Mini 1084: The New Jersey Shore (Game Over)

[Internet Stranger]

What happened to CC?

[themanhimself]

Valid question.

[Guderian]

hanzo, what defense do you have against those points?

the fact you didn't respond much at all doesn't bode well for you. I currently see guthrie as the scum driven alternate wagon to hanzo.

unvote

vote: Hanzo_5

NOTE: L-1.

I was thinking the same thing internet. She/he shows up, makes a case and is gone. I would like to hear her opinion of where this has gone.

[Jase]

chkflip: Stop lurking and take some stances on what's happening. Do it now!
Just checking in before I have to leave. More tonight.

- I was busy with college work, sorry. Not trying to lurk. Hanzo's defense was a null tell for me, so until more develops from that, my vote stays.
- None of the other players have really stood out; something more developed when I get some more solid reads.

To summarize:

"Everyone is null, I have nothing to say. Please pay me no mind."

That's my interpretation at any rate.

Vote: chkflip

There is something you can say about this game. I don't care what your opinion is. You can't just jump in and say "Oh there's nothing worth talking about" and expect everything to get better. That's even worse than lurking. I hereby demand that you say words, preferably about things.

[Llamarble]

Our deadline is December 6th!
The more discussion we get, the better we will be positioned going into day 2, so we should use most of our time.
Basically nobody hammer.
Also I don't buy this wagon.

[Jase]

EBWOP:
Nobody frigging hammer. This day it to young to die. [Preview edit: Basically what llamarble said]

While I'm on the topic of lurkers. Guy whos name begins with "x" and carrot are both lurking. I'm especially suspicious because discussion is pretty healthy right now. There's no good reason to be silent. Get in here and post.

LLamarble: What wagon is that in particular that you don't buy?

[Guthrie]

EBWOP:

Nobody frigging hammer.

This day it to young to die. [Preview edit: Basically what llamarble said]

While I'm on the topic of lurkers. Guy whos name begins with "x" and carrot are both lurking. I'm especially suspicious because discussion is pretty healthy right now. There's no good reason to be silent. Get in here and post.

LLamarble: What wagon is that in particular that you don't buy?

Sounds like trying to hard to look town.

Fos

I dp buy the hanzo wagon tough. He is being very evasive.

@hanzo : i already answered. i said i don'get your point (cause it is false and doesn't make sense). isn't that a n answer ffs??i would hammer you if i could.

[Llamarble]

Explanation of why I don't buy the Hanzo wagon and continued case against TMH:

TMH no longer falls into the "trying to look like a scumhunter without making waves" category.
I think this is deliberate on his part; he decided that it would look scummier to get off the Hanzo wagon after espousing its virtues than to keep pushing it.
Hanzo's flailing/roleclaim in particular have made it look like the wagon on Hanzo might succeed, doubling the scum-incentive to continue.

His giant "reasons Hanzo is scum" post includes no mention of Carrot's initial "spreading votes around" accusation.
He previously called that allegation very solid and good logic on two separate occasions, so it is inconsistent that he didn't even mention it.
Scum are inconsistent because they forget why they believe the things they pretend to believe in.

He has been strawmanning my accusations against him by focusing on the rolefishing aspect and referring back to it several times to make it sound like he has defended the case against him successfully.
Also, I'm still not convinced he wasn't rolefishing with that early post.
You don't have to say "Herp derp X are you the Y?" to rolefish.
You just have to prompt discussion that scum can potentially glean PR tells from.
I believe early discussion of a post restriction (which you called a "role restriction," further making a PR discussing response likely) has that potential.
So does your "Maybe carrot was preparing a role-claim but gave up" post, as scum could use a response from Carrot to guess at his role.

Now on to the points against Hanzo:

Much of it can be boiled down to overreacting/throwing accusations around when accused.
I think "why are you voting me with this BS case OMGUS" is not a scumtell.
Town are indignant about being wrongfully accused.

I pick up indignant newb townie flailing vibes rather than desperate scum flailing vibes from Hanzo.
The "I'm ashamed for flailing, let me try to be a little clearer" post felt genuine.
When I read over the two defense posts, they seemed to be consistent with each other despite the first being more poorly worded.
If you can show specific examples where he said "my reasoning was this" and then later said "actually my reasoning was this"
I'll agree you've found something really suspicion worthy.

An early roleclaim is poor play for either alignment.
TMH's statement that he's "trying to get his claim in early before everybody else does" doesn't make sense, particularly since he didn't claim a PR.
It seems much more likely that Hanzo simply didn't realize claiming early was anti-town until it was explained to him, and his responses have been consistent with that.

A few of the points are decent.

He does go out of the way to say he's town several times.
Particularly the "ooh, when I'm mafia maybe I'll try that" post is scummy.
The "pls lynch me" bit seems scummy because players can be expected to know that the day shouldn't end within the first week so their request won't be acted on.

Overall I think the case against him is substantially overstated though.

[Hanzo_5]

Guderian, My defense was that those quotes were lifted out of context. Twice now you have missed my reasoning and asked for it. Are you not reading my posts?

Themanhimself, I'm not gonna jump all over someone for resisting to answer a question they feel makes no sense. And if what you assume is true, he's hanging himself by giving me more examples of him being evasive. What will your defense be if your push for the lynch on me succeeds and I flip town?

Guthrie, To be more clear, can you quote one post where I said something that felt evasive to you? After all its only your opinion don't be afraid to add weight to it.

[Chaotic Neutrality]

Guderian, My defense was that those quotes were lifted out of context. Twice now you have missed my reasoning and asked for it. Are you not reading my posts?

Except you failed to provide proper context. You can't declare something null by simply yelling "It's out of context!". Most of those accusations were actually in proper context, and his allegations towards you are perfectly valid.

You could also help by scumhunting, and not just putting up a petty little defense for yourself. And I mean actual scumhunting. OMGUS voting doesn't count.

[Hanzo_5]

Chaotic Neutrality, My votes are not OMGUS, if i weren't being targeted my reasons would be completely valid. Further more i use a lot of qualifiers when I post so there is no misinterpretation of what I mean. If I am quoted with those qualifiers removed than my quote is taken out of context. Point 10 of TMH's is the only one I can agree with, rest is all based off of opinion with evidence presented in a way to reflect that opinion. Shame on you for failing to see that. If i did the same thing it would only needed to be pointed out for you sheep to be breathing down my neck. I'm quite fed up with the lot of you feeding into all the weak accusations against me. At any rate you're all only human/sheep what can I expect. Don't ever answer a question i didn't direct to you, your not answering everyones questions directed at me.

Further more, speaking of failing to provide proper context, why haven't you looked into why Guthrie can't give weight to his "feeling". He's basically telling me to stfu. Why didn't anyone ask why chaotic neutrality basically created the grounds for TMH's defense of role fishing with post #49 (if he did not create them her certainly echoed them). No one has come to my aid in preparing a defense. No one will even give me credit for my defense; acting as if carrotcake brought up a good point. Yeah I thought about what i said, it takes thought to post such a ridiculously brilliant random vote. AND if it caught so much of ur attention how is that vote trying to look invisible? Do you all even think for yourselves... yeah wagoning is cool and all but at least wagon for good reason ffs.

I have scumhunted, when i did the lot of you said it was OMGUS and ignored my reasoning. If i scum hunt now, TMH will say its counter accusation or some other BS.

SHEEP/TOWN, Wake the fuck up, and see that your being played. I think my martyrdom is the only thing that can save this town from itself and the mafia.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hanzo_5

[Chaotic Neutrality]

Also you are right I'm vanilla townie, I'm claiming it. I'm sure someone will find that scummy.

It's anti-town at best.

Hmm, that's actually a good question hanzo, thought provoking at least. I would say that both you and carrot cake outlined your arguments on observations which are subjective to opinion and that my opinion was more represented by what carrot cake said. Essentially they're both reaches, but carrot is reaching in a direction that I see as more likely and more logical. Both of those posts aside though, I would say your role claim is the scummiest thing in the game so far.

Why is his role claim the scummiest thing int he game so far? Role claiming VT is a newb tell, not a scum tell. It's not a town tell either, but it certainly isn't a scum tell.

Thus far he's only defended himself, and his one "case" was based on someone's case on him which he didn't really defend himself against. On his list of scummy actions are attacking him, refusing a random vote, and "role fishing" which is clearly just trying to find out why I was writing poems. It's very clear he's either inexperienced or illogical, and I have no reason to suspect he's scum. What he's done, I'd expect from a newb VT. What's really interesting is how obvious it is, and how much people jump on it.

Example:

I currently see guthrie as the scum driven alternate wagon to hanzo.

This is bullshit. Guthrie has so far carefully followed everyone else's lead and stayed in the shadows. He's not helping the town, he's not scumhunting, he just plays a sheep. He just exists. Town need to actively scumhunt to win. Scum merely need to survive.

Jumping on newbs or other easy prey is one of the scummiest things you can do in my book. The whole Hanzo wagon needs to be examined closely.

Preview edit: Dude, why did you just self-hammer? Way to be anti-town...

[Hanzo_5]

I self hammered cause i was tired of defending myself from bs. Also see my rant, its my suicide note lol

[themanhimself]

Why would I need a defense if you flip town? I saw what I saw and I brought it all up for everyone. I was just one vote against you out of seven, we all had our choice of who to vote and we think you were the scummiest and that's not a random call, I still think you're scum.

[Chaotic Neutrality]

I think my martyrdom is the only thing that can save this town from itself and the mafia.

VOTE: Hanzo_5

No. This is wrong. Martyrdom is almost never helpful for any alignment. We would have waited on you. We all pretty much agreed not to hammer, and anyone who did would have come under immediate suspicion. The deadline was in a month. I guarantee we could have found a better lynch by then, and we'd have more information too.

Town suicide is terrible. It's not funny. Don't laugh at that. You just blew a month's worth of scum hunting material out the window. I want to have a serious talk with you about this after the game.

TMH: He just self-hammered. He has no reason to lie now.

[themanhimself]

CN, that's a fair point. He wouldn't have any reason to lie now. Doubtless though, a self hammer helps only the mob by decreasing the amount of townies. If you know it's a mislynch then following through on it only hurts the town. I agreed that you should be the lynch as I said before, but that was based on the info I had. Given more time, more info would have arisen leading to a more educated decision, it may still have been a lynch on you, but it would have been an even more justified one or perhaps an entirely different lynch altogether. After all, there were cases to be made against carrot, Guthrie, llamarble, almost all of the active players. By cutting short that discussion you keep us from making an informed decision, regardless of whether it's the right decision.

[themanhimself]

The first people I want to talk about tomorrow are carrot and Guthrie. I'm highly suspicious of both of them right now. Carrot for falling off the face of the earth after stirring the pot and Guthrie because

Guthrie has so far carefully followed everyone else's lead and stayed in the shadows. He's not helping the town, he's not scumhunting, he just plays a sheep. He just exists. Town need to actively scumhunt to win. Scum merely need to survive.

This is stuff is true and it raises questions about his previous play.

[Guderian]

lord I come back to see a self hammer. Like people have stated, this is perhaps the singular most anti town thing you could possibly do. Seriously. Half this town has barely posted. Its going to be very hard getting an reads going into day 2.

I guess I will have to reread guthrie.

[themanhimself]

@ post #108, my post #99 was supposed to quote hanzos post #97 which is why post #99 makes no sense

[Chaotic Neutrality]

I guess I will have to reread guthrie.

You say that as if there's something to re-read.

[Guderian]

well what else is there to do.

We have 5 pages of barking back and forth about hanzo going into day 2.

You have a better suggestion?

[Hanzo_5]

Thats what you get for wagoning the noob! ahahahahaha if only carrot didnt present such a faulty case, i would've never said the things that u thought were scummy.... and i would've had so much pressure. and i would've never self hammered. This game wasnt very fun for me either. maybe next time ya wont let the lurkers lurk. maybe next time ya wont jump on the wagon and push it to L-1 so early. have fun on d2

Mafia, Don't kill themanhimself if he is town. He can easily lead another wagon on chkflip, and guderian. I don't want this sheep town to win

[Scott Brosius]

Vote Count 4

Carrotcake (0)-
Chaotic Neutrality (0)-
chkflip (1)- Jase
Guderian (0)-
Guthrie (2)- Chaotic Neutrality, Rain
Hanzo_5 (7)-themanhimself, Carrotcake, Guthrie, Internet Stranger, chkflip, Guderian, Hanzo_5
Internet Stranger (0)-
Jase (0)-
Llamarble (0)-
Rain (0)-
themanhimself (1)- Llamarble
xsrk (0)-

Not Voting (1)- xsrk


Everyone is playing on the beach, going in the water having a great time. Some of you notice Hanzo_5 run into the ocean, even though he cannot swim! It seems Hanzo_5 has a death wish. His body washes up on shore, with nothing special to note.

Hanzo_5,

Vanilla Townie

has been lynched![/b]

Night 1 begins! Deadline for night actions is November 22 at 11am EST.

[Scott Brosius]

Everyone arises and heads to the local diner for some early grub. However everyone notices the food tastes a little strange. The owner mentions they found a dead body in their deep fryer last night. The group runs to see who it is and it is your friend Chaotic Neutrality, barely recognizable after all the burns.

Chaotic Neutrality,

Vanilla Townie

has been killed![/b]

Vote Count 5

Carrotcake (0)-
chkflip (0)-
Guderian (0)-
Guthrie (0)-
Internet Stranger (0)-
Jase (0)-
Llamarble (0)-
Rain (0)-
themanhimself (0)-
xsrk (0)-

Not Voting (10)- Carrotcake, chkflip, Guderian, Guthrie, Internet Stranger, Jase, Llamarble, Rain, themanhimself, xsrk

Day 2 begins! With 10 alive, it's 6 to a lynch. Deadline is December 13 at 11am EST.

[Internet Stranger]

Vote: Guthrie

Im just contributing to applying pressure on Mr Guthrie here.

FOS: CarrotCake
Is CarrotCake ever coming back? Dont forget, it was she that doomed poor, innocent Hanzo.