Mini 1082 (Guns and Ropes: Midland): An Unfaithful Ending.

[Riceballtail]

No, I totally take fault for the mistake of not sending the action in. It's not yours at all SSBF, as you had stated as such in the rules. Some scum QTs change their mind far too often to be able to really tell who is the actual NK.

[LimMePls]

That being said, it would have been interesting for one of {pappums rat, DemonHybrid} to decide whenever or not the SK or Mafia would have won.

I wanted to avoid this at all costs. I knew if we lynched DH that this would be the case, that's why I worked so hard for the Lat lynch at the end. It was the only way to guarantee us a win.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Just want to post that I have flavor up at the lynch scene, but it is currently in progress and far from finish. Due to me having a lot of homework to worry about and that I'm pretty worried about a few of my grades, it may take awhile before it is totally finished, but rest assure that progress will be made daily. I'll keep you updated on the flavor until it is completely finished up.

[Lateralus22]

Am I the only one reading mod posts? It was mod confirmed that lynching ANYONE or no one as long as it wasn't scum on that day would have been a mafia win.

[Hoopla]

Yeah, I'm curious to know what the mini normal reviews had to say about the setup...

To be honest, I think this was one of the more balanced set-ups within Little Italy (at least under the 12 player umbrella) in a while. When you consider the winrate in 2:1:9 games;

Mafia wins:

7 (including this game)

Town wins:

20

SK wins:

5

...it's reasonable to believe town have a decent chance of winning. In many of these set-ups town's power has been somewhat limited, though not all without an investigation role, which seems to be the primary concern. If you look at how this game played out, the town did play quite poorly, mislynching 3 days in a row, which is enough to lose in most 3:9 games - granted they might have a bit more info from a PR, but this lack of information is boosted by extra mislynch chances and the potential of scum being killed at night.

The governor role was a strange choice. Most of the reviewers didn't want it in or didn't see the point in the role, because it had almost no town benefit outside of LYLO. It was essentially a Named Townie really, and I didn't expect it to have much effect on the game at all, which was why it was allowed. You'll have to talk to SSBF if you want a deeper reasoning on why he wanted to use the role.

But really, of all the set-ups you want to draw as town in 12 player games, 2:1:9 by far offers you the best chance, even in games light on powerroles. I'm kind of confused why people think this game was unbalanced - all parties had a fair chance of winning.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah, well, it was just that. We basically had a doctor vs a Serial Killer that had a night protect and a 2 man mafia team with a jailkeeper. By numbers, sure, it would have looked balanced, but Tracker/1-shot Gov/Doctor vs Mafia Goon/Keeper and SK 1-shot Bulletproof would have made a lot more sense. Rob was on top of his protection game; the tracker even wouldn't have done much good, but without the investigation role, this ended up being one of the most tiring and disheartening games that I've played in a long time. There was just such a lack of information that it really fucked with my head; none of that "Lat must be the last mafia" stuff was fake. It was just a severe mindfuck.

Overall, it was a good game, but just severely draining on my energy, and some of that energy would have been kept if we had even the slightest bit of information on the table.

[MacavityLock]

Yeah, I'm thinking even just swap out the Gov for any sort of Investigative, and I would have been happy with the setup. Other than that, it was more the way it played out, with basically no kills leading to no information/negative information.

[Hoopla]

I think the game being so taxing is more of a problem with the players themselves than the set-up. I've played/ran set-ups with high ratios of vanilla/lack of PR's and they've worked just fine, and I dare say, have been quite fun. Not all set-ups are going to have a role from each of the Investigation/Blocking/Protecting/Killing field - I think it's better that you are kept guessing, so you don't become dependent on PR information. I kind of don't know what you're arguing any more, if you're saying that a Tracker wouldn't have even done much good? Are you upset because you still feel this was unbalanced or that your expectations weren't met? If it's the latter, then I'd suggest recalibrating your expectations based on this experience.

[DemonHybrid]

Not even purely unbalanced. PRs are unbalanced, but like you said, the numbers are not. It was just the wrong mix of roles to give town in a situation like this, I guess, is the best way I can put it.

It still was a good game after all was said and done. It really was much closer than we think it was, had we mislynched one less person, I think we would have been alright.

[Hoopla]

Not even purely unbalanced. PRs are unbalanced, but like you said, the numbers are not. It was just the wrong mix of roles to give town in a situation like this, I guess, is the best way I can put it.

I still don't understand your concern. That last sentence doesn't make sense...

[DemonHybrid]

Not even purely unbalanced. PRs are unbalanced, but like you said, the numbers are not. It was just the wrong mix of roles to give town in a situation like this, I guess, is the best way I can put it.

I still don't understand your concern. That last sentence doesn't make sense...

It's hard to explain. I just feel like the mix of roles that were given to town (1-shot governor and doctor) weren't quite ideal in a 3 way setup like this. Like you said about the governor; why he was included is beyond me, and that slot could have been given a weak investigative role or something, for example, like a tracker (even macho or otherwise) or a gunsmith (giving only 1/2 of the mafia a gun as well and the SK/other half of the mafia a different kill method). Overall, it's like the town only had a doctor and something more inventive or useful could have been in place of the governor.

Maybe I'm just not used to near totally vanilla setups, or maybe I'm just tired. It's 5 AM here.

Regardless, it's not TOTALLY unbalanced; from a PR perspective, it is, but from a number crunching perspective, it's not. I understand where you're coming from.

[Hoopla]

Sure, but towns already have a significant advantage in 2:1:9 set-ups. You could give the town no power-roles and debate it still being balanced. To me it still sounds like your expectations of what you normally see in a set-up has been let down, rather than the game suffering from any balance concerns. In which case, that comes down purely to players and mods styles/beliefs, and I'd recommend seeking out mods who you trust if it really is an issue or readjusting your expectations.

[DemonHybrid]

Basically, even IF the investigative role did no good, some of the extra information would have been easy on the ears and the mind. I know not all games have roles from each field, but it would have helped in a 3-way setup.

Preview edit: I mean, I've played in games before that broke the norm of most games by putting in an obscure role and leaving out a key one, but none of them have been a 3-way setup. Maybe that's just me, then. I don't know.

[DemonHybrid]

I trust you and understand what you're saying; all of these are still legitimate inquiries, however. I still have a lot to learn about mafia, so this is a good opportunity. I only started in April. (I played games offsite before coming to MS)

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Hoopla: If you're wondering why I put in the governor role, you can look at my mod commentary that has my night actions/set-up/other pre-game mod stuffs in it after I ended the game.

@DemonHybrid: I understand your concern, but you might want to look at #1574 for reasons why adding an investigative role like a tracker might not have been a good idea in this set-up. I could argue that it could have made the town more overpowered then even I would want it.

Also want to inform that I have updated the end game flavor scene to include how Lateralus22 died. Homework is taking up a lot of my time, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get to flavor tomorrow, although I will try. It will certainly be finished on Friday, thought, since I have some times during the weekends.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Sorry for double posting, but I'd like to inform everyone that flavor has been completed for those who wanted to see the thing in full form. Yeah I lied, but I just wanted to get it done so I wouldn't have to worry about it later on.

I've been meaning to say this for awhile, but I'd like to thank all the replacements in the game. The fact that it was so speedy makes me especially grateful as we never went long without a full cast, which at least didn't stall the game more then it already did. Also, with the exception of the flakers (Rabies and moose200x if I remember correctly), everyone deserves thanks for playing. While not everyone may have shown themselves to be the master of Mafia, everyone who didn't flake tired very hard to play the game and I really did enjoy the player list, with a lot of great established players and some decent newbies as well. It was fun modding the game and seeing how the game played out from a mod's perspective, even if it was at times frustrating. If I ever come back to Mafia actively, I have some neat ideas that you might like, although I won't spoil them quite yet.

Sadly, me coming back to Mafia is not anytime in the near future. The problem is that ever since school started up again, I have been trying to get off the Internet and all attempts failed, which said addiction has taken a toll on my school grades and my motivation in real life. As much as I would like to stay here and continue, I simply do not have the sufficient time to do Mafia activity and I can't afford another three months of dedication toward modding a game.

Because of this, today, tomorrow, and maybe Saturday will be the last days when I'll be able to look over this game. After either tomorrow or Saturday, I will have to leave the site for a prolonged period of time to focus on more important things like school. So if you have any questions regarding this game and suggestions on how I can improve on modding if I ever come back,

ask now

, otherwise, I won't be able to answer. I'll inform you when I leave the site, but rest assure that I'm going to miss this site.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: You thought I did well this game. While I'm glad to hear this, what stands out to you that makes you think this? I want to use this to improve my play in future games.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, and knowing why Riceballtail killed me would help.

[Riceballtail]

Oh, and knowing why Riceballtail killed me would help.

Because I know you know how to read me as scum. T_T

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Mod: You thought I did well this game. While I'm glad to hear this, what stands out to you that makes you think this? I want to use this to improve my play in future games.

First off, you were the most serious imminent threat to the town. By constantly attacking LynchMePls and Engima, you put yourself wide open as a threat to both alignments, which was bound to get you NK later on anyway if not on that night. Another thing that stand out to me was how you presented your points. As much as I like long posts, you didn't constantly flounder around as the town mostly did and you were concise, yet clear in your message (There were considerable voting moving, but I could tell that you may have switched back to LynchMePls tomorrow or Enigma). Scums want people who can be easily swayed to their sides, not someone who can turn the table on them like you probably would have, had you lived another day or two. Hopefully this helps and you can always look back at this game for things you feel you can improve on

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I promise this will be the last time I double post in this thread.

Unless I get a lot of questions to answer that indicates that I should stay around for tomorrow, I will have to leave the site today. I'd much rather stop being addicted now then later.

If this is the last post I make, I'll say this:

Thanks everyone for such a great experience on Mafiascum and I will never forget the memories of this site. I've truly learned a lot about myself in the past ten and a half months I've been in here.

[Lateralus22]

What did you learn?

/curious

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

What did you learn?

/curious

Glad you asked that. The first thing I learned was that modding is not easy at all. I really did think this was going to be a breeze without much issues standing by it, but I then realized that commitments are not easy to make and if you want your game to be solid, you must put forth effort towards modding and be aware of potential consequences of screwing up. I was pretty amazed at myself that I didn't drop flavor from vote counts, but I wanted to give players something entertaining to read during vote counts so they could be less likely to skim it.

Another thing I learned is that for a truly balanced set-up, you can't just throw in the set-up and expect it to work. When making my set-up, the only thing I was concerned about was that it had a governor, SK, and twelve players. I was lucky that it was somewhat balanced thanks to great reviewers. Now that this game has unfolded, I will pay attention to the set-up more before sending it off to reviews.

The most important thing, however, is that this game has convinced me to broaden into what careers I want to take. Originally, I cared about becoming a video game designer and nothing more, but this game has been a great opportunity for me to experiment with a different style of writing and see how far I can take my vocabulary in. As such, I may look into a career in English-related stuffs if being a video game designer doesn't work out for me. And because Mafia is such a fantastic forum game to play, if I ever become motivated enough, I may make a book with Mafia elements in it and see how that goes, although that won't be for a long time.

But that's just for this game.

As for what I've learned about myself period that Mafia has influenced, for one thing, it gave me a huge desire to become more socially active and see what is beyond the city of where I live and the Internet in general. It would be great to go on a trip around the world seeing different cultures and how people live. With me leaving Mafia soon, I just may start making progress toward it (With of course, the only income source will be from me).

Mafia also made me a considerably better debater then I was back in late 2008 - February, 2010. As a former fanboy of Nintendo, I used to declare almost everyone who didn't like Nintendo to be haters and used my fanboyism as a justification, which I realized will flat-out not work there and especially not when discussing more important issues in the world. Now I actually form real arguments and I like to try to aim for a as non-bias of an opinion as possible and Mafia encourages good debating skills. I used to be a Village Idiot for the first several months here on this site, my play has since improved a lot. Now I enjoy debating with other people on real life issues and am ready to shake my image of "that silent person who sits on the computer all day."

I also feel that my personality has changed for the better. I used to be a somewhat selfish, ignorant person who wouldn't accept people's opinion unless they agreed with me, but both traits have since gone away. I realized that if you want to win as a townie/scum, you have to work together to fix the issue and you can't do it all alone.

Well, it's time for me to go. The past ten and a half months have been amazing for me (At least on Mafiascum) and I've made memories I've never thought I would. Sadly, all good things don't last forever and it's been hard dropping this activity. This has truly been the very best forum I've ever went to.

Goodbye, old friends.

[Papa Zito]

fin.