Mini 1084: The New Jersey Shore (Game Over)

[Llamarble]

Let's get things moving!

Hanzo voted chaotic neutrality, then moved his vote with nothing happening in between except xsrk announcing a non-vote.
@Hanzo: why did xsrk's non-vote merit your vote?
Did the other vote on xsrk impact your decision?

@Carrot: why do you think Hanz's vote hop was scummy?
Did the other vote on Hanz impact your decision?

I prefer to see the reasoning behind votes if it's not immediately obvious.

My first nonrandom vote goes to:
VOTE: themanhimself

His "why the poetry" post looks driven by scum-goals.
He hypothesizes post restriction and then asks for other ideas.
I don't see anything coming of this other than discussion of special roles, which helps scum.
It also seems strange to me that a special role would be his first guess rather than "he was being witty;"
scum are more likely to have "PRs on the brain" so this strikes me as a scum thought process.
Scum are also likely more likely to emphasize being part of the team with word choice such as "we."
Finally, his post has a strong feel of "trying to look useful without being so."

[Hanzo_5]

Llamarble, i needed to show him how fun voting is.

[Carrotcake]

Your overdeveloped sense of self-importance would have fascinated me, hanzo, if only it didn't painfully remind me of myself.
1.) The first vote against hanzo was quite clearly a joke; it was obviously without weight. Your very thought that it might have had, is very slightly scummy. I will explain further later.

2.) I firmly believe that people open fresh games with two strategies in mind. The first strategy is to hunt scum for the sake of taking giving them a good hanging. The second strategy is to scumhunt for the sake of appearing town. To condense it: one who cares about appearances above all else is scum, but one who cares about results is town. On the early game I tend to organize posts. Does it belong on the "try to appear town box", or the "actually hunting scum box". Granted it isn't a verifiable thing, but I trust it while on the bareness of the early game.

Let's look at hanzo.
a.) He was the last vote on an unvoted person on the initial wave of random votes. What does it tell me? It certainly isn't coincidental. His joke of an explanation felt substantial. As if; although baseless, it was a thought-out descision. What would he think about? Perhaps: he wanted to spread the votes as to not cause ripples upon the pond. He chose to vote a solitary person - to not even begin a wagon- to

be invisible

. (Am I allowed to bold non-votes, mod?). By ¬trying¬ to look town, he becomes scum.

b.) I voted against him not for the vote hop, but his initial vote.

c.) He probably believes no-voting post one is scummy. I disagree. Making it explicitly clear your vote is a joke or you took it by randomize.org is much more scummy imho. It's become tradition to think like this, sadly, and I'm not quite in the mood to brave the currents right now. The hop itself is not scummy, gives how common it is.

d.) Put it all together thought, and then it becomes scummy.
" Look at me, I like to test reactions" over "I need to become perfectly still, i don't want people to think i'm reacting"
It's all appearances. Scummy.

[Carrotcake]

Hanzo, I want to show you how fun lynching is.

[themanhimself]

Aaaaaaaaaannnnnd carrotcake is writing everything as a haiku

[themanhimself]

Whoops, wrote that second post without seeing the first page and the rest of carrotcake's posts, scratch last post.

Llamarble, I was trying to get things moving in the game, much like you were with that post. I was going to say that it seemed like chronic neutrality was probably a townie considering the theme of the game

[Guthrie]

unvote
Vote Hanzo

I had a strange feeling from your first voting post. It looks like you tought too much about it.
And after Carrot's post, i felt it was good to vote you. Anyway, we need a wagon to heat things up, do we not?

[themanhimself]

I'm totally gonna start saying I'm psychic if it ends up being hanzo.

In other news I re-read everything and found a new interpretation of CC's first haiku post. What if he was trying to set himself up for a role claim after seeing chaotic neutrality's post and then realized writing everything as a haiku is way more work than he was looking for so he abandoned before he was too committed? That would certainly have an air of scum about it, immediately looking for a solid role claim.

That said all his logic is really solid and it's a whole hell of a lot more likely that he just likes haikus at this point. Definitely not enough to accuse of scumminess yet.

[Scott Brosius]

Deadline is Dec 6 1pm EST
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Vote Count 1

Carrotcake (0)-
Chaotic Neutrality (0)-
chkflip (0)-
Guderian (0)-
Guthrie (0)-
Hanzo_5 (3)-themanhimself, Carrotcake, Guthrie
Internet Stranger (2)- Jase, Rain
Jase (1)- Chaotic Neutrality
Llamarble (1)- chkflip
Rain (1)- Guderian
themanhimself (1)- Llamarble
xsrk (2)- Internet Stranger, Hanzo_5

Not Voting (1)- xsrk

[Internet Stranger]

I bow to the awesomeness of Carrotcake. Im in. I just wish I had seen it myself first.

Unvote: xsrk
Vote: Hanzo_5

[chkflip]

The way that Hanzo responds to CC's haiku is another point to his scumminess, among everything else already stated.

UNVOTE: Llamarble

VOTE: Hanzo_5

[themanhimself]

I'd have to agree with that, trying to play off a vote like it's a joke is pretty scummy to me

[Llamarble]

I have more to say later, but for now I'd just like to point out that

Hanzo is at L - 2

[Hanzo_5]

Golly Gee I wanted to have this game, I

wanted

to be comedic relief! But i see I have to be super aggressive (as per usual) for anyone to think i'm town.

Everyone, my first two votes were random votes. I'm always very suspicious of the person who brings us out of random voting stage. However, he actually brings up a good; point the man himself is role fishing. I normally wouldn't say anything in the hopes that he would hang himself even further, but after it was brought he continued to attempt to and didnt respond to what seemed like questions aimed at him.

Before you read on, I think its quite ludicrous carrotcake compiled her scum tells from RVS. that in my opinion is a scum tell, along with your weak arguments.

Carrotcake, i find case "a)" on me quite faulty. Mainly in that your argument at its core is based on a voting pattern that i do not exhibit. Also trying to guess what I'm thinking without asking me, seems to only make ur guesses seem like WIFOM to me. It is also based on the notion that I am trying to look town, and i dont see how i can look anything if we r in RVS

Case "b)" is a defense, I am not gonna refute ur vote, what I do find interesting is why you think i would, or why its a refutable vote based on what your initial reason was.

Case "c)" In my opinion it is your play style to assume, if you do that I, and any percieved scum, can out ur argument with "i never said that". However i do think thats scummy and an even better way to

be invisible

Your conclusion while being the best part of your argument, it is based on the idea that acting like town is not acting like town, and being neutral is acting like town. I could quote you but its all here on the same page.

In my mind you are scum number one, reasons:

You said my last vote spread votes thin, but my last vote was for xsrk and internet stranger voted for him before me. U lied Honesty is always the best policy as town.

In actuality your vote on me spread votes thin.

Your case has too many holes in it. If i were ur scum buddy, themanhimself, i could easily get out of ur fake case against me.

I'm sure you saw this coming as u know what im probably thinking, and themanhimslef said he would be calling himself psychic if i flipped mafia.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Carrotcake

[Guthrie]

Indeed. themanhimself last post looks like he is already thinking about the flip, and that he also knows the result.

Fos

[Internet Stranger]

That looks like an OMGUS vote.

[Hanzo_5]

Your avatar looks like an OMGUS vote .

Atleat give a reason as to why this is an OMGUS vote, instead of leaving me in the dark and putting no fact backed thoughts into peoples mind.

[Guderian]

Why is it OMGUS?

1. carrot makes a case on you.
2. happenings
3. you vote carrot.

do you think carrot is mafia for bringing up a case on you or simply misguided?

[Hanzo_5]

Guderian, Thank you for clarifying. Did you read my post or just skim I gave every reason for why I voted for her. In my opinion my reasons do not indicate OMGUS. So, what about my reasons for voting are OMGUS?

[themanhimself]

Hanzo and Llamarble

I guess I didn't clarify quite enough earlier but me bringing up CN's poetry was not a fish for a role on my part, but rather me trying to point out that this seemed like a town allied restriction considering the theme of this game, i.e. the people who have invaded the Jersey Shore (at least on the tv show) are not exactly poets by any means. If we can work from the idea that CN is either faking a role restriction or legitimately has one which leans towards town, then that informs our vote overall and helps avoid a mislynch. Really my goal was the same as Llamarble's in that I was trying to generate a discussion which could lead to an intelligent vote. I don't think anyone could try and extract a PR out of a role restriction as simple as that even if they wanted to and at this point in the game I don't see why anyone would want to.
I see his poems as perhaps as a role restriction rather than just being witty because not only was his first post written in that form, but so was his additional correction. That said there's no evidence either way about whether he's faking it or not and the evidence is so limited about whether he was just being witty that I wouldn't go so far as to say he definitely wasn't.

Guthrie

I don't see how any post at all of mine seems like I'm going to flip votes, particularly the one you pointed out as it was still discussing possible scumminess on Hanzo's part. In fact, I've only cast a single vote this entire game and I wouldn't say I've ever come close to seeming like I was going to flip. I at one time briefly analyzed CC in a light that may have cast some scum, but I made it clear at the end that I did not find him actions to be scummy nor did I believe him to be scum. In fact, that entire post goes right along with my initial post about chaotic neutrality in the 'merely encouraging light debate and not really calling anyone out' category.



The reason I never changed my vote from Hanzo is that he's simply acting the scummiest. Every point CC brought up was totally valid and in Hanzo's response he did a fairly poor job of countering those points beside the fact that the vote he cast at the end is clearly not fueled by any valid points (that he's brought up at least) that make CC seem scummy. Voting for retribution and not reason is the scummiest tactic there is and even if it isn't it's dumb enough and harmful enough for the town side to warrant

confirmVote:Hanzo_5

.

[themanhimself]

I'm also having a really hard time finding any point at which carrot made a case against me at all so I'm really unsure what scumbuddy vibe you're picking up on here, besides using it as clear misdirection from your own scumminess.

[Jase]

TMH: Your role restriction speculation is silly at best, and scummy at worst. For one, you say that there's a misunderstanding and that your speculation is based on him being a town aligned role with a poetic restriction. This doesn't do anything at all to refute the accusations of rolefishing against you, as it is in fact the very definition of rolefishing to look for town powerroles. That is why it is a scum tell to rolefish. Are you admitting to rolefishing here? It seems like you're admitting to rolefishing. Second is that you buddy up with CC stating that "I made it clear at the end that I did not find him actions to be scummy nor did I believe him to be scum.", and then sheeping her case on hanzo. Third is that you aren't scumhunting. You just jump on Hanzo some more, basing your confirm vote on CCs Case and the OMGUS accusation that someone else already brought up. Fouth is simply that there is no reason to expect a role restriction so soon. Why not...um...wait and see if he posts in poems after the RVS?

Vote: TMH

This isn't to say that the case on Hanzo isn't any good (the case against him is fairly reasonable, his defense is pretty weak, and his vote looks like OMGUS to me) but I like a TMH wagon much better.

[Hanzo_5]

themanhimself, i dont understand what you mean by flip votes... when I said:

I'm sure you saw this coming as u know what im probably thinking, and themanhimslef said he would be calling himself psychic if i flipped mafia.

flipped mafia means, if/when I'm lynched you it will be revealed that I am mafia, however I am a vanilla townie.

Jase, I see that the two of you agree that my defense is weak, what exactly is weak about it?

Everyone, I'm getting the vibe from you all that my innocents is only proven upon dying and flipping townie. If you are all in agreement with this Lynch me now. If the flaws i pointed out in ccs argument are that weak, and my case against carrotcake is that OMGUS. Lynch my ass, what do u have to lose. If carrotcake is right and im mafia ur good. If carrot cake is wrong and i'm town... What I think is the strongest case i have ever presented is merelt "meh" to all of you and who needs a townie like that anyway?

[Chaotic Neutrality]

Jersey

I declare myself confirmed town.

Everyone knows people from

that

place are

orange

scum.

[Chaotic Neutrality]

Why are we thinking that chaotic neutrality is writing everything as a poem? Role restriction is the obvious guess, any more elaborate ideas?

It seems awfully early to speculate about that, I would easily believe he simply likes writing poems.

I decided I'd start the game off with a couple (admittedly crappy) poems and see how that worked out. It was a gambit to blast us out of RVS (which I hate with a passion) and reaction fish a bit. I got nothing from the actual reactions to my poems, but the reactions to the reactions are quite revealing.

Best example:

My first nonrandom vote goes to:
VOTE: themanhimself

He hypothesizes post restriction and then asks for other ideas.

I would have done the same in that situation. I consider what he did a town/neutral move.

I don't see anything coming of this other than discussion of special roles, which helps scum.

Not really. If we were discussing any special roles, it would be of post restriction. Post restrictions are given irregardless of alignment.

scum are more likely to have "PRs on the brain" so this strikes me as a scum thought process.

Post restriction is given irregardless of role too.

Scum are also likely more likely to emphasize being part of the team with word choice such as "we."

"We" is quite obviously addressing the town as a whole. Scum are no more likely to use "we" than town are.

Finally, his post has a strong feel of "trying to look useful without being so."

This is the only part of your post I agree with.

Red italics

are mine. The questions (not quoted) he asked weren't particularly helpful to scumhunting. It looks like he grabbed the first opportunity he could to make a big deal out of something to look helpful.

More later, supper first.