Bomb Mafia -- Game Over

[danakillsu]

/confirm
Sorry I'm late.

[themanhimself]

/confirm, most active pre-game ever?

[themanhimself]

Jack, either you softclaimed a role that has info about the bomb or your plan is non-sensical, it's most likely that the mod is randomizing bomb times and even if not I imagine he's setting it up so that there's no pattern involved. He said in the rules that he was aiming to minimize his own influence on the deadline so ideally you'll have basically no information about when it goes off unless you have a role with that information built in and soft-claimed as Hoopla pointed out.

[Jack]

Nonsense.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I hate Jack's response to themanhimself. Responding to an attack with a post that basically asks "What the hell are you talking about?" is a cheap way to dismiss it. I say he gets passed the bomb first.

[themanhimself]

I would be totally alright with that if it wasn't exactly what he wants. I feel like he's scum trying to get control of the bomb so he can use it in his scummy ways. He's already said he won't pass it until right before the deadline (again, this makes no sense) and then give it to whomever he wants, so giving him the bomb is basically making a scummy player into a day-vig.

[hitogoroshi]

Tentative thoughts:

No one is allowed to hold on to the bomb more than one day.

You are not allowed to pass the bomb to the person who passed it to you.

The first rule is to get as many hands on the bomb as possible (if the scum know the bomb times, and are allowed to cook the bomb, it becomes a free kill for them) and the second rule avoids back-forth chains that will be the death of the first person in the chain to get the bomb.

[AntB]

I want to play outguess the mod regarding the first deadline and pass it to someone right before it goes off.

So you want to either blow yourself up or essentially kill a player of your choosing... lucky my policy is if its not said in game, its not in game...

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP: "One day" is real life day, not game day. If you're not in the thread for 24 hours, your first post when you return MUST pass the bomb.

Also, I thought of something:

Mod: What happens if we lynch the player holding the bomb?

The next bomb dropped into the game will be given to a player at random.

[themanhimself]

I definitely agree with the second one there, it will give us a lot of information and make the exploding process more democratic as three players would have to pass someone the bomb to doom them.

Mod: Since the pre-game has been so active could we go ahead and consider the game started? I want to start voting Jack asap

Starting it now.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I oppose any arbitrary rules, such as the ones hito proposed.

[hitogoroshi]

They're not arbitrary. I proposed both of them because they explicitly help the town. If you believe either one of them are anti-town, please say why.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

First one contains an arbitrary length of time. I'll worry about scum having that sort of power when there's been any sort of indication; if people want to take the risk of the bomb exploding, then that's their business.

Second one bans a certain type of behaviour because a comic book style exaggeration of it looks anti-town - if people have a good reason to pass it back, let them.

[AurorusVox]

I definitely agree with the second one there, it will give us a lot of information and make the exploding process more democratic as three players would have to pass someone the bomb to doom them.

Not necessarily. That's a slightly different rule. You could still keep passing it to the same person, so long as they didn't pass it to you:

A passes to B; B passes to C; C passes to A; A passes to B (rinse wash repeat)

To achieve the effect you're after, we'd have to say that you can only pass to each person once. I think that could end up handcuffing us in the longrun, though, so we'll have to see how the democracy of the bomb or otherwise plays out.

---

Saying no back and forth is okay in general but I think it needs to be relaxed in particular instances such as CCs etc.; or if we've decided someone

needs

to get blown up, not being able to "back and forth it" could put

unneccessary

hands on the bomb. If A realises that they're just getting the bomb given back to them from B, its their own fault for keep giving it back to B...

Also, you could say that passing a bomb straight back to someone

just because they passed it to you

constitutes OMGUS, and it can be treated as such. People who just pass it back to whoever gives it to them should get questioned and pushed on it regardless of whether we set up rules or not.

[SpyreX]

Hito's good folk.

[Benmage]

Can people comment on my statement on what todo with the bomb...It seems safest to use it as a secondary lynch. We reduce the most amount variables with this method. We avoid early explosions...people holding onto it too long...passing it at the last second..."arbitrary rules"....Its simple...logical...and makes this game essentially a dual lynch game.

[hitogoroshi]

First one contains an arbitrary length of time. I'll worry about scum having that sort of power when there's been any sort of indication; if people want to take the risk of the bomb exploding, then that's their business.

The point is that we don't know if the scum are taking a risk at all. I don't want to give the scum a free kill by letting them cook the bomb until it goes off. Yes, we don't know whether or not the scum know the times, but "let's all stand under this anvil until there's an indication it will fall" doesn't make sense when it's frightfully easy to simply step out of its shadow.

Second one bans a certain type of behaviour because a comic book style exaggeration of it looks anti-town - if people have a good reason to pass it back, let them.

The scum have a great reason - if there's a back-and-forth passing chain, whoever had the bomb first in the chain is out. So, as scum, the optimal play is to always pass it to the person who passed it to you. It also saves you from having to interact with anyone else. And even if someone calls you on it, what are they going to do? Pass it back to you? That's exactly what you want. And, crucially, because a townie can also suspect someone who suspects them, we can't simply punish anyone who passes back. I briefly considered NOT mentioning this in thread, and voting for anyone who passed to the person who passed to them, but on reflection it's too natural for someone to simply counter-bomb.

Let me be clear about something. It is impossible to bomb any scum unless scum start holding the bomb when passbacks are allowed. They simply have to pass back to the person who passed to them. By disallowing passbacks, we have two benefits: firstly, if we realize a very obvious scum (or if all want the same policy lynch) and our first pass is on to them, they cannot escape being bombed without doing a pass-back. Secondly, while scum can still protect themselves if they aren't the first pass (by aiming for someone who's already passed), it makes it far more difficult to pass off naturally. If we have, say, Fate>Spyrex>Fate>Spyrex>Fate>Spyrex>Fate, it's difficult to discern whether this was a legitimate heated argument or Spyrex-scum saving his skin. Fate > Jack > Spyrex > Fate > Katsuki > Spyrex > Fate > hito > Spyrex > Fate is considerably more damning.

Can people comment on my statement on what todo with the bomb...It seems safest to use it as a secondary lynch. We reduce the most amount variables with this method. We avoid early explosions...people holding onto it too long...passing it at the last second..."arbitrary rules"....Its simple...logical...and makes this game essentially a dual lynch game.

I agree with you in that it should be a second lynch. But I think the rules are needed to minimize scum interference. If tunneling on someone all game made you lynch-immune, we would need these same rules for voting.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The point is that we don't know if the scum are taking a risk at all. I don't want to give the scum a free kill by letting them cook the bomb until it goes off. Yes, we don't know whether or not the scum know the times, but "let's all stand under this anvil until there's an indication it will fall" doesn't make sense when it's frightfully easy to simply step out of its shadow.

There is no shadow.

I see no reason to let your paranoia force restrictions upon our play.

The scum have a great reason - if there's a back-and-forth passing chain, whoever had the bomb first in the chain is out. So, as scum, the optimal play is to always pass it to the person who passed it to you.

The player to first have the bomb thus has no incentive to get a chain going and the scum recipient has no motive to give him back.

Let me be clear about something. It is impossible to bomb any scum unless scum start holding the bomb when passbacks are allowed. They simply have to pass back to the person who passed to them. By disallowing passbacks, we have two benefits: firstly, if we realize a very obvious scum (or if all want the same policy lynch) and our first pass is on to them, they cannot escape being bombed without doing a pass-back. Secondly, while scum can still protect themselves if they aren't the first pass (by aiming for someone who's already passed), it makes it far more difficult to pass off naturally. If we have, say, Fate>Spyrex>Fate>Spyrex>Fate>Spyrex>Fate, it's difficult to discern whether this was a legitimate heated argument or Spyrex-scum saving his skin. Fate > Jack > Spyrex > Fate > Katsuki > Spyrex > Fate > hito > Spyrex > Fate is considerably more damning.

You're essentially assuming that 1) scum don't have to justify their passes and 2) that most people will die as a result from not having any passes left. I don't know about #2, but #1 is patently ridiculous - I do not expect to see a lot of passbacks.

[AntB]

Can people comment on my statement on what todo with the bomb...It seems safest to use it as a secondary lynch. We reduce the most amount variables with this method. We avoid early explosions...people holding onto it too long...passing it at the last second..."arbitrary rules"....Its simple...logical...and makes this game essentially a dual lynch game.

We did, we can't use it as a second lynch because there's an unknown timer on the bomb. We need to keep it on the scummiest player.

[Jack]

There really isn't that much to say about the bomb. It explodes and kills people, so you don't want to keep it, and you want to pass it to someone you wouldn't mind dying.

Hopefully I will get it to start.

[Fate]

Pre-game set-up breaking is meh.

I'm busy in my QT talking to my buddies and all you fucks are getting free town reads on eachother.

ITS NOT FAIR GODDAMNT

[hitogoroshi]

There is no shadow. I see no reason to let your paranoia force restrictions upon our play.

Are you saying you're certain the scum do not know the bombs times?

The player to first have the bomb thus has no incentive to get a chain going and the scum recipient has no motive to give him back.

"No motive to give him (it, btw, unless the bomb has a dick I don't know about) back?" Being immune to the bomb, and moreover, being immune to the bomb you know at least one person wants to give you, seems to me to be one hell of a motive.

You're essentially assuming that 1) scum don't have to justify their passes and 2) that most people will die as a result from not having any passes left. I don't know about #2, but #1 is patently ridiculous - I do not expect to see a lot of passbacks.

1. Scum do indeed have to justify their passes - but, generally, it's easier to justify a pass back to someone who passed to you then it is to justify to an unrelated person who just-so-happens to have passed already.

2. It's better for the town for the people to die of pass-loss than from time - which incidentally is another argument in favor of max 1 day for bomb holding. Pass-loss means that the bomb was passed to that target four times (three if they were original holder), AND that the last person to pass them the bomb knew that it would result in their death, which is also helpful information in and of itself.

Once again, if you have arguments that these restrictions would be anti-town, I'm all ears. But you instead seem to be taking the position that "NO ONE TALK ABOUT THE BOMB. EVERYONE JUST DO WHAT YOU WANT." I assume scum are talking about the bomb. I sure as hell want to be as well. If we indulge in passing with no thought and no restrictions, we're suckers and scummy motivations can be passed off as ignorance. I don't like being a sucker, and I

really

don't like playing the "Was this scummy motivated thing coming from scum or just town that didn't think about it?" WIFOM game.

[Hoopla]

Bomb passes should be looked at like L-3, L-2, L-1 and hammer votes. If you're going to pass the bomb to someone who only has one pass left, you should have a pretty good reason - if you're going to pass it to someone who has no passes, then you need to have a very very good reason to do so. I like how this game is going to punish anyone lurking or inactive for long (or even small) periods of time.

The only way we're going to bomb scum is through townies repeatedly passing back to one player, locking the bomb in on them - we'd have to be very lucky for scum to catch it, just holding onto the bomb. I don't think scum know the bomb times, they might have a 1-shot bomb manipulation role or something to screw with the mechanics, but scum knowing or even being hinted the times by the mod seems a little broken, or at best very biased against the town.

[RedCoyote]

The politicians, leaders, administrators, and specialists looked at each other with distrust. "Read it again, maybe there's some sort of clue." A burlap sack sat in the middle of the lobby's floor. The party, those remaining at least, were scared to move. Every time they headed for the exit, another explosion went off, harming the rest. Only a select few remained. Although the bomb squad had arrived to help, trained for this sort of environment, there was a unspoken feeling that perhaps they were just as vulnerable as everyone else.

There are no kings and no queens. No poor and no rich.
If you try to leave, the building will fall.
Tick, tock, tick, tock.

"I'm telling you, we had this building locked down tight", the Commissioner started, "there's just no way this was something from the outside." The group looked at each other again.

*BE-EEP* *BE-EEP*...

Cogito Ergo Sum

picked up the bomb.

---

Vote Count 1.0

• Not Voting

  (14) (Nobody Special - SpyreX - AurorusVox - StrangerCoug - Fate - Katsuki - danakillsu - Jack - Hoopla - hitogoroshi - AntB - Cogito Ergo Sum - themanhimself - Benmage)
  
  
  
  Bomb possessed by: Cogito Ergo Sum

With fourteen alive, it takes eight to lynch.
Current Deadline: Feb. 9th, 2011 at 2:00 AM (CST)

[hitogoroshi]

Vote: Katsuki