Mafia 1114: Jim's Mafia - Game OVER!!!!

[Humble Poirot]

I will murder you if you don't protect me next game!!!

Oh! Wait... You said Death Threa

D

.

here: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/viQ42hgjCHU6m

[Oso]

I was doing some what-ifs with this game starting from what did happen from Night 1.

I think N2, even if Prox hadn't flaked, we would have had a good chance of still having a no-kill night.

Knife Mafia had their kill on HP go through so even if they suspected there might be a Doctor, after I claimed, I think they still would have probably tried to hit me. So that would have been the same as Night 1, both groups trying to kill the same person. The main difference there being that this time magnus would have prevented both groups while I did nothing really useful at all except make it look like a townie was part of the mafia (which almost happened anyway).

Night 3 might have been quite a bit different though. With Prox active, I would have expected to see two different night kills that night. Both groups would have known their kill was prevented and there was likely a Doc about and probably that Javert was a member of the opposite group. Jerbs went Doc hunting and perhaps (had he been active) Prox might have too but I suspect that if Prox had still been active, you might have seen me or Javert as the second NK on N3. I'd have guessed me. I discount Rob getting killed that night as one mafia (gun) would have known there was a Doc out there and perhaps Knife Mafia would have too. Had Prox still been participating (I had him pegged as just not posting, I didn't realized he had flaked) I probably wouldn't have chosen him as a target. I would probably have chosen Jerbs and perhaps sussed him out and prevented the Amrun kill. Jerbs and Prox were the only two I considered blocking N3 in any case.

Goes back to what Javert said about swinginess. Say what you want about balance but no one, I suspect, takes into account a whole team getting wiped out because of killing/flaking that early into a game. And that is what this was. Had Prox stayed around I suspect the game would still be ongoing with town minus their RB and Cop at this point with a mis-lynch on Javert warming up in the bullpen.

So I think jimfinn and Javert are both right. Town got some

EXTREMELY

good breaks right off the bat and with prox flaking and missing 2 nightkills, town was able to keep that early lead and ride it to the win.

It wouldn't have taken a whole lot for the tables to have been turned and the entire town end up dead with 2-3 scum still remaining to duke it out.

[RobCapone]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2774918

this post is what made me think jerbs was scum, I just 2nd guessed myself

[Oso]

In hindsight, that post does seems pretty damning.

I remember thinking when I read it though, "Now there is someone who is trying to actually figure out what is going on." I pretty much auto-assigned a town motivation to it I think and never thought back on it again.

Bad idea I guess. I don't think I have ever run across scum so openly speculating on roles though except to show what claimed role

ISN'T

possible. But town do that just as often.

As scum, I usually keep what roles I think are in the game to the QT so as to kill them before reveal if possible. That post of Jerbs actually bumped him above the town/scum line a point or two in my mind.

[RobCapone]

can someone post the mafia QTs?

[Edgerobin]

This is the Gun Mafia thread http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/epMRr7EL5yQ

However, I disagree on the fact that this game was balanced. Oso's ability was overpowered, he was like a cop+doc, and there even was an extra cop AND a 50% doc.

Adding 1shot nk immunity makes each scum party stronger against each other; but it plays no role in making it balanced vs town. This game was, in my opinion, almost impossible to win from the POV of scum.

Another thing: I honestly think that outing the info's ICE outed before being lynched is a violation of rule 3.4.

not just us, but both scum parties were in a very difficult situation in the first place. Game was broken by ICE damaging his own party by revealing:
1) daytalk
2) double mafia setup

Too bad... If you want a suggestion, mod, you should eliminate the super-roleblocker. Replacing him with doc and 50% doc with nurse, and eliminating the 1shot nk immunity for at least 1 scum player in each team, would have solved a lot of balance-related problems.

[RobCapone]

1. The 2 scum team was obvious from the opening post actually, nobody read it
2. Scum day talk isn't giving anything away or breaking the game
3. The 1 NK immunity did add balance

but I still feel the normal setup rules were not followed but whatever, it's not the Mod's fault, I blame the review board for letting it through

regular RB, Doc, cop = balance

RB who stops a whole teams NK = not fair ever

[Edgerobin]

nope, I have to insist: it really added no balance at all. Once the RB had claimed, there was a doc to protect him:
think about it in projection:

D2 rb claims, either with a likely scum OR with a likely inno
N2 scum try to kill RB
D3 RB does not die, it becomes evident to both teams that there also is a doc, cuz RB cannot block both mafias
N3 HYPOTHETICAL BEST SCENARIO: one of the mafia's kills the doc
D4...
N4 one of the mafia's kills the RB

at this point, which is supposed to be a lucky-for-scum situation, RB blocked (= gets infos on inno's and guilties with high level of precision) for 3 nights and cop will be able to investigate for 4 nights. Who cares if the cross fire is almost impossible? Both scum teams are helpless against town.

How can this be balanced? And what advantage would it be to the gun mafia to start killing the knife mafia?

I agree with you that the reviewers should have done better. However, I may open a thread in Mafia Discussion, cuz the dynamics of this setup are interesting and they are worth discussing.

I'll let you know if I do.

[jimfinn]

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/epMRr7EL5yQ
http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/y3d5puxnYvU4

From the review from discussion of the Entertainer
"I'm not that worried, to be honest. The roleblocker is there to prevent kills. Even with the chances you mention, you expect the roleblocker to actually stop less then a single kill, and that's in the worst case scenario for the town. I don't have the time to do the full calculation, but I'm estimating that overall, with the chance of making it one more night but also the chance of dying early, we can expect the roleblocker to stop 1 kill in the entire game. I admit that that's stronger then most protective roles (a doctor in a newbie game expects to stop something like 0.25 of a kill), but it doesn't look gamebreaking to me. It means that we finally have found a protective role that will probably actually influence the game."

[Oso]

I guess I'll throw in a bit with Edger there as regards ICENinja.

My Role was worded so that it made me think there might be multiple groups. Initially, I thought 1-Scum group, 1-Mason Group with a power was just as likely as 2 Mafia groups. 2 Mafia was in my thinking but thinking back, had ICE not said what he did in his last posts, I wouldn't have claimed Day 2, I'd have waited until it was obvious there were two mafia groups.

The tipping factor there was not that I thought Edger was outright guilty but rather my blocking him had a better than average possibility of having stopped a kill. Without ICE's pseudo-confirmation of a second Mafia, I'd have likely kept my role and N1 block target to myself until farther down the road as I was still thinking a Town Mason Group had as much of a chance of being a "second" group as it did being a second Mafia. If there was indeed 2 groups.

I've seen games with a Godfather/No-Cop and the like as red herrings to the player who gets them. I was considering the possibility also that jimfinn had done something similar with this role.

[Jerbs]

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/epMRr7EL5yQ

Normally I don't like lurkihng, its just that i was told by edge to blend in and lurk more

[Jerbs]

thats the gun mafia qt

[ICEninja]

Whatever

[RobCapone]

Knife mafia QT I'd imagine was quiet

[Javert]

Though I'm tempted to delete this after seeing ICEninja's post-game post just now, I will still give my two cents (after reading the Knife Mafia QT):

ICEninja, I certainly do not think you "suck" as scum, nor am I "smug" about catching you.

All

scum, for the most part, try to "play like they play as a Townie"; logically, if everybody could actually do it, playing mafia would be practically like drawing numbers from a hat. But clearly there is more to mafia to that. I would suggest that after you've had a good deal more experience as scum that you reread this game; whether you know it or not, there

must

be subtle distinctions between your play here and your play as Town. (For example, I still do not believe you ever would have actually said something like "I was just joking when I said I had a solid tell"; your posts simply did not give that impression at all, and your attempt at defending that course of action was certainly what really got my eye turned towards you.) I lost my first

several

games as scum for reasons I did not fully understand at the time, and as a result I still after five years of playing dread getting scum roles. But as I gained experience, my scum play has steadily improved, and I can now read my old games where I originally thought "Town totally lucked out catching me," and now I can see the tiny mistakes I made that players caught on to (

even if

they seemed to mainly push a point that I did not truly think was indicative of alignment.) Sometimes there is more to a case than what is clearly written on the page; I could not (and still cannot) adequately express

why

I thought you were scum, but there was something in your posting that just did not seem like it was written by a Townsperson.

On that note, please remember that even what appear to be the most hardened hearts can actually be won over. Speaking as the player behind the character, I was second-guessing the case on you a good bit, and I came close to unvoting you at least twice. But it served my purposes -- in other words, I felt I could get a better read on you -- to act as though I was practically convinced. Townies who make it clear they have doubts are giving scum the ammunition they need to wiggle out of a lynch. When I play as Javert, I (generally) try to put the squeeze on players very early and very tightly to see how they react. Although I never quite expressed it, I could definitely sense the more "terrified" side of your posting by about page 6 or so (in the sense that it suggested "Oh God, I'm caught").

For the record, I think Prox had some good advice in the QuickTopic; subtle appeals to emotion, a good revamp post of the game that potentially pushes new and interesting topics / suspicions, a poignant role-claim, etc., can all do what might seem the impossible: stopping yourself from getting lynched. Sometimes just having a forceful personality can do something towards stopping a lynch (for example, I certainly did not roll over and die on Days Three and Four just because I most definitely looked like I was scum due to the circumstances of the game, and I think it helped).

~

For the record, I don't think that pointing out a second scum team is against any rules; it is a legitimate strategy to try to get the Town to look for the

other

scum team while ignoring your partner. I also don't think it is against any rules to suggest (or admit) that the scum team can talk to each other during the Day; again, that is information that might help the Town search for the

other

(still-coordinating) scum team. Most all information (even

true

information) can be used or twisted by scum to their advantage, and so admitting to it is not necessarily against one's win condition.

[Oso]

@ICE, I want to clarify as well.

I don't think you broke the rules at all.

I was agreeing with the Edger on the ultimate results. It caused me to claim earlier in the game than I normally would.

But you didn't break any rules and I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought you did.

[ICEninja]

Fair enough. I apologize for my immaturity.

And, if someone posted the knife QT, you guys realized that I wasn't giving away info for the purpose of hurting my team. I think if Prox hadn't completely flaked, our side could have actually done reasonably well. Oso probably would have died, and probably the

only

thing I did well this entire game was distance myself from Prox. A lot of other people looked a lot more like my scum buddy than him.

Whoever (I think it was Oso) who caught my distancing on Prox was actually wrong, I wasn't upset at him in the least. I was just frustrated at the situation, and Prox was doing his best to help me out. I feigned frustration towards him to make it look like he "caught" me in something stupid. I'm surprised he got so little attention day 2, as his attacks on me were actually paper thin, and intentionally so.

[Oso]

Javert that was, I think. Prox was completely off my radar except that I was hoping to clear either him or Jerbs using this role by blocking one of the two lurkers and seeing a 2 kill night.

My personal opinion is that 90% of the people that lurk that hard, are generally disinterested town. I was wrong in both cases here but I wanted to "clear" at least one of them before the inevitable lurker hunt started. I was wrong on that too This game never reached that stage really and Prox was lynched on things unrelated to my block of him.

Which just shows me how ironic playing Mafia can be. I block someone(s) I want to clear and target 2 scum but the second scum isn't scum because I blocked him, he's scum because he flaked and we had missing night-kills.

And the irony of that is if he hadn't stopped, I would never had the chance to "not target" him because I was intentionally blocking one of the two low posters and he would have been out of that category or I would have probably been dead before I ever got to that point.

[ICEninja]

Just FYI mod, it is good form to ask permission before posting a scum QT.

[Amrun]

He did, actually.

[Amrun]

Man, scum QT's and I STILL don't know why I was night killed.

[ICEninja]

Well OK he asked for permission, but I haven't seen Prox anywhere and I never even read his request for permission, let alone give it.

[Jerbs]

I went and killed Amrun because I thought he could have been doc. I thought that Knife mafia would send in their kill on Rob/Oso, but prox flaked, so...

And I had thought that it was a normal doc

[Amrun]

Thanks for answering.

[Papa Zito]

fin.