telling the truth.
10. fair enough, I will give you that one
11. well this is a bastard mod game so anything is possible, like mod said, we shoudl not try to out-guess the mod

I am sorry, emp has not done a single thing to help the town catch scum and you guys follow him
I have done everything I can to try and catch scum and 3 people come after me, as emp woudl say, it looks like you guys are trying to lead a coordinated attack against me
we have a PR claiming that what I said is true about being commuter and you accuse him of lying to protect me is such a ridiculous theory

I swear if at the end of the game, it is revealed that either of you 3 (smarg, emp, and zang) are pro-town i am going to nominate you all for the most idiotic mafia player of the year award because you guys are not even thinking logically, the problem is I know atleast one of you 3 are mos tlikely town because there is one person who is so obviously trying to act town but doing a bad job at it that he has to be mafia.

do whatever you want, at this point I have said and done everything I can do to convince you I am telling the truth and all yo do is spin more lies and convuluted stories that make no sense. if the 3 of you are town, town has lost this game already

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How did you address the "I never agreed with you hop, you agreed with me" lie

You were confused?

Bullshit

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I came out posting facts on emp and he responded with "bull"
And "I'm not giving my case on scum cause it helps scum" bullshit logic

How is that pro town?

You never posted things I have done that are scum tells, because you can't, because I haven't done any, because I am freaking town and

CLEARED

by a town PR

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your "I got confused" is not a valid reason because you can go back and look at your posts before you say things if you were truly confused
your "I got confused" is a way to cover your lie, hence it is bullshit


you still have never said, anything about you actually being wrong and that you take back your comment about not agreeing with me.

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Hop,

I screwed up the timeline.

I didn't know the wiki link is at the top of the page. I googled "commuter mafia wiki" and the first link that looked relevant was the one I clicked. Hence, I googled my way to a wiki, it just happened to be the wrong one. Also, you can check the history link - it was last edited last summer.

Adding to what I said earlier, TM, you could have been RB'd. I'm not sure what mod-response that would receive, though.

you just say "Hop, I screwed up the timeline"

you don't say what the fuck you are even talking about when you say it.

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and NOBODY FIND IT ODD that now the pressure if off Emp, he is gone away from the game thread.

that is a scum tell, he only comes around when accused and now the pressure is off has snuck into the backround

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smarget, zang, and empking, if you are pro-town you need to unvote me right now.

because in the game of mafia, you don't lynch a cleared person, and until somebody can come out and prove tony is lying with a CC or something, he is cleared. and he has cleard me so I am cleared,

he hasn't even really said what role he is so he could be vig, or cop, or something else and in every other game if somebody comes out with evidence that somebody is clear, that person doesn't get lynched.

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I had built a read on Empking during night, you just posted before me. I got the sequence of events confused.

People are allowed to change their minds after further play - I mean, your read on me seems to have changed some, why shouldn't my read on you and Empking have changed based on play Day 2?

Cause I caught you lying and you go 180 and can't pinpoint what has made me scummy all of sudden and what emp did to seem so pro town

See, Hop, you

clearly

knew I had already addressed the "lie", so what pro-town motivation would you have for saying I hadn't? /sarcasm

Worth repeating. You knew what I was talking about it, quoting another place where I restated my response just shows that you're trying to twist my words.

I understand why Empking got less active. Arguing with you is like banging my head against a wall.

no i did not KNOW what you were talking about, how the hell can you speak for me anyway.

If I knew what you were talking about I would not be here saying you never addressed the lie. I still don't believe that timeline response is acurate because timeline has nothing to do with the fact that you DENIED agreeing with me

I don't care what timeline you use, the fact is you agreed with me twice and saying you didn't is a BOLDFACE LIE

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yeah scum (emp) arguing with town(me) is going to be like banging head against the wall cause I am like a fucking shark who smells blood. empking is obvuously scum and I am convinced you are too.

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and I will repeat myself

IN MAFIA YOU DO NOT LYNCH THE PERSON WHO IS CLEARED SO UN VOTE NOW IF YOU ARE TOWN

failure to unvote is admission of guilt IMO

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BV hasn't participated in this game thread since page 23, that was 7 whole days ago and before all of this information has come out so no I can't count him cause I don't know what he would do if he saw the evidence that is clearing me.

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and for the record, in a game of 12 the possibily of a 3 person mafia and a SK or something is totally possible because a balanced mafia game is 1 scum for every 3 to 4 people, at least that was what I was taught by papa zito way back in the day

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* and what seems to be the norm on this site, most normal games I have just looked over with 9 have 3 mafia, looking for 12 person games tomorrow.

(yes I know, other games are not games run by this mod, but there is such think as mod wanting to not disrupt the balance of the game, even in a bastard mod game, if there were more than 4 in this setup it would be unbalanced.)

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[face_palm] @ smarg's "the wiki"

Disregard the fact that there's only one "the wiki" to be talked of here, any definitions not found in our wiki might as well be made up be oneself.


Do I really need to spell out that I have role-related privvy info that more or less confirms Hop's commuter claim? Nobody can take a hint in this town?

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ever since I claimed commuter Tony has been implying and eventually spilling the beans on his info that I am clear

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and BV, you really need to go back and read up on what you have missed

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I am more clear than anyone else in the game

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god, I am off to bed. I can't believe how bad town is failing right now and all these inactive players are going to fuck this game over.

good night, please be smart and don't mislynch me

[PogoStick]

I am more clear than anyone else in the game

emp has refused to scum hunt until pressured

I don't even think smargaret has made a valid case on anyone, she sheeps my case and than later sheeps emp's

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oh and forgot to add, LIES ABOUT AGREEING WITH ME

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-Not sheeping Empking, I had suspicions of Hop - quite a few - in my very first content post of the game. Empking hadn't even posted at that point. Are you lying again Hop, or just confused?

-So my suspicion of bv310 is not a valid case?

Hop, by your definiton, you are lying too. You are saying you are clear when you are not. You are saying I did not address your claim that I was lying when I did. And now you're saying I'm sheeping and not building valid cases when I am. So if I am scum for lying, so are you and we may as well lynch you. Either that, or you're just scum trying to talk his way out of the noose.

1. I am more cleared than you or anyone else
2. you still have not commented on your lie, saying some bulshit about the timeline and being confused doesn't cut it. There is no way to be confused when you say you did not agree with me when I can find 2 quotes that you did, and you never addressed that aspect of it.
3. you sheeped onto emp's case and onto mine, your vote on BV wasn't a case, it was just a "wow you let us down with that post so I am going to vote you" which isn't a case.


look, so I am not 100% cleared by TM, there is more than

reasonable doubt

to not lynch me today, especially since I have been scum hunting. I can't commute tonight so anyone who wants to do anything to me will be able to tonight.

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@HOMJ- You are NOT clear. Do NOT act like it. For all we know TM could have been roleblocked, he could be your scumpartner trying to save you etc.

Unless TM is cleared and we find out he was not roleblocked you are clear. But TM isn't clear and a roleblock is always an option. You. Are. Not. Clear.

Fine

1. Possible TM could have been role blocked but it's possible he failed cause I commuted last night
2. There is no way right now to clear Tony, but lynching me isn't going to clear Tony either. When I flip town you could easily turn on TM and say he was scum and he was trying to earn town cred, you guys throw out all these crazy scenarios, it's day 2 and this all started when emp went after me on essentially nothing and still hasnt provided a decent case on me.
3. The votes on me are weak

Emp - voted for me for essentially playing like furclow
Smar - agreed with me about emp, said emp made a weak attempt at a case that he doesn't necessarily agree with but he made the attemp and that changed his mind (WHAT?)
bv - comes out of nowhere promised to post a huge WOT and votes me cause ???
Zang - comes out of his hole every 2 days and posts huge walls of text and is the only one who makes sense, except he refuses to comment on my case on emp and why it's wrong

I'm sorry if I'm too aggressive for you guys but when I'm backed into a corner, i defend myself and I call things like I see it. None of you guys have provided good enough reason why I am scum

What I would Like I'd for you each to post 3 or 4 things I have done that are scum tells and explain why they ate scum tells to you

Thanks.

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And can please one person un-vote me, DB is making me nervous cause he seems to be against me again

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Whoever unvotes, it's just a coutesty un-vote til everyone provides a condensed case on me

[PogoStick]

Hop didn't say anything to convince me he wasn't scum overnight, so my vote stays.

why are you ignoring my request?

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@ zang, your case on me.

you never explained how any of them are scum tells, because they aren't if anything they are just "bad player" tells

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Hop didn't say anything to convince me he wasn't scum overnight, so my vote stays.

furthermore, after you comply to my request I want you to point out the specific thing empking said that changed your mind from agreeing with me to thinking I am scum now.

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1.Taking advantage of Furcolows vote for no lynch and saying that no lynch is always scummy. -

No lynch is scummy to me because we as town do not learn anything from a no-lynch. the vote analysis is null because it isn't forcing anyone to make a tough decision like they do when they lynch somebody. there is no flip on a no-lynch so scum and town both benefit from a no-lynch, but scum benefit more because they get a free kill overnight without giving anything with their vote

2.Being reliant on unreliable statistics.

unreliable? the statistics I posted were from this site, games played on this site, games that showed when NL occured day 1, scum won more than 80% of the time. This isn't enough evidence to say "hmm maybe we should not "No lynch" anymore. Scum gets the advantage with a NL on day 1, because there is no vote analysis and late in the game, vote analysis can sometimes win the game for you, if you are town

3.Changing the reasoning behind his vote on me day 2.

sorry I just don't recall this, if you can point it out for me I would appreciate it, but how would me changing my reasoning necessisarily be a scum tell? are you saying town never changes their reasons when voting somebody? because smargaret agreed with me on empking and than later changed to thinking he was town and I was scum, this is sort of the same lines, is it not?

4.Thinking that insulting someone is scummy.

how is this a scum tell? granted I have insulted people and yes it is scummy play because there is no need to insult people, yes I do it so it makes me a hypocrite but scummy play =/= scum

5.Calling himself a VI but thinking it's scummy when someone else does it.

I agree this logic of mine is fucked up and probably wrong, but how is this a scum tell?

6.Thinking that empking is still not scum hunting.

he hasn't posted a real case, he did post a case on me and DB together, but I asked empking to provide links or quotes on the things he has made in his case and he has still ignored my request. here I will even point out my request for you - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2651167 now read from there and locate where emp has done so, I am pretty sure you will find he won't. Why would he not provide information to support his claims? I am more than willing to post links to point out scummy behavior or lies or whatever, why doesn't emp?

[PogoStick]

Mod can you add some spaces in this post ^ a space before each number would be appreciated.

Done.

[PogoStick]

What I would Like I'd for you each to post 3 or 4 things I have done that are scum tells and explain why they ate scum tells to you

Thanks.

[PogoStick]

and that should say ARE scum tells

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The JUST didn't clarify anything for me. -

well guess we just going to disagree on this one

I believe Smargaret about the 180 and lie because she's my most town read.

so somebody who hasn't really scum hunted this game is your most town read?

Did you even check google? It's one of the first few results. 

why would I?, but to please you I just did. Google "commuter" and I get nothing. Google "Mafia commuter" and mafia scum is mentioned as the 2nd result, number 1 is some mafia II website that doesn't mention commuter role. I Google "mafiascum commuter" and I get the first result as being the wiki for this site. so not sure what she googled but the 3 most obvious choices I could think of to google, didn't lead me to that other wiki

And if you don't use the wiki, how are you supposed to know what it is?

did I ever say I never use the wiki? cause I am pretty sure I said this

when you look up something on "the wiki" do you use the mafiascum wiki? or do you use another one?

I use mafiascum wiki because that is where I am playing.

But assuming you're town, couldn't TM be scum or an SK trying to get himself confirmed as town by buddying with you?

it is very possible, yes this is the only thing that scares me but because he is telling the truth about me, I am hoping he isn't scum

Ok, but you didn't look up what a bastard game is when you saw it in the rules?

honestly no I didn't

How was she supposed to know that it wasn't the mafiascum wiki?

because it didn't say mafiascum anywhere on that site

So you do know what a bastard game is now?

yeah I decided to look it up on the mafiascum wiki

And I know what the mod said. That's why I didn't post that when I first saw your claim.

ok

I am sorry, emp has not done a single thing to help the town catch scum and you guys follow him

I'm not following emp. I've known that you are scum since day 1.

how could you possibly know anything on day 1? just because I played like a VI? well so did furclow and we see how that worked out.

Using that logic, scum could win just by saying that they cleared eachother.

fair enough, I guess I am not as clear as I thought I was even though I still think I am pretty clear, shocker I am in the minority

But you did say what his role is. You said that someone tried to kill you last night when you commuted.

no actually this is what I said

Omg you were gonna kill me

because my role PM said kill or kidnap, clealy we already had one kill and kidnap so I naturally assumed he was Vig, considering everyone secretly and not so secretly wanted the vig to take me out. we still don't know what role TM is but I learned later from the MOD that when I commute all actions failed so he could be something else all together.

Unvote
Vote: HopOnMyJoystick

So? You still have just as much of a chance of being scum.

in your mind I guess you have a point

I'm pretty sure I have or at least the major points of it.

I guess I will have to wade through your WOTs to see if you have

What I would Like I'd for you each to post 3 or 4 things I have done that are scum tells and explain why they ate scum tells to you

I'm also adding that he claimed commuter which is a safe claim for scum

well if you look at my past games you can see that I have been scum twice, once I fake claimed nothing and the other I faked claimed watcher, in a game with 2 watchers. this is gonna be a bit of WIFOM but when I am scum, I typically would clam something less likely to be lynched like a cop, something as meaningless as a commuter I would never claim but I guess giving this setup, it is possible scum could fake claim it. I know I keep saying it because it is true and yes I hope sometime soon somebody believes me but I am town, I am trying to help catch scum

[PogoStick]

The claim, your reaction to being at L-1, your behavior day 1 as described in my catch-up post (pretty sure there are 3-4 things in there), and your continual harping on about the "lies" and the "180" after I've responded to them/proven that they aren't. And that's just what comes to mind without slogging through your back and forth with Empking - oh, let's add suspicion of everyone to the list to, since now you think I'm scum too.

you missed the point, I was asking you to post your case as to why you thought I was scum to vote for me. everything you have posted happened AFTER you put me at L-1 but let's discuss what you posted.

My claim - is a scum tell how?

my reaction to being L-1 is a scum tell how? I am town trying to defend myself which is a typical response for town

To me the reason you gave for your switching from me to him was very weak, you even said emp's case was "weak and late, but is still a case" however I made a case against emp that was not weak and not late that you ignored completely.

how is suspicion of everyone a scumtell?

the fact is you have not posted a 'CASE" on me BEFORE you put me at L-1 and to use your own words.

These aren't firm definitions, there is some variation based on playerstyle, but as a general rule,

I consider a case to be more detailed than an accusation and to have the intention of pushing towards a lynch,

if not today then tomorrow unless the response is satisfactory. An accusation is more likely to have a shorter justification, maybe a one-liner, that the goal is reaction-fishing rather than lynching.

It's sort of like the difference between a vote and an FOS/IGMEOY, I guess. I'm not making much sense right now.

and one other thing bothers me, this is something you said

You're both being naughty boys for not posting cases; just Empking is being slightly less anti-town because I think he genuinely believes you to be scum and that posting a case on someone else would hurt the town.

you don't think I genuinely believe emp is scum?

[PogoStick]

why would I?, but to please you I just did. Google "commuter" and I get nothing. Google "Mafia commuter" and mafia scum is mentioned as the 2nd result, number 1 is some mafia II website that doesn't mention commuter role. I Google "mafiascum commuter" and I get the first result as being the wiki for this site. so not sure what she googled but the 3 most obvious choices I could think of to google, didn't lead me to that other wiki

Or you could google "commuter mafia wiki" which is what smar said she googled

FYI- The mafia page she linked is one of the first few results (that aren't unrelated) you get.

funny I just did that and guess what?

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff3 ... /mscum.jpg

[PogoStick]

@ BV - smar said AtE is a scum tell, what do you think about this?

oh wait, here I will point it out to you, this was taken from bv in a mafia discussion thread about scum tells

Those are just buzzwords people like to throw around to seem smart, in my experience. I don't see how AtE is more likely to come from scum than town.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2625413

while we are talking about aTe, let's go around mafiascum and see what we come up in the maifa discussion forum shall we

Appeal to emotion usually signifies that the person has a "gut feeling" and not an actual reason to vote someone out.

I'd say it's not a scumtell at all

unless it's the only thing used and it's used repeatedly.

You know that an acronym is poorly understood across the site when even site veterans don't know what it means.
AtE is Appeal to Emotion.

Appeal to Emotion is not a universal tell one way or another. It is certainly NOT a "noobtell," as I know countless veterans who use it from time to time. Heck, I've started wearing my emotions on my sleeve at times, and I'd hardly call myself a noob. Emotion is used to convey the urgency or adamancy of what you're saying. As such, it MUST be taken contextually. There's really not much more to say on the topic. Take it case by case and look at all the circumstances regarding somebody's profane-laced tirade or appeal to hugs and rainbows and butterfly kisses.

It's anti-town and scummy...

...

But not a scum tell

. It's not an indication of alignment, rather, an indication of how emotionally fit that player is to be in the game. True, I have seen it used more often by town players, but said players also used it when scum. Null and void, really.

and I have not really OMGUS'd anyone because I have found reasons to vote each person I have voted for, even if people disagree the reasons were valid and were not "oh my god you voted me so I must vote you" which is what I think of OMGUS is

[PogoStick]

no I am working on your more recent post now, I posted that before your last post

[PogoStick]

1. Everything I mentioned happened since you went to L-1 because I don't feel like wading through your posts with Empking right now and you've committed 3-4 scumtells since then that surprise surprise, happen to be fresher in my memory. Also, see my first content post of the game. There's plenty of pre-L-1 scumtells on you there.

so you NEVER made a case for voting me and you put me at L-1? seems very opportunistic if you ask me. lazyness is anti-town

2. Your claim is not a scumtell, it is scummy. As Zang said, it is a safe thing for scum to claim, and the only (possibly) verifiable part of it doesn't confirm your alignment.

ok your lazyness and lying are worse than my claim which you say is scummy but i say is the truth

3. Your reaction to being at L-1 is a scumtell because of the delay in claiming, the sudden insistence that "I am clear!" and all the AtE and OMGUS since then (you don't consider them scumtells, I do, deal with it).

I have been told on this site that you wait to be asked before claiming, so I waited until I was asked and I claimed.

4. Which post contains your case against emp? All I saw was a bunch of "You're scum!" "No, you're scum!" "No, you are!"

here it is http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2643035

5. Suspicion of everyone is a scumtell because it is leaving your options open - you can see how everyone else reacts before committing.

but I have provided reasons why they did something to make me suspicious. I don't know who scum yet

6. So wait, I can't decide you're scum once you're at L-2? Now, that's not the case because I'd already said I was null-leaning-scum on you, but it's perfectly reasonable for someone's read to change over the course of the day.

you agreed with me TWICE on the stuff I was saying about emp, and the information you provided about why you changed your view just doesn't make any sense. I had provided a STRONG case and he provided a WEAK (your words) case

7. No, I don't think you genuinely believe emp is scum because I think YOU are scum.

than stop being lazy and make a case on what has gotten you to think I am scum because you were on my side agreeing with me and nothing I posted since you flopped to emp's side in my opinion did anything to warrant that change.

EBWOP: Hop, the mafiascum link didn't look relevant. I was skimming google results, the second link had the word "commuter" in it, the first one didn't.

REALLY? the mafia scum link that took you to the list of ALL ROLES ON MAFIA SCUM wasn't relevant? especially since OMG we are playing on mafia scum

[PogoStick]

damn bold fail on a few of those

[PogoStick]

Hop: Please differentiate your statements from mine.

apologize, had problem with the quotes

[PogoStick]

I can't believe that Hop decided to quote Zerofang and Mastin to prove his point and then left Glork to the middle.

Hop:
1. Your case was amost completely untruths (That's what I meant by "Bull", "Quotes please" and "Evidence Plerase".
2. You tell me how to prove the (truthful) statement "despite find the same players scummy, early D2 DB and Hop refused to vote for the same player" and then I'll prove my arguments.

why don't you ask DB, because I voted for everyone I found scummy

I voted for you, zang, smar, SV, and even BV so I had no problem voting for people. I believe your assessment on DB is probably the most accurate, I think he is teh one trying to not seem so suspicious, cause it's clear that I have no problems with my actions or how it makes me look. I am being accused of looking scummy and I don't give a fuck cause I know I am town.

If I remember correctly somebody told me scum doesn't like to draw attention to themselves and they definitly care about how they appear, so using that I am either the worst scum in the history of mafia or I AM NOT SCUM.

All I am asking for is give me one more day because there is more than enough reasonable doubt that I am not scum.

Zang's case on me has merit but none of it are scum tells

Smarg refuses to make a case on me because she is too lazy to go back, yet she puts me at L-1 but if I recally she was calling you out emp for not making a case, so seems smarg is being a bit hypocritical also

you made a case on me a while back but sorry to say most of your case just didn't make sense. I honestly didn't realize scum could day talk, I was distancing from town when mafia normally distance from each other. If i was scum I would most likely be defending furclow til the end but I didn't,

this just goes back to the point I am trying to make, you guys all suspect me of being scum but you can't find any REAL examples of tru scum tells, plus with the information TM has provided it shoudl be enough to try and find somebody else to lynch, somebody who has had real scum slips.

I actually would be more willing to lynch Smar because I have busted her on actual lies and her reasons for them have not been convincing enough, and like I said if you are pro-town there is no reason to lie.

[PogoStick]

oh and I don't know who they are, I just pulled random quotes from that thread, there are way more people who also say AtE isn't a scum tell.

[PogoStick]

here are some things I don't like about smargaret

Okay, so my first question: If we have a vig, WHY ARE HOP AND SV STILL ALIVE?

That is why we have a sk,

not a vig, because VIs/annoying PRs are vigbait and any decent vig knows this.

Setup speculation as his 2nd post of the game is very odd considering this statement

A quick word about setup speculation: It's not inherently bad or scummy.

There are times when it can be quite useful to town, such as when trying to figure out who's fakeclaiming in a massclaim scenario, or when trying to get a slow game started up. While I think it's worth considering sk/vig, we shouldn't get too distracted that we forego scumhunting.

she later doesn't think we should no be distracted of a sk/vig cause it would distract from scum hunting but she posts the concept of it first.

Agrees with what i am saying about emp - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p2639336

even accuses emp of tunneling -

Empking, how is that philosophy not tunneling? There is at least one other scum out there.

smarg says this

3. Empking needs to post a case on at least one other player. There are three scum out there, you have four scumreads, and you've revealed who they are - saying why you think so for one of them isn't going to take too much time and will give us all something new to discuss. I'm sorry, but I just got out of a game where lack of discussion led to an easy mafia victory, and I'm kicking myself over it.

but hasn't posted a single case yet herself, especially she says lack of discussion led to an east mafia victory, and she is refusing to provide a scum case on me because she is too lazy, this is hypocritical of her

Zang has some good points about Hop, and I need to reread him (yuck), but I want to ask something first -
.

yet she never does a re-read on me

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2650280

this is where I really feel like smarg is trying to protect zang for some reason and this quote in particiular

If this is the case, why should we keep you around? It's pretty clear that this is Zang's playstyle, and if you are too lazy to respond to his points, how are you any better than Empking refusing to build cases? At least Empking has a reason for denying the town information, even if it's not one I agree with.

1. I have not refused to build a case
2. withholding information from town is not helping town and saying it is okay is also not pro-town

and than all of the other posts is when she starts siding with empking, personally I think this is when she and her scum buddies realize that they can get me lynched so she starts defending emp (again this is just my own speculation)

and on top of all this she has lied I believe 3 times in this game which has no town motivation to lie.

[PogoStick]

I don't give a fuck how I look is what I mean, I know town and I can rationally explain my actions and in not afraid of the pressure on me

I want people to unvote cause I don't think a mislynch with 3 dead townies is the way to help town win

I actualyy already voted her once, I can do it again but what's the point?

Nobody else seems to care she lies and has admitted she is to lazy to make a case on me, or explain with logic what happened overnight that one night that had her voting for emp to putting me at L-1

Those behaviors are suspicious yet everyone is taking get side it seems

I personally think The reason nobody is listening to me is because you all think I'm a VI, because the points I pointed out, if done by someone with more credibility , you would be more willing to listen

I basically have nothing to gain by lying, I am at L-1 and can be lynched any tine, I'm just trying to get people to stop and discuss these other actions for a bit and determine if it's something to look into

I asked people to make a case

1. Smar is too lazy
2. Zang's is decent but not really scum tells
3. Emp won't til I answer why DB and I have not voted the same, like I can read DB's mind (cause I have proven I'm not afraid to vote my suspicions) And DB and I ARE voting the same player now so this point is invalid
4. Bv is not here again, checks in after 7 days, at the least until he reads up he should unvote cause he has no clue what is going on in this game

Are these 4 votes on me town motivated? Doesn't seem like it to me

[PogoStick]

Top line should be I know I'm town

[PogoStick]

But we are voting the same person
I can't tell you why DB isn't voting for people but I have voted all my suspicions. I have voted for like 5 people this day phase
Does he even find the same people scummy that I do?
You still are not posting your case on me

Again, bull is such a crap response to anything

[PogoStick]

One more thing, this game is to catch scum so I vote people I suspect is scum because votes put pressure on people to get them to talk, how is this anti-town behavior?

[PogoStick]

It's directed at whoever said my accusing everyone is scummy

I don't remember who said it

[PogoStick]

@ emp, when i flip town, who will be your suspects for scum and why

[PogoStick]

sadly you are mistaken

but okay in your mind, use hypothetical

[PogoStick]

I am still waiting for you to post your case on me like i have asked already

[PogoStick]

That isn't a case on me and you say we are scum like you know for a fact, and you don't
Also how would scum benefit by being so obvious on day 2, why would db not buss the shit of me to earn town cred?

[PogoStick]

yay way to mislynch.

nice job mafia.

peace out

[PogoStick]

and primate, do you know what commuter is? when you commute you are unkillable, that is the nature of the role.

[PogoStick]

and yes I will say it again, anyone who was town on my wagon are morons, i won't even say it is because you voted for me but the play of all 5 of you were horrendous this game, you have done nothing to scum hunt and now town winning is in your hands? *headdesk*

[PogoStick]

I can't believe that Hop decided to quote Zerofang and Mastin to prove his point and then left Glork to the middle.

Hop:
1. Your case was amost completely untruths (That's what I meant by "Bull", "Quotes please" and "Evidence Plerase".

2. You tell me how to prove the (truthful) statement "despite find the same players scummy, early D2 DB and Hop refused to vote for the same player" and then I'll prove my arguments.

pretty sure this is where you said you would not make a case til it was proven

[PogoStick]

Yep, it's right there in bold

Prove this and I'll prove that

[PogoStick]

The town on Hop's wagon are bums.

You were lying to protect me

That was sarcasm btw, I agree town on my wagon should probably just quit playing

No fucking way scum is claiming commuter
Tomorrow primate better explain his hammer with no case and while I was still waiting for people to post their cases on me

He denied town info from BV and emp

[PogoStick]

Well I assumed vig cause my pm only said immune from kills/kidnappings

Since this my last game on site, it was fun while it lasted

Thanks mod

Peace out