Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[gxw]

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

[Twistedspoon]

strawmanning are we now?

pick the weakest part of my argument, attack that, and then ignore the rest.

strawmanning noted

Thanks for bringing this up, since on top of all the misreps, you decided to cherry pick my posts the exact same way as you just accused someone else of doing to you.

wrong

I quoted what, 4 quotes, from your argument.
Charlie quoted one weak point to attack and then ignored the rest.
Also this shows you're protecting him again; how delightful

and now you're setting up a better counter-wagon since you've seen your Dazzy one to be unjustifiable

personally, I welcome my lynch. Then, when I flip town, you'll know I was right all along, and will go ahead and lynch you two. Then we (town) win.
The same cannot be said for you too being scum.

You can lynch me, but when I flip town, go for these two. Then I'll be a happy chap.

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen.

Probably the worst piece of town advice I've ever read.
There are probably 100 things wrong with it
I don't even know where to start...
The town's best and only weapon is their voice, and you're trying to stop us even using that

[Twistedspoon]

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Can i just say that if someone hammers me now, instead of Charlie, the I'll flip town

Then we'll know I'm town and that scum will probably be on my wagon.

And then we'll look at my wagon, see the mafia suspects Foresti and Charlie on it and then we'll have our mafia

simples

gxw has a town read in my book by the way. I don't want you to suspect him for being on my wagon if he hammers me. Go for foresti and Charlie instead.

[Twistedspoon]

before I go or you guys hammer me, remember that If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

Sure you can counter this argument with WIFOM, but Farmerxi knows how active I was in the last game and I wan't scum. Also, unlike scum, I'm not afraid of my lynch as then you'll see that all my suspicions were townie ones, not scum ones, when I flip town.
This is why the mafia always keep me alive. I'm active. Therefore I post a lot, therefore there are more chances for me to slip up.

anyaways, I claim Vanilla townie. no fancy roles.
If you choose to believe me or not, that's your choice. I can't force you to believe I'm town, and I won't blame any of you for hammering me.
It's your choice. never forget that the town's greatest weapon is their voice. Let it be heard.

~Twistedspoon

[Forseti]

gxw: TS is L-2, Dazzy unvoted. And anyway, you're one of the votes already on him.

TS... I don't even know where to start.

Basically, you just ignored every other part of MY post to say that I FALSELY accused of you of strawmanning (oh the humanity), then, on top of all the misreps I pointed out and you ignored, you follow that up by cherry picking ONE LINE of my post, utterly out of context (and I'm still falsely accusing you of strawmanning, OH THE HUMANITY), and misrep me AGAIN.

Did you really not understand the point I was making when I said that? Because I'm seriously starting to doubt your reading comprehension skills at this point, my words thus far have been so twisted by you I could take 'em and use 'em as a corkscrew.

Seriously, wow.

Preview edit: Oh, and now you're coming with the early claims and appeals. Good for you.

[Mute]

Okay, first things first:
Reaffirming that one's status as SE or IC does not exclude them from being scum. To believe that in a newbie game a player that's an SE or IC is instantly town is folly. Ghostlin was in my first newbie game here (or rather subbed in) and he can attest to it; my first game here as a newbie the SE was scum. For future games in the newbie queue keep that in mind, as well as in other game queues that experience does not matter what one's role will be.

Why did you ask someone how they felt about their role? This is as good as rolefishing, which you have just said is a bad thing.

As I said before, it was part of a RQS, which is used to generate discussion. The answers don't really matter, the reactions of other people to them do. Reactions are gold, and that is what I was trying to achieve. It has exceeded my expectations because the reactions I got were strong ones; logical ones, and were all suspicion of myself. This is a trifecta!

So, one of the reactions you were aiming to get was conversation rolling, and one method of doing that was to portray yourself of being suspicious; am I right? This is what I assume to be what your expectations were and if I'm incorrect please do correct me. It's a sound enough of a strategy I'd suppose, but I still don't entirely like it.
But, the answers do matter, I should like to think. Sure not as much as reactions, but to a degree. Consider this a difference of opinion though.

@Mute: Some answers are already covered in the above. As for these:

This I don't know how to interpret correctly. My brain's giving me a few options.
1) I am actually going to be busy so please don't lynch me before I can defend myself.
2) I'm going to use the "I won't be here much" for an excuse to stall the wagon on me because town's caught me.
3) (an extension/alternative to two) I'm gonna now go hide in the corner and watch what you all do because I wanna see how my actions affect town.

I think you're over-thinking. I'm just saying that I'm not going to be active like 10 posts a day; more like 1 post a day or 1 post in 2 days.

Over-thinking and over-analyzing are traits of mine. Whether they are good or not is never initially easy to determine. But you make sense, and my initial read of your post was right. Anyways, while I'm still going to keep an eye on you I think it's better to not let scum quick-hammer, so:

Unvote

.

Now, TS, you've caught my eye with something:
(Saw others post in preview, so will expand in next post on this)

[Mute]

Case cracked:

scum are almost definitely Charlie and Forest
We can't lynch these two fast enough

and

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion: Dazzy and Charlie are the scum 99% sure; case solved.
gg guys

Do you think that, by page 5, you've caught scum? You've just flat-out called three people scum in a game of two-scum-versus-7-town. This overconfidence you've got with your accusations is what gets me most.

strawmanning are we now?

pick the weakest part of my argument, attack that, and then ignore the rest.

strawmanning noted

Thanks for bringing this up, since on top of all the misreps, you decided to cherry pick my posts the exact same way as you just accused someone else of doing to you.

wrong

I quoted what, 4 quotes, from your argument.
Charlie quoted one weak point to attack and then ignored the rest.
Also this shows you're protecting him again; how delightful

"Hey guys I have a lot more stuff written compared to others so I'm town for it and they're scum lets lynch 'em guys!!"
Quality > Quantity.
You can argue "hey he only chose certain points of mine to counter he's scum guys!!" You cant realistically expect every point brought up by one person to another to be recognized. Sure it makes the person defending themself seem more town but there isn't anything specifically scummy about choosing which arguments you wish to counter.

and now you're setting up a better counter-wagon since you've seen your Dazzy one to be unjustifiable

personally, I welcome my lynch. Then, when I flip town, you'll know I was right all along, and will go ahead and lynch you two. Then we (town) win.
The same cannot be said for you too being scum.

You can lynch me, but when I flip town, go for these two. Then I'll be a happy chap.

So, at L-2, you're soft-claiming town.. uh huuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh
Lemme ask you a hypothetical question, unless you are scum how can you be so confident in the alignment of others?

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen.

Probably the worst piece of town advice I've ever read.
There are probably 100 things wrong with it
I don't even know where to start...
The town's best and only weapon is their voice, and you're trying to stop us even using that

I think you missed the point he was making. For the sake of others I'll provide the context.

Again. If you’re going to misrep, do a better job.

I don't care how the case was phrased.
What matters is that Charlie dodged the questions which show he is scum. Double the reason to suspect him, and now you for protecting him.

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen. Obviously, it’s far more protown to let a lynch you don’t like go through without a single objection than it is to point out why you don’t like the case.

Also, good to know you’ll push the hell out of a careless case to get a lynch, noted.

Why bold the point Forseti made? It stands out. You're taking flimsy things and overinflating them. You've quoted someone without giving the context and misinterpreting their post. If you were pro-town you would have quoted the entirety of Forseti's post, not just pick out what parts you wanted to address and cut the rest out, something you're willing to lynch Charlie over.

Lastly:

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Can i just say that if someone hammers me now, instead of Charlie, the I'll flip town

Then we'll know I'm town and that scum will probably be on my wagon.

And then we'll look at my wagon, see the mafia suspects Foresti and Charlie on it and then we'll have our mafia

simples

gxw has a town read in my book by the way. I don't want you to suspect him for being on my wagon if he hammers me. Go for foresti and Charlie instead.

and

before I go or you guys hammer me, remember that If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

Sure you can counter this argument with WIFOM, but Farmerxi knows how active I was in the last game and I wan't scum. Also, unlike scum, I'm not afraid of my lynch as then you'll see that all my suspicions were townie ones, not scum ones, when I flip town.
This is why the mafia always keep me alive. I'm active. Therefore I post a lot, therefore there are more chances for me to slip up.

anyaways, I claim Vanilla townie. no fancy roles.
If you choose to believe me or not, that's your choice. I can't force you to believe I'm town, and I won't blame any of you for hammering me.
It's your choice. never forget that the town's greatest weapon is their voice. Let it be heard.

~Twistedspoon

So now you're flat out role-claiming VT and are both appealing to ______ and sprinkling your case against Charlie/Forseti and defending yourself with a case of WIFOM? Again you claim Charlie/Forset to be scum, damning them without accepting their ability to defend themselves by saying "if I'm lynched they are scum" with your first quote, then giving a

single

town-read on one player.
Question: What is your opinion of all of the players i.e. who do you think is town and who do you think is scum?

Also in your second quote you claim that a townie's voice is their best weapon, but you mention your own activity and use that to defend yourself with:

If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

How can you swing so far from one end of the spectrum to another within a single post? By that I mean how can you say that a townie's voice is their best weapon, and yet be apprehensive to use it, unless you're scum and are worried you'll be caught slipping?
This is flailing, and given the claim of yours at an L-2 scenario, I'm more comfortable now with you being lynched D1.

Vote: TwistedSpoon

This is L-1.

[Dazzy]

Wow, lots of stuff going on since my last post. We have Charli giving us some responses, Forseti fighting against what he feel is a mis-lynch, and TS going freaking insane.

This post will not be completely comprehensive, I'd like to take a bit of time to organise my thoughts, but lets start with some basics.

@TS, I was actually feeling a lot better about your alignment, but now you've just thrown me off again. Your intense flailing and "100% sure" accusations are really not giving me a town read on you.

@ Forseti: Your suspicion is noted, and at this point all I can really do is reiterate what I said before: I leave my vote on the person I find most suspicious. At that point it was TS, but Charlie raied some flags. I asked Charlie questions, which would determine whether I would switch my vote. He answered poorly, others voted where I would have if given the chance, I do not want to hammer him at this point. Take from this what you will.

On that note: @ Charlie, my vote on TS was not a random one. You'll note that I developed a case on him and subsequently voted based on those points. He remained my #1 scum until your question dodging post. Now, in regards to your post. You've made a decent response, but I have a question. You've said that your questions have provided you with information that "exceeded expectations". Mind sharing what that information is with the rest of us? You're taking what I'd like to call the Jedi approach: "Trust me, I'm a good guy with a plan. You can know about the results whenever I decide I feel like it." Don't appreciate that.

As a last note, WTF is going on with all of these people screwing up vote counts...

Be back later. Let's avoid hammering anyone right now.

Cheers.

[Twistedspoon]

you guys will regret letting our leads go cold.
Advantage mafia. ¬_¬

back to square 1

Question: What is your opinion of all of the players i.e. who do you think is town and who do you think is scum?

Nice simple question. My opinions

Foresti: mafia
Charlie: mafia
mute: unsure. Leaning town
Dazzy: town
Farmer: null
gxw: town
Ghostlin: town
Dazzy: unsure. Probably town
King: null

[KingTwelveSixteen]

NOTE: due to heading to a movie this post will use the draft I saved from earlier in the day. Just thought I'd mention that.
NOTE THE SECOND: Long post is

long.

...

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being done that blatantly.

I don't care how blatantly it was. That is irrelevant.

Rolefishing is a very scummy thing to do, and Charlie has failed to justify this

That isn't irrelevent, when he says that it seems to blatant he is saying that it is, ah, what was the phrase? "Too scummy to be scum"? Something like that. Incidentally, "too scummy to be scum" seems like a scummy argument to me. The fact that you ignore at least two actual reasons to dislike Forseti's statement to bring up a fake one makes it seem like you are just making up reasons instead of scumhunting. Scummy.

...
Foresti does and he's using this argument to protect scum partner Charlie
It seems you're trying to defend Charlie a little too much here.
If Forseti and Charlie turn out to be the mafia, you guys owe me a medal
...

Case cracked:

scum are almost definitely Charlie and Forest
We can't lynch these two fast enough

Thats incredibly overconfident of you.

Either he made one reckless move, in which case you've been as reckless, if not more so, or what you did wasn't all that reckless, and if yours wasn't, his CERTAINLY wasn't given that TS was further away from a lynch than Charlie is.

So assuming, you're townie, then one possible townie has now a higher chance of being lynched than another possible townie. So what's the problem, unless you know that one isn't townie, and therfore a a scum buddy.

I have no idea what you are saying here at all, or how it relates to the point being quoted.

...
Personally, If Charlie is mafia then We're giving him a chance to wriggle free and lose out hottest lead. If he doesn't have the best defence than ever before in mafia we need to hammer him.
...
Foresti, your post was scummy up till now, but now it's hilariously scummy.

You vote Dazzy without even mentioning why. you seem to think 'Oh and also' explains your vote.
You're trying to get a counter-wagon going here to protect your scumbuddy charlie. This is obvious. Especially because you didn't give a reason.

Quite lynch-happy, arn't you?
He totally explained his vote and gave a reason. Major misrep there.

...
Reactions are gold, and that is what I was trying to achieve. It has exceeded my expectations because the reactions I got were strong ones; logical ones, and were all suspicion of myself. This is a trifecta!

You were trying to get people to think you are scummy? ...Why?

...

I just noticed the bolded part. Why did you bring up LyLo here Charlie?

Why not, I don't see any inconsistency in that statement.

That question had nothing to do with inconsistency, it had to do with you bringing up how you act in LyLo on day one when it seemingly had nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Interesting to note that Twistedspoon was the lead wagon and he does not hesitate to complete a counterwagon.

hahaha

At least I provided reasons (and good ones at that) unlike your friend foresti who randomly started a Dazzy counter-wagon to protect you. And then you did what is every townie's dream and both of you have now protected each other

Every townies dream? What? And Forseti DID provide reasons. Oh, you also didn't answer Charlie's point, instead you just said he was scummy.

whereas Forseti has not voted at all!

How irrelevant. But it confirms that you and Foresti are both mafia as you've both protected each other. You've rolefished and after dodging questions have tried to shrug it off.
Foesti protected charlie
Charlie protected foresti

How does that confirm them as scumbuddies? It just confirms them as defending each other, which town can do. Also, the quoted thing doesn't seem to have anything to do with protecting Forseti. At all. Misrep again.

...
Gxw (or another townie), If you want to hammer Charlie then go for it. He's trying to confuse you with his fancy IC talk. If he flips scum (which seems incredibly likely), then you're our hero.

FAR to lynch happy here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tl;dr (Foresti Case)

Foresti is defending charlie too much, Approves of role-fishing, showed his scum alliance and trying to build an unjustified counter-wagon on Dazzy to protect Charlie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion: Dazzy and Charlie are the scum 99% sure; case solved.
gg guys

In random order:
1. Forseti justified his vote on Dazzy.
2. 99% sure is far to much for day 1. Or pretty much any day actually.
3. Defending =/= scumbuddies.
4. When did he approve of role-fishing?
5. "showed his scum alliance" would only be accurate after one of them flipped scum.
6. Your case is entirely based on Charlie being scum, and we do not know for sure if he is.

strawmanning are we now?

pick the weakest part of my argument, attack that, and then ignore the rest.

strawmanning noted

Hypocrisy and not actually countering the point he made noted.

Claim, Charlie.
...

You gonna hammer him?

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Both?

Also, no mention of why you are changing from looking like you are gonna hammer Charlie to hammerin' TS. IGMEOY.

...
wrong

I quoted what, 4 quotes, from your argument.
Charlie quoted one weak point to attack and then ignored the rest.
Also this shows you're protecting him again; how delightful

You quoted out of context on his Dazzy case, and I'm not gonna look back and point out any other times you did it because this post is already too long.
Protecting =/= scumbuddies, no flip yet, ect.

and now you're setting up a better counter-wagon since you've seen your Dazzy one to be unjustifiable

He totally justified it. Seriously.

personally, I welcome my lynch. Then, when I flip town, you'll know I was right all along, and will go ahead and lynch you two. Then we (town) win.
The same cannot be said for you too being scum.

You can lynch me, but when I flip town, go for these two. Then I'll be a happy chap.

Noooooo. You being town doesn't make your argument correct and welcoming your own lynch isn't a very good way to win the game, as town or as scum. AtE, I believe.

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen.

Probably the worst piece of town advice I've ever read.
There are probably 100 things wrong with it
I don't even know where to start...
The town's best and only weapon is their voice, and you're trying to stop us even using that

That was so obviously a sarcastic counter about how you say its scummy that he defended Charlie. Big misrep again.

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Can i just say that if someone hammers me now, instead of Charlie, the I'll flip town

Then we'll know I'm town and that scum will probably be on my wagon.

And then we'll look at my wagon, see the mafia suspects Foresti and Charlie on it and then we'll have our mafia

simples

gxw has a town read in my book by the way. I don't want you to suspect him for being on my wagon if he hammers me. Go for foresti and Charlie instead.

Guh, everything about this is suspicious or wrong. AtE, defending somebody

hammering

you? You being town doesn't mean your arguments are correct.

before I go or you guys hammer me, remember that If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

Sure you can counter this argument with WIFOM

, but Farmerxi knows how active I was in the last game and I wan't scum. Also, unlike scum, I'm not afraid of my lynch as then you'll see that all my suspicions were townie ones, not scum ones, when I flip town.
This is why the mafia always keep me alive. I'm active. Therefore I post a lot, therefore there are more chances for me to slip up.

anyaways, I claim Vanilla townie. no fancy roles.
If you choose to believe me or not, that's your choice. I can't force you to believe I'm town, and I won't blame any of you for hammering me.
It's your choice. never forget that the town's greatest weapon is their voice. Let it be heard.

~Twistedspoon

WIFOM.
Claiming meta as a defense isn't very effective, because you can easily change how you play if you are aware of your meta, which you obviously are.
AtE some more.

...
So, one of the reactions you were aiming to get was conversation rolling, and one method of doing that was to portray yourself of being suspicious; am I right? This is what I assume to be what your expectations were and if I'm incorrect please do correct me. It's a sound enough of a strategy I'd suppose, but I still don't entirely like it.
...

"Sound?" Thats a strange way to say suicidal.

... Let's avoid hammering anyone right now.
...

Agreed.

-----------------------------

Ok, I think thats everything. For now I'm gonna

Unvote
Double-FoS: TS
FoS: gxw

and this time I'm much more certain that the person I am most suspicious of and not voting because of wagon size is at L-1 instead of L-2. Probably.

[Twistedspoon]

He totally justified it. Seriously.

no. He just randomly voted Dazzy.
There is no case against Dazzy.

What reasons are there that Dazzy is scum?

anyawys, any direct questions before I go to bed?
If you lynch me and I flip town while I'm asleep remember who was on my wagon.

Oh, and I'm giving king a town read, since if he was mafia he would probably would have hammered and rid us of a townie.

[Forseti]

So, BASICALLY, all you're going to do is ignore every single valid point made against you by multiple people, and perpetuate things that are either outright falsehoods or proof that you don't actually read the thread to justify your "99% sure scumreads".

no. He just randomly voted Dazzy.
There is no case against Dazzy.

What reasons are there that Dazzy is scum?

Funny how my justification for a Dazzy vote (which apparently doesn't exist) was noticed by Dazzy, quoted by him, argued again by me, and countered again by him, and noticed by multiple other people also.

[Twistedspoon]

^omgus?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

He totally justified it. Seriously.

no. He just randomly voted Dazzy.
There is no case against Dazzy.

What reasons are there that Dazzy is scum?

...

Vote: Dazzy

Wiith Charlie at L-2, he basically threw up a post (#60) that read to ME like he wanted to throw more weight at the pressure on Charlie (who at this time was L-2) without ACTUALLY voting or even referencing the possiblity of voting, not to mention the way he backed up part of it by referencing how the SE players saw things the way he did. They both voted for Charlie, Dazzy did not, mixing a little buddying in there along with trying to push a Charlie lynch along while maintaining the ability to say he didn't vote for the guy were he to flip town.
...

Hey look, a case against Dazzy, made by Forseti. Shocking.

Oh, and I'm giving king a town read, since if he was mafia he would probably would have hammered and rid us of a townie.

FYI, I am inches away from hammering you. And changing my read to town from null is a pretty scummy way to try and get me to not hammer.

[Twistedspoon]

FYI, I am inches away from hammering you. And changing my read to town from null is a pretty scummy way to try and get me to not hammer.

no, it's that if you were scum you would have already hammered and been one less townie better off

I'm not trying to buddy; it's a fact that you would have hammered if mafia

[Twistedspoon]

alright, I missed the case on dazzy then; I was in a rush
I'm sorry

[KingTwelveSixteen]

FYI, I am inches away from hammering you. And changing my read to town from null is a pretty scummy way to try and get me to not hammer.

no, it's that if you were scum you would have already hammered and been one less townie better off

I'm not trying to buddy; it's a fact that you would have hammered if mafia

How many times, exactly, has it been stated that it is bad for mafia to quicklynch out of LyLo so far? 'Cause I'm pretty sure it was somewhere between "plenty" and "a lot".
I do not believe your town read on me was caused by that, as a good reason for me as scum to not hammer you would be that I would be totally exposed as scum. You don't seem to consider this a possibility, even though it has been repeatedly stated by several different people to be the case,

including me

, and it is most assuredly not "fact" that mafia would hammer you.

alright, I missed the case on dazzy then; I was in a rush
I'm sorry

You also ignored people saying you missed the case at least 3 times, just from memory.

[Twistedspoon]

You also ignored people saying you missed the case at least 3 times, just from memory.

fine, like I say i was in a rush

If no-one's hammering or asking questions then what's the next step?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Here is the 3 places where you ignored people saying that Forseti had an argument, I actually expected more times then this but apparently only me and Forseti himself noticed.
And a 1

...

Foresti, your post was scummy up till now, but now it's hilariously scummy.

You vote Dazzy without even mentioning why. you seem to think 'Oh and also' explains your vote.
You're trying to get a counter-wagon going here to protect your scumbuddy charlie. This is obvious. Especially because you didn't give a reason.

Oh, never mind. I’ve figured it out now. YOU JUST DON’T READ POSTS. Apparently, you didn’t read mine, nor did you read Dazzy’s post WHERE HE REFERENCED THE REASONS FOR THE VOTE I PUT ON HIM.
...

Lets just refer to this one as "2"

...
He totally explained his vote and gave a reason. Major misrep there.
...
And Forseti DID provide reasons.
...
1. Forseti justified his vote on Dazzy.
...
You quoted out of context on his Dazzy case,
...
He totally justified it. Seriously.
...

Here be number 3

...
Funny how my justification for a Dazzy vote (which apparently doesn't exist) was noticed by Dazzy, quoted by him, argued again by me, and countered again by him, and noticed by multiple other people also.

And then 4 is the one where I directly quoted the case.

-------------

You also ignored people saying you missed the case at least 3 times, just from memory.

fine, like I say i was in a rush

If no-one's hammering or asking questions then what's the next step?

You should at least check to see if your accusation is correct when people say it isn't, especially since its been a while since Forseti first called you out on it in ALL CAPS. And, oh yeah? Rushing a lynch is scummy.

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.


Oh, and the reason I have switched from "I agree with no lynching immediatly" to "lynch TS" is because he ignored like 3/4 of my entire giant argument, then said that there was no Dazzy case to counter the other 1/4, which is a flat-out lie, and His explanations for "not looking back and checking" don't jive with me. If he was in a rush he wouldn't have had the time to continue arguing and whatnot for like 6 hours after the original statement of "I have a case on Dazzy" was made, and he wouldn't continue being "in a rush" whilst simultaneously posting regularly in the thread for so long. If he was in a rush he would have made one post and then been unable to make more.

[Forseti]

@KingTwelveSixteen

I think it would be prudent to give some of the guys that haven't posted in a while to post before hammering. Im okay TS going, however, I'd like to see some comment on all of this from the likes of Ghostlin, Farmerixi and gxw (who, let's face it, has only really posted in the last couple of days to talk about how he wants to hammer people).

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@KingTwelveSixteen

I think it would be prudent to give some of the guys that haven't posted in a while to post before hammering. Im okay TS going, however, I'd like to see some comment on all of this from the likes of Ghostlin, Farmerixi and gxw (who, let's face it, has only really posted in the last couple of days to talk about how he wants to hammer people).

...Ok, thats a really good point. I was only really thinking about how scummy TS was and if it warrented me hammering him, I didn't even consider letting him live to get info from the other guys who havn't said anything about him yet.

You get to live TS...for now.

[gxw]

Well now I REALLY want to hammer TS, but I just realized that I already have a vote on him :/ That's pretty much all i have to say...

[Ghostlin]

My thoughts, in no particular order:

Generic:

1) Put away your itchy hammer fingers. That's not worth it. Also, if you are town, DO NOT self-vote, OR self-hammer. It's an antitown play and helps no one. I have to say this because we're on our second wagon at L-1 today and one of you might get weirdly suicidal on me. (I've had townies do it before.)

2) Ignore the fact that we're SEs/ICs when you make your cases as much as possible. Regardless of the role assigned, I play to win, I expect Charlie to, and I expect Mute to. Yes, I'm here to have fun, but winning is important.

My reads:

Mute:

Has gotten a lot better at this. He reads very town to me. Who do you like better, Charlie or TS for lynch if right now was the deadline and they were both at L-1? Why?

TS:

Whoa, turbo. A few questions for you:

1) Is it possible that Foresti and Charlie could be defending each other's points outside of scum buddies?
2) Why would you be comfortable with a hammer on Day 1, Page 5? Explain in detail.
3) Do you always make connections this soon in games?
4) If Charlie was scum, do you think his buddy might throw him under the bus and distance at L-1 instead of buddying up to him?

You're leaning scum because you're trying too hard. You're eager for a lynch right now when we need to gather information. I'm not comfortable with telegraphing a Foresti/Charlie scum pair, and lynching them right this second to endgame. Let your brain engage and stop trying to impress us.

Charlie:

Were you aware that the question you asked might be taken as rolefishing? If so, why did you ask it? You've not given me a lot to say you're a victim of misunderstanding.

GXW:

Tell me. What do you think of TS and Charlie right now? If one of them's scum, do you think they both might be? Why or why not?
Also, answer the question I gave Mute.
Nulltell: your last two posts don't betray you're thinking. You did follow orders and didn't hammer, tho'.

King Twelvesixteen:

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

I don't like this. We're trying to stop people from quickhammering, you accuse TS of being overzealous of it, and the next breath you say you're willing to do that, and it's mostly because he blew off your arguments. It reads contradictory, which reads scummy, because scum like quickhammers. They don't mind accusing others of what they could be responsible of with a 'well, he was going to do it!' You went from null leaning town to null leaning scum here.

Here's what'd I'd ask of you. Lay out your TS case, point by point. If you have ISO him, do it. Give us analysis of what you find scummy most versus someone of the other townsfolk.

Foresti:

I see you defending Charlie. Give me your reasoning why Charlie is obviously a town read for you. True null (slight town lean due to suspecting someone not one of the main suspects). Charlie or TS flipping town or scum might throw this one way or another depending on future behavior.

Dazzy:

I'd like your scum reads with a short explanation as to why. I don't pick up anything scummy from you, and you're reading town. New town, but very obviously town.

FarmeriXi:

Can't get a good read on you. What do you think of all this?

[Ghostlin]

Lynches I would not mind ATM:

Charlie, TS. King 1216.

Would not lynch unless it was seconds to Day 1 being over:

Mute, Dazzy

[Forseti]

@Ghostlin

A few things.

The speed with which the wagon built up was a major factor, for one thing. I could tie that into my off-site experience, perhaps. Where I usually play, day one wagons on scum tend to be a lot slower to build up and a lot harder to get over the finish line, so a very quick wagon with someone declaring hammer-intent on someone tends to be something that sets off alarm bells in my head.

Secondly, as I've already stated, I could see where Charlie could look like he was role-fishing... but my immediate instinct about the questions when I saw them was that they were reaction-bait, it felt to me like he was throwing hooks in the water to see if something snapped on it.

I wasn't thrilled by KingTwelveSixteen's vote, I said why, and I still disagree with his rebuttal.

Dazzy's post, any my resulting vote ended up discussed to death (Or ignored to death, pick your preference). I was satisfied with his responses to an extent, and recognised that an error in my vote-counting contributed to my read. As it is, I'm leaning town on him now, but that would switch were Charlie to be lynched and flip town.

The TS vote... I still think that was OMGUS couched in hazy reasoning as I said at the time, and not TS's first (or last) exhibiting of it, and after the recent interactions, I feel he's a far better lynch than Charlie at this point for a variety of reasons.

My read on Charlie, as it stands, is leaning town, and most of that has little to actually do with his own play as it is the way that people have reacted to him and tried to push the wagon on him over the line. As such, it's a read that's subject to change, but it would need a stronger case than currently has been put forth.