The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Incognito]

(6:03:34 PM) patrickgower2006: if Incognito was here he'd be calling unicorn practically confirmed town
(6:03:37 PM) patrickgower2006: money in the bank
(6:03:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: Pfft.
(6:03:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Incognito.

<3 money in the bank.

[GreyICE]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... utput=html

Here's ours, marble agreed this was a good idea.

Feel free to make fun of exactly how random my reads are at any given time.

[GreyICE]

Can't post the QT because we're very smart and started another game with the hydra and... used the same QT.

[Yosarian2]

Looking back at the thread, I notice stuff like Fonz scolding me and you for "town on town fighting", Incog. Lol, that's impressive. It's really no wonder I kept reading him as town; he kept saying things that made sense, and that he would have said as town. Got to keep a closer eye on that guy next time I play with him.

Eh. I think the worst thing the town did this game was that there were these two big blocks of pro-town people fighting each other, and then at the end of every day, we'd compromise lynch someone else completly, and then go back to fighting the next day.

[Incognito]

lol. I think it was more like this big block of townies versus you and the two scums that defended you and that you also defended.

I have a question: do you still think your N1 choice for Jailkeep was the most optimal?

[Fate]

Considering all that stuff was his REALclaim and not a fakeclaim, I'd say yeah he's fine with his choices

>_>
<_<

Now what does ETHER think about Yos letting her die?

I wonder.

[Yosarian2]

I have a question: do you still think your N1 choice for Jailkeep was the most optimal?

Based on what I knew at the time? I think it was a reasonable choice. I blocked someone I thought was scum, but who hadn't been attacked in thread yet, which is pretty much optimal for roleblockers and trackers.

I really don't like the idea of trying to use a jailkeeper as a doctor to try and target people you think look town, in general, unless you REALLY think you know who the scum are going to kill that night. You'll probably just end up screwing up the cop or something.

[Fate]

Massclaim comes:

"Kailkept Ether each night"
"I'm a cop, I have no innocents Ive been blocked every night"

OK COOL YOS AND ETHER ARE CONFIRMED TOWN


Better than Ether DYING with any said innocents, and thats the offchance shes a PR.

But hey lets make a MD thread

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gah. MOS, I really thought you were town earlier, I acutally had you on my confimed town list, but then when you came out of nowhere and quickvoted me in lynch or lose for reasons that made zero sense, I decided you had to be scum. Why would you do that? You went from treating me as town to suddenly being willing to bet the whole game on me being scum, for zero reason, in a way that made no sense. The "He can't be a jailkeeper, Balam must be lying, so let's lynch Yos" argument was horrible; if the onyl way I could be scum is if Balam was lying, then lynching me instead of lynching Balam made zero sense. The only conclusion I could come to was that you were scum and were trying to get steal a sudden win.

Well, the way I saw it, it was a two-fold possibility. Either you were a mafia roleblocker, or your were scum with Balam. However, I didn't really see Balam being scum without you, since he could have just let you be lynched. Also, we didn't quickvote you. There was a fair amount of discussion before we placed our vote. It finally got to the point where I couldn't see myself changing my mind about you being scum, so we placed our vote. That was a mistake because we were wrong, but if you want to blame someone for quickvoting, look to yourselves instead. How could you completely fail to consider the numerous games where a townie has voted another townie in LYLO and the scum haven't quicklynched?

[Yosarian2]

How was I supposed to know she was going to be killed, though? She'd just pushed through a lynch on US. I was actually already planning out arguments that night to DEFEND her on day 2 against what I expected to be the inevitable attack on her, lol.

[Yosarian2]

Gah. MOS, I really thought you were town earlier, I acutally had you on my confimed town list, but then when you came out of nowhere and quickvoted me in lynch or lose for reasons that made zero sense, I decided you had to be scum. Why would you do that? You went from treating me as town to suddenly being willing to bet the whole game on me being scum, for zero reason, in a way that made no sense. The "He can't be a jailkeeper, Balam must be lying, so let's lynch Yos" argument was horrible; if the onyl way I could be scum is if Balam was lying, then lynching me instead of lynching Balam made zero sense. The only conclusion I could come to was that you were scum and were trying to get steal a sudden win.

Well, the way I saw it, it was a two-fold possibility. Either you were a mafia roleblocker, or your were scum with Balam. However, I didn't really see Balam being scum without you, since he could have just let you be lynched. Also, we didn't quickvote you. There was a fair amount of discussion before we placed our vote. It finally got to the point where I couldn't see myself changing my mind about you being scum, so we placed our vote. That was a mistake because we were wrong, but if you want to blame someone for quickvoting, look to yourselves instead. How could you completely fail to consider the numerous games where a townie has voted another townie in LYLO and the scum haven't quicklynched?

My vote for you didn't really have much to do with the vote on me, specficially. It was a combination of things. First, you ORDERED me to not protect Spot, who was then killed that night. Then you had that aweful, aweful quasi-claim of yours when it was your turn to claim, where you looked like you were about to claim doctor, then it looked like you unclaimed when realized that if you'd actually claimed roleblocked doctor it would have confirmed me as town.

You seemed to be treating me as confimred scum based on nothing, which didn't make any sense; suspicion on me before Balam claimed was completly reasonable and I expected it, but after Balam claimed and claimed he had investigated me and I showed up as jailkeeper, there was no rational grounds for suspicion on me. It would have taken the biggest, dumbest, most hair-brained and irrational gambit ever for it to have gone off like that. And even when I pointed that out, you didn't seem to care, responding with a silly "Oh, I always do that kind of gambit as scum", which was just silly. NO ONE has EVER done a "I'm going to breadcrumb that my partner is a jailkeeper, and then he's going to refuse to claim, and I'm going to threaten to hammer him, and he'll stay at lynch -1 for 24 hours, and then..." gambit, lol, and for good reason. It seemed like you were treating me as town for most of the day, you actually hammered Fate, and then all of a sudden you were treating me as scum even though Balam's claim was now confirmed by Fate's flip, and it didn't make any sense at all.

Really, it seemed like you had done a really good job at faking town, and then at lynch -1, you got greedy and irrationally went for a mislynch that didn't make any sense. That was the only conclusion I could come to based on your actions. I was actually seriously considering that Incognito might have been town and FES might have been scum, which is why I didn't take FES up on his offer, but I didn't think you could be town after that play.

[singersigner]

This game sucked.

Sorry TBM, not by fault of your own.

Good in theory. Bad in practice.

[Ether]

I think Yosarian's failure to protect me was completely outrageous.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, Ether. If you had stayed alive, the game might have been much less horrible.

[Ether]

Man, you and I both know full well what always happens to Patrick on Night 1.

[The Fonz]

Fonz

- I really wish you'd stop saying that you were playing like town. You were playing pretty much exactly like scum. I'm not going through the damn thread to explain exactly why you were scum, but you really were. The gummybear wagon cemented it. Your reaction to that was as scum as scum could be.

I really fail to see how continuing to push a lynch you were already pushing once other people start to join it is a scummy thing to do.

What really fucking bothers me about this is you're probably going to turn around next time we're in a game together and I'm town and try to make out that I'm scum for attacking a newer player who is doing something massively scummy and antitown. 'Defend all the VIs' will not always work.

@Fate: You used AGM's absence as an excuse both for posting and not posting, when the one constant was you posted when you were in trouble. Even then, that was never the crux of the case on you. It was that you were consistently voting whoever was the biggest threat to you.

[GreyICE]

Fonz

- I really wish you'd stop saying that you were playing like town. You were playing pretty much exactly like scum. I'm not going through the damn thread to explain exactly why you were scum, but you really were. The gummybear wagon cemented it. Your reaction to that was as scum as scum could be.

I really fail to see how continuing to push a lynch you were already pushing once other people start to join it is a scummy thing to do.

What really fucking bothers me about this is you're probably going to turn around next time we're in a game together and I'm town and try to make out that I'm scum for attacking a newer player who is doing something massively scummy and antitown. 'Defend all the VIs' will not always work.

I feel like I'm getting told something that is just wrong here. First, DaSpot was obvtown. Attacking them was scummy. But second, what I was discussing wasn't your push against gummybear. It was a combination of things.

1) You thought I was pushing FES very hard when I wasn't. It showed a clear lack of connection with the thread.
2) Commentary on Yos - none. If FES was town, and DaSpot was scum, Yos should have been down as a STRONG town read. But he barely showed up.
3) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2946304

Dude. A gummy wagon shows up. So basically, a wagon moves off someone you have a middling town read on and moves onto your strongest scumread and you... do nothing except more or less ignore it and comment on some stuff.

Oh gods yes you were scum thank you very much.

So get off your damn high horse. I read you correctly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It seemed like you were treating me as town for most of the day, you actually hammered Fate, and then all of a sudden you were treating me as scum even though Balam's claim was now confirmed by Fate's flip, and it didn't make any sense at all.

Really, it seemed like you had done a really good job at faking town, and then at lynch -1, you got greedy and irrationally went for a mislynch that didn't make any sense. That was the only conclusion I could come to based on your actions. I was actually seriously considering that Incognito might have been town and FES might have been scum, which is why I didn't take FES up on his offer, but I didn't think you could be town after that play.

Actually, I thought my ISO on you before Fate was lynched revealed some inconsistencies that showed we already suspected you. Primate was the one who hammered Fate, not me, and he did it without consulting me. I would not have supported that vote at that point, I would have voted you instead. That is why I tried to do damage control by coming up with a plan to keep you and Balam from having convenient result claims the next day. It's not like I came out of nowhere the next day to attack you. I had put plenty of information out there about my suspicions the day before.

If I do something irrational, it usually means that I am town. Anyone who has played a game where I was scum knows that I tend to seem a lot more reasonable when I am scum. When I am town I have a Cassandra Complex where I can never seem to convince the town that I am right (whether or not I actually am right, it still happens). Irrationality is a town tell for me, not a scum tell.

[The Fonz]

Dude. A gummy wagon shows up. So basically, a wagon moves off someone you have a middling town read on and moves onto your strongest scumread and you... do nothing except more or less ignore it and comment on some stuff.

Oh gods yes you were scum thank you very much.

So get off your damn high horse. I read you correctly.

You know that was Gurgi, right? I think i posted once between the wagon on Gummy showing up and the end of the day (to state, honestly, that I didn't see this 'change in read' you were talking about). It was the one part of the game, apart from the very beginning, when Gurgi was primary posting head.

Still. You accused us of an 'enormous change in read.' We were pushing Gummy before. We continued to push Gummy. What was inconsistent? You made out as if we no longer had Gummy as our no1 suspect or something, all because he made a post that said DaSpot's actions made him feel Gummy was scum, and commented on a couple other things.

Also, in that very post where you said 'Yos should have been a strong town read' Gurgi said 'Yos is town stop trying to lynch him.' In so many words.

[GreyICE]

Foooonnnzzzz

I don't care if it was you or Gurgi. Gawds. One thing that made this game suck was all the useless metaing going on. You were one player, your slot had one role, that role was scum.

[GreyICE]

Also... one little line is not it. You weren't playing off Yos like town does with strong town reads. You weren't interacting with them. You weren't building cases and wagons with them. You weren't treating them like town.

I mean you can type whatever, but you weren't playing as if you were both town.

[TheButtonmen]

Thoughts on the hydra aspect of the game?

As you probably gathered, we had some issues with activity. Most of our Copper games are done when we anticipate large swaths of free time, but this was done as a favor to TBM. Our play suffered accordingly. Thankfully, the scumteam still won.

Thanks for that!

[Kcdaspot]

this makes me not want to play mafia anymore.....

[GummyBear]

this makes me not want to play mafia anymore.....

[The Fonz]

Also... one little line is not it. You weren't playing off Yos like town does with strong town reads. You weren't interacting with them. You weren't building cases and wagons with them. You weren't treating them like town.

I mean you can type whatever, but you weren't playing as if you were both town.

Right. And if you'd posted 'That post does not seem to show the enthusiasm for the appearance of a Gummy wagon I would expect' you might have a point. Claiming it was a 'massive change in read' was simply false.

Also, you're accusing ME of 'not playing off' Yos, who should have been a 'strong town read' because of a 'conviction that FD was scum and FES was town.' None of those convictions could accurately be attributed to me d2. I had FES scum, FD town, and Yos neutral. It was gurgi who had FES town, Yos town, and Fate scum, and I think his handful of posts were consistent with that. I changed track on FD because we couldn't go through another day going 'Well I think FES is scum and my partner thinks he's town so we can't do anything about him," and I noticed that Fate had done everything FES was being attacked for as well.