Open 267- Lovers Mafia- Game Over

[DavidParker]

Hammer Hiraki?

I'd rather not lynch shotty at this point.

At this point I'm leaning towards a Hiraki or chk lynch for today.. Third would have to be Later.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Voting:
Hiraki: (3) Lateralus22 drmyshottyizsik, DavidParker
drmyshottyizsik:(3) Hiraki, Empking, chkflip

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[chkflip]

@Lateralus:
- I was never upset, I just use aggressive wordplay to help my scumhunting. I know it makes me look scummy, but I've found that people (who are scum) tend to try to out my obviously falsified tells.

- It helps my read because it looks as if you're trying to spin it any way you possibly can.

- It didn't take long for me to gather my opinion that you're scum, but basing it off a jump from an RVS vote would have been silly of me.

- Questioning is not scummy by any means. I was merely questioning your use of votes/questions in relation to one another.

- I did not miss your post, I was simply asking if there was anything more than that. Which, obviously, there wasn't.
-- All you said was he's floating (which isn't hard to do on p1 of d1), he didn't vote, and lack of investigating. None of which are scumtells on p1 of d1 in my book. Later on, however, and now you've got yourself a case I can agree with.

- I thought, and still think, it's pretty obvious why it could be scum-driven. I don't spoonfeed.

- Why should I elaborate on town-reads? You feel your way and I feel mine. Done.

- You bringing town-reads up is the only reason that question even crossed my mind.

- I didn't say he was more helpful, I said he was

trying

to be. In other words, he wasn't. He's actually quite the opposite and for that I thought he was scummier than Hiraki. My thoughts have since changed.

- What contradiction? You've still yet to vote shotty, who could still very well be your partner. I don't get what you're getting at with that.

- I think Hiraki is entitled to his opinion, as do anyone else who are getting "bad vibes" from my posts. No questions have been asked of me, so I cannot further elaborate as I don't know why he (or anyone for that matter) has these vibes, short of my aggresive style.

@shotty/hiraki:
- I'm with DP on this one. I'm completely lost on several parts of the argument.

@DP:
- Why a chk lynch? You've expressed your distaste for me but never elaborated, especially not to the point of wanting a lynch. Could you please elaborate on this?

@all:
- With two weeks left, there's still a great amount of time before the hammer should fall. Let's try to get some better reads before making any hasty decisions.

- I'm feeling a bit better, but still not 100%, so that's where my confusion may lie (shotty/hiraki convo). I'll give my view of reads on everyone in my next post, I just thought I'd get any questions toward me out of the way first.

[DavidParker]

Because you are a common element in the most likely scum teams I see possible. While your play hasn't been all that "scummY", it hasn't given me a strong town read on you. In fact my read is somewhat neutral, maybe leaning "slightly" scum. But the thing that tipped me over is your possible link to emp/Later as scum buddies. (I don't see the two of them as being buddies)

What's your thoughts on a hiraki hammer sometime soon CHK?

[Lateralus22]

- It helps my read because it looks as if you're trying to spin it any way you possibly can.

I never tried to make you look like anything it all, and "spinning" you into a jerk like image is just ridiculous since that wouldn't even make anyone scum. Was I wrong to correct you and do you understand why I thought what I did?

- I thought, and still think, it's pretty obvious why it could be scum-driven. I don't spoonfeed.

It isn't obvious, that's why I asked you. By the current logic you presented everything is scum driven >.>

- Why should I elaborate on town-reads? You feel your way and I feel mine. Done.

What town reads? Can you start quoting specific things because I'm struggling to wonder what half the thing you're talking about are.

- What contradiction? You've still yet to vote shotty, who could still very well be your partner. I don't get what you're getting at with that.

He voted for me.

Later on, however, and now you've got yourself a case I can agree with.

And which parts of the case do you agree with?

It didn't take long for me to gather my opinion that you're scum, but basing it off a jump from an RVS vote would have been silly of me.

Can you list why you think I'm scum? So far I got

-Votes you then Hiraki
-Asks questions
-Apparently makes you look like a douche

First one you're saying now is silly, second isn't scummy, third isn't even true. Am I wrong or have misunderstood your case?

Notes:

Still prefer Hiraki lynch, personally I don't feel we should wait around 2 weeks unless we

have

to. (Using time for the sake of using it is stupid, if someone wants to keep the conversation going bring something up themselves.)

Shotty looks like Vi-Town, mainly gut.

Shotty isn't saying IIoA is scummy, stop saying he is. Hiraki is starting to look better but mehhhh gonna stick with my case and gut. chkflip is a secondary option if anyone is interested. Empking is a maybe, but I don't really think so because of rise of the shotty wagon.

Edit that's not really an edit but may conflict a bit with above.

- Questioning is not scummy by any means. I was merely questioning your use of votes/questions in relation to one another.

Ah missed this, then your second point is mute >.> Seriously, what's wrong with questioning to bring forth info/cause pressure?

-----

David what made you start thinking shotty was town?

Now just to dispel any misinterpretations, I don't FoS Lateralus22 fully. However, I'm suspecting him. I don't like his post style and his attacks toward me.

Not that he's attacking me, I'm fine with that. It's what he's attacking with.

1)

No, I disliked your mode of questioning.

DP on the other hand just has horrible attacks.

I iz confused.

[DavidParker]

Thanks for your question Later! It may have just condemned you though!!!

Well:

Why I initially concluded Shotty was town:

Assumption One: No one on his wagon at this point is likely his scum partner -- Chk joined the wagon very late. Hiraki vs Shotty interactions earlier in the game and at this point definitely isn't distancing, but genuine attacks of one trying to get the other lynched. Emp+shotty seems unlikely since it was emp who largely started/pushed the shotty wagon after hiraki did.

Not-Assumption Two: I'm not his scum partner.

So that left you, and ,now, here's where I stumbled... I remember a mental note I put down earlier that I don't believe shotty/Later to be scum partners due to shotty pushing Later to L-1 early in this day. I was just going back to confirm all this and actually saw something peculiar.

Page 2 shotty's first post: Votes Later saying to "calm down its just a game", quite likely busing although nothing substancial. No reason or case associated with his vote. And he doesn't really push this wagon at all or ever state how he finds Later scummy. As soon as people hop of Later's wagon (Emp/Hiraki start the shotty wagon, and as a result Later's wagon diminishes), Shotty moves his vote away from Later (his scum buddy?) and puts it on Hiraki. I had just pushed the Hiraki wagon, and shotty more or less just hopped on the bandwagon here possibly seeing an oppurtunity. Now, all this while, Later was responding to being at L-1, he COMPLETELY IGNORED shotty. He was responding to CHK/emp who were attacking him but didn't comment on Later. This is what caught me. Sure, there wasn't much to respond to as shotty was being a useless non-contributor, but there was plenty to attack. If I was later I would have gone after shotty for his dumb vote on me. Instead, he ignores it, almost knowing his wagon will fall apart in time, and just not wanting to return fire at his scum partner.

Anyways, I'm going to get to the point: Shotty+Later are likely scum buddies.

HOWEVER, Later is a better lynch than shotty. I think his play throughout the game has been just as scummy and in some situations more scummy than shotty's. Additionally, there are other players I can see being linked to Later as scum partners, but not to shotty. The only possible scum-partner I see for shotty is Later. So if shotty is scum, later is scum, ie: we can lynch either. But, if shotty isn't scum, later might still be scum (i see a possible pairing with emp as well).


So, here's my flip-flop:

Vote: Lateralus22

My case in a nutshell:
Shotty first-post distances himself from Later by voting.
Later COMPLETELY IGNORES shotty.
Shotty hops off the wagon once it quietens down and hops on the easy-Hiraki wagon.
Later hasn't hopped on the shotty wagon (Something I feel he would have done in his position)
Later is defending shotty now and trying to prevent his lynch. At this point in the day scum have to try save their scum buddy earlier on you can vote/distance to some extent, but with shotty's lynch looking likely, it's in Later's interets to push a Hiraki wagon.


So,
TL;DR: later is scum. Shotty is probably his buddy. Later is a better lynch than shotty because that's shotty's only possible scum-buddy, while Later could likely be scum with emp.

[Lateralus22]

Shotty first-post distances himself from Later by voting.

Why is this scummy of shotty but not Empking? I'd hardly consider that mere distancing when I figured there was a real chance of me being lynched.

Later COMPLETELY IGNORES shotty.

False. I asked him if he thought I was scum.

Shotty hops off the wagon once it quietens down and hops on the easy-Hiraki wagon.

And? He thought Hiraki was scum, why shouldn't he vote him then?

Later hasn't hopped on the shotty wagon (Something I feel he would have done in his position)

Yeah I'd totally hammer him even though I'm much sure of Hiraki, the guy I've been pushing the whole game to be scum.

Later is defending shotty now and trying to prevent his lynch. At this point in the day scum have to try save their scum buddy earlier on you can vote/distance to some extent, but with shotty's lynch looking likely, it's in Later's interets to push a Hiraki wagon.

Because I think he's town. Why wouldn't I defend someone I think is town? The only way he'd be scum if if he's scum with you and Hiraki is town. I doubt both of those.

HOWEVER, Later is a better lynch than shotty. I think his play throughout the game has been just as scummy and in some situations more scummy than shotty's.

How have I been scummy?

[Lateralus22]

Instead, he ignores it, almost knowing his wagon will fall apart in time, and just not wanting to return fire at his scum partner.

That's stupid, there's no way I could have known another wagon would risen when everyone was only focusing on me and I was attacking Hiraki. Your "case" is broken down into "He didn't think shotty was scum thefor scum!". Why wouldn't I believe shotty to have a chance being town?

[Hiraki]

If Shotty is Lateralus' buddy, then why the hell are you voting Lateralus, instead of Shotty? Being Lovers, they die together anyway, no?

[Lateralus22]

Hiraki is really good at confusing me.

[DavidParker]

If Shotty is Lateralus' buddy, then why the hell are you voting Lateralus, instead of Shotty? Being Lovers, they die together anyway, no?

hint: read my post, I explain why I prefer a Lateralus lynch.

[Lateralus22]

Hiraki what do you think of David's case?

Preview Edit: David should respond to my posts.

[DavidParker]

I prefer not to engage in back and forth argument vs response vs response vs response because it tends to be more counter-productive to town than anything. I knew beforehand what the "shortcomings" of my case on you were and what you would respond with. It doesn't change the fact that I still believe you to be scum. But I'm glad you responsed as that has helped my read on you.

[Lateralus22]

I knew beforehand what the "shortcomings" of my case on you were and what you would respond with. It doesn't change the fact that I still believe you to be scum. But I'm glad you responsed as that has helped my read on you.

No, your case is shit. Explain why I can't think Shotty is town and how I've been scummy. Get your fucking paranioa out because that's all your case is.

[Lateralus22]

If you lynch me today do you PROMISE to lynch either Hiraki or chkflip tomorrow?

[DavidParker]

I'd probably be lynching chk tomorrow. As if you flip town, then essentially shotty is town, and I see the scum team being either emp+chk or chk+hiraki.

But I'd still want to wait and see how that goes. As it stands, I'd still be happy with a chk lynch (or yours)

[Lateralus22]

That's slightly better, now answer my goddamn questions.

[DavidParker]

It's scummy of shotty but not of empking because of the way shotty came and voted you to "calm down" after someone else had just done that. He mimic'd empking and could be considered him trying to "fit in with town".


I don't doubt that he thinks Hiraki scummy. But my entire case on Hiraki was there already before I came and made it. It was only after your wagon fizzled and others had made the case for you being scum he jumped on the wagon. Why not see a scummy-ish case on Hiraki and vote him instead of putting a useless vote on your, or switch his vote sooner? It seemed he switched his vote at a time when it would go unnoticed as something 'scummy'.

You've been scummy by trying too hard and the tone of some of your posts seeming "forced" and not genuinely town to me at times.

With that said, I'm satisfied with your response, and contemplating revoting Hiraki or voting for CHK.

[Hiraki]

active lurking is lurking within your posts,

not

watching the thread and

not

posting.

^^This gramaticly says activee lurking IS lurking with in your posts, NOT, watching the thread while not posting.

This isn't the point.

Your first definition of Active Lurking says that the person is not posting, not watching the thread, and lurking within your posts. I believe lurking within your posts refers to posting fluff.

Your second definition of Active Lurking talks about posting fluff in your post, and lurking through your posts.

The big difference is that Person A, who is Active Lurking, according to definition one, is someone that's not even looking at the thread, and posts just to avoid prods. Person B, who is Actively Lurking according to definition two, is someone that is like me, according to you. There is no way in hell that my posting style in this game can be compared to your first definition of Active Lurking.

To move on, and basically repeat myself, I am quite aware that Shotty has said that IIoA is null to him. However, I want you to compare the second definition of Actively Lurking, and IIoA. From my standpoint, they're not too far and in between.

Respond to my other points, pretty please?

- I'm with DP on this one. I'm completely lost on several parts of the argument.

Which parts, and why are you voting Shotty if you're confused.

- I'm feeling a bit better, but still not 100%, so that's where my confusion may lie (shotty/hiraki convo). I'll give my view of reads on everyone in my next post, I just thought I'd get any questions toward me out of the way first.

Awaiting this post enviously.

I iz confused.

In terms of how you are attacking, rather than the questions.

Hiraki is really good at confusing me.

Seeing that DP hasn't said much about Empking, this would leave Shotty/Lateralus scum team one of his most favorable propositions. Perhaps I'm incorrect, but in Lover's Mafia(this is my first Lover's Game, so sorry if I'm incorrect), if one scum dies, doesn't the other one die that night? I don't see why DP would have any problem hammering on Shotty, seeing that the Lateralus doesn't have high expectations with everyone else. However, I do take that back, since DP could've had a favorable case. At that point, I just skimmed through it, being on my iPod.

Hiraki what do you think of David's case?

Yuck.

This brings me to a new point. DP has been

really

flip-floppy lately. Am I the only one who has noted this a little?

I prefer not to engage in back and forth argument vs response vs response vs response because it tends to be more counter-productive to town than anything. I knew beforehand what the "shortcomings" of my case on you were and what you would respond with. It doesn't change the fact that I still believe you to be scum. But I'm glad you responded as that has helped my read on you.

Explain. I find that if a case makes sense when it's fully explained by its presenter, it makes better sense than before, in the sense that it may have some faults to its' meanings.

Also, how does responding help your read on him? In fact, if he's still scum, then how does it change your read at all?

If you lynch me today do you PROMISE to lynch either Hiraki or chkflip tomorrow?

Did you visit Chkflip's house lately for some of that stuff he was smoking?

That's all I believe I need to say.

[DavidParker]

I don't like Hiraki's latest post.

[Hiraki]

You're not supposed to like it.

[Lateralus22]

It's scummy of shotty but not of empking because of the way shotty came and voted you to "calm down" after someone else had just done that. He mimic'd empking and could be considered him trying to "fit in with town".

Cuz making a useless vote is a perfect way to emulate town like behavior amright? It makes perfect sense for shotty to want me to calm down on his own because he's the type of player who plays for fun or his own enjoyment.

Think of it like this, Is shotty,

A) Uber pro town player who plays effective town games and NEVER screws around
B) VI as both alignments, spends his time fucking around most of the time

I don't doubt that he thinks Hiraki scummy. But my entire case on Hiraki was there already before I came and made it. It was only after your wagon fizzled and others had made the case for you being scum he jumped on the wagon. Why not see a scummy-ish case on Hiraki and vote him instead of putting a useless vote on your, or switch his vote sooner? It seemed he switched his vote at a time when it would go unnoticed as something 'scummy'.

Because he's a VI for christs sake. Do you honestly believe shotty's putting his best effort to lynch scum this game, or any game?

You've been scummy by trying too hard and the tone of some of your posts seeming "forced" and not genuinely town to me at times.

Trying too hard? Sorry, but I like to play the game. I'm generally the driving force of my reads and when I'm sure, I push it like there's no tomorrow. Mini 1021 & Newbie 1020 are great examples of this.

As for not sounding "genuine/forced" I can't see this as all. I play loud & proud and my play is for the most part always aggressive and transparent.

Note:

Hiraki is right about Shotty's def's being slightly different but meh. When one scum dies it's a town win, there are no nights.

Did you visit Chkflip's house lately for some of that stuff he was smoking?

Hiraki's still confusing me >.<
Would you be down with a chkflip lynch?

btw, would be nice if Hiraki could give me a thorough read on chk and David.

Why is David's flip flopping suspicious? Unless he's scum with either of you I thought it sounded pretty townie.

[DavidParker]

I feel as if emp and I have gone completely unnoticed for the most part of this game; While I don't particularly mine being in that position, it is making it harder to read people, since both scum and town are ignoring me ;/

[Hiraki]

Would you be down with a chkflip lynch?

Not sure at the moment. I'm still 100% down for a Shotty lynch, if you wanted to know.

What I meant by that, was why you would ever make the notion of trusting the town with your reads. While I believe you are townie, I do not believe you have the correct reads, obv. Therefore, I'd think it to be pretty bad to put something like this forth on the table.

I'd like to get a better read on Chkflip, and DP. But at the moment, I doubt that'll change anyway. DP looks scummy, Chkflip looks sort-kinda-probably townie.

DP's reads changing over the basis of 3 posts is scummy, especially when it's for a crappy reason.

[DavidParker]

You seem to be avoiding emp more than anyone. You set on a town read on him?