Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[Twistedspoon]

Call it gut if you will,

gut

[Twistedspoon]

Charlie's wagoning noted

However, TS is still the most suspicious of the lot (if only for lack of much activity so far)

a good point

my active self is clearly being suspiciously over-active. Do you guys want me to be less active? that seems oddly anti-town though

I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.
So for the good of the town let's move onto alternatives

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
And it seems to me that he reacted badly to it, HoSing me, making a considerably substantial post about it, and calling it "very scummish".

That's why I voted for him
...
A lack of reactions to my post are results too.

He can't have both a lack of reaction and a bad reaction to it with substantial posting simultaneously.

[Mute]

Not liking the wagon on TS at all. His early game behavior was over eager to say the least but it felt town motivated.

Vote: Charlie

Scum over-inflating a weak issue, and I don't like this question of your's Charlie.

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

Dazzy's response?

@ Charlie

I find your question to be a bit loaded. Giving my deep reaction to my role PM would most likely be as good as a role claim to an experienced player, and so I will not go any further than to say that I was genuinely excited to begin my first game of Mafia. Hopefully this game will continue to get more interesting as more people post their own thoughts.

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

[Mute]

On another note, since I saw others give their time zones, I dont know what my -# xxx is, but I live in New Jersey so I have an EST time.

[Ghostlin]

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

I don't like this question and I just got it pointed out to me. This seems borderline role fishing: because while people are usually excited for game start, certain roles pique interest more than others.

However, I'm going to stop and use this like a learning tool:

Rule 3 or 4 about Mafia: You usually do not want to reveal (you may hint, but you better know what you're doing) your role before one of the following: mass claim at lylo, when you're about to be lynched (L-1), or you are aware of who the last scum is and can lynch them easily. There are other times you may feel like you want to claim, but it's best not to volunteer it outside of those times.

Hmm, interesting indeed. What do you say if I tell you that I think that you were told to do that in your Mafia Night-talk? (Night 0, or pre-game)

This might be an OK baited scum hunting question: but it might hide a bus underneath it, or very least a wagon. It's sufficiently loaded so regardless of the response, the person who answers it looks scummy. Also, the only one who knows about any contents of the Scum QT...is scum.

Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so.

Vote: Charlie

[Forseti]

On another note, since I saw others give their time zones, I dont know what my -# xxx is, but I live in New Jersey so I have an EST time.

Same as me, then, -5. I'm now in NJ myself.

Other than that, I wish to wait on Charlie posting again before adding comments on the subject.

[Dazzy]

Hello everyone, just jumping in here before my math test to adress TS's last post, felt important.

my active self is clearly being suspiciously over-active. Do you guys want me to be less active? that seems oddly anti-town though

I never said that your activity made you suspicious. In fact, it's a large part of what is lessening my suspicion on you. Please don't slow down.

I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.

I reiterate: don't slow down -

help

us find alternatives to our "tunneling" so that we will have alternate suspects if/when we drop you as suspect. That to me is the most pro-town thing you could do.

I'll be back after my test with analysis on some of the other posts. Just wanted to jump in on that post. Wish me luck

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vote Count 1.3

Twistedspoon - 3 (gxw, Dazzy, Charlie)
gxw - 1 (KingTwelveSixteen)
Charlie - 2 (Mute, Ghostlin)

Not Voting - 3 (FarmeriXi, Forseti, Twistedspoon)

5 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[gxw]

...
And it seems to me that he reacted badly to it, HoSing me, making a considerably substantial post about it, and calling it "very scummish".

That's why I voted for him
...
A lack of reactions to my post are results too.

He can't have both a lack of reaction and a bad reaction to it with substantial posting simultaneously.

No, no, no. I ment the other people who didn't even acknowledge my post are results too, not just those who responded to my post.

[Dazzy]

Hello again everyone. The math test is over, and it did not go well... I really dislike roots and trig, and I especially dislike it when I can't remember which roots are trig in disguise. Then I have to integrate them... Bleh. Anywho, onto something more interesting than my epic fails.

FoS'ing isn't a scumtell, but Double RVS voting is.

Mmm, I don't agree with this and you've said things which you cannot prove, like "you're almost certain". Anyway, the whole post strikes me a bit odd. Call it gut if you will, but I believe this is deserving of a vote.
VOTE: Twistedspoon

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

@ Charlie: Do you realise that your entire case (if you can call it that) against TS is contained in those ~3 lines above? Nowhere else have you expressed any suspicion of him in this thread. I find it extremely odd that an IC who says

...
I'm the kind of player who'll much prefer a "wait and see" approach before forming an opinion. It's a playstyle that some aren't comfortable with, but it works pretty okay for me.
...

Would jump to voting on a gut feeling almost two days after the post in question (where the quote in your above post was taken from). Does a disagreement on scumtell interpretation necessitate a vote from you? Also, you are somewhat misquoting TS, possibly in an attempt to add a smidgen of basis to your vote. He said that the town was "almost certain" that a player

in another game he was playing

was scum based on a multi-RVS.

Add to that what appears to be a pretty solid attempt at role-fishing with your question to me, and your repeated "no win" questions, and I'm getting a bit of a scummy read on you.

Not liking the wagon on TS at all. His early game behavior was over eager to say the least but it felt town motivated.

Vote: Charlie

Scum over-inflating a weak issue, and I don't like this question of your's Charlie.

@Dazzy: Random question for you; how did you feel when you got your Role PM?

...
Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

...
I don't like this question and I just got it pointed out to me. This seems borderline role fishing: because while people are usually excited for game start, certain roles pique interest more than others.
...

This might be an OK baited scum hunting question: but it might hide a bus underneath it, or very least a wagon. It's sufficiently loaded so regardless of the response, the person who answers it looks scummy. Also, the only one who knows about any contents of the Scum QT...is scum.

Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so.

Vote: Charlie

Obviously the more experienced SE's seem to be thinking along the same lines as me...

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

What the heck is this? How can you promote a cautious approach to someone you just recklessly voted on?

Your last post as a whole seems to me like a scum bandwagoning and then trying to cover it with some IC pro-town advice. Can you give us a bit more substance on your vote please?

What does everyone else think, not only of Charlie/TS, but in general? Moar opinions please

[Dazzy]

EBWOP: The post of TS's Charlie referred to was only 1 day before his post. Apologies.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
What does everyone else think, not only of Charlie/TS, but in general? Moar opinions please

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so

Unvote

until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.
So for the good of the town let's move onto alternatives

Telling people not to vote for you because they are all tunneling, not giving any alternatives, and a general "don't vote for me, just because" type thing make this post scummy.

FarmeriXi self-voted first post, though he did unvote in the same post, I have seen scum do that in a game and he got killed for it so apparently scum do that sometimes for some reason. He also acted all wierd and nonsensical, and has yet to post a serious type post with serious type reads, so I give neutral-scum read to him. So yeah, talk some more FarmeriXi.

[Ghostlin]

One thing I've noticed with all the discussion about tunnelling: it's page 3. It's a bit early to accuse people on tunnelling, because first impressions of some of the first things said in this game will develop into votes and cases. In other words, wagoning is one of the ways to end a RVS, along with traps and word play. Tunnelling only becomes important, (and like OMGUS voting, is only so-so for a scum tell) later in the game when there are obvious other targets in front of you and you will NOT talk about them AT ALL, or your reasoning for continuing a case on someone is so ludicrous the other players find you're being silly.

[Twistedspoon]

us find alternatives to our "tunneling" so that we will have alternate suspects if/when we drop you as suspect. That to me is the most pro-town thing you could do.

yep, you pass the test daz. I was never really going to 'slow down.' How anti-town would that be?

anyways, I'll catch up with the rest of the thread and post hopefully tonight

[Twistedspoon]

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

What the heck is this? How can you promote a cautious approach to someone you just recklessly voted on?

this is so true.
When you vote for someone you're in favour of their lynch, yet Charlie seems to be making his wagoning seem dilute and pro-town by not wanting a 'premature lynch' even though he voted on a 'gut feeling'

That and Charlie's role-fishing post make me very suspicious.

I have noted them and will be sure not to forget them later in the game.

I'll wait for Charlie's response before voting and such though.

FarmeriXi self-voted first post, though he did unvote in the same post, I have seen scum do that in a game and he got killed for it so apparently scum do that sometimes for some reason.

Scum sometimes do it to make them seem impartial or town or not caring if they're lynched and thus not mafia.
However I'll reserve judgement on farmer until later on. I don't think he's the type to scumslip in post one.
null read

[FarmeriXi]

Thanks to RL I haven't had alot of time to keep up as I normally would this week. Timezone GMT-6:00 CST (US).

On to more serious matters. I've read aloth of mish-mash to this point. Not far enough along to consider any really scummy actions. The whole TS/GXW scum test did not amount to much to me. I've played with TS before and feel that it was reaction to a different play style. GXW on the other hand, I have seen such an opening post in other Witch Hunt(halloween mafia) games from my MMO clan website. Nothing extremely alarming there. On the TS/Charlie ordeal, I agree with Ghostlin, I do not think tunneling is any real issue atm. It is page 3 and it could form, but it's a little early. There is however one issue I will address with the situation in closing.

i have notived a few stand-outish remarks and posts, and some of the voting is beginning to form up so I will be taking some serious notes about game actions.

As for my closing. Charlie seems to be playing similar to a SE I just played with in my first ever game here. Turns out that player was a townie so I don't want to be too quick to go for or against Charlie. I do however want to ask,

----------------------------------
Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so

Unvote

until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)
----------------------------------
FarmeriXi self-voted first post, though he did unvote in the same post, I have seen scum do that in a game and he got killed for it so apparently scum do that sometimes for some reason. He also acted all wierd and nonsensical, and has yet to post a serious type post with serious type reads, so I give neutral-scum read to him. So yeah, talk some more FarmeriXi.

@King: Why did you not go ahead and vote for Charlie, you said you "probably" would. I don't understand why you didn't after giving your reasons for thinking Charlie is scum. Is it that you don't want to seem like scum for putting a late vote on Charlie?

Yes, this could be scum talk. Waiting to see if more votes go Charlie's way and yes it could be townie, bc you don't want to be the reason Charlie winds up at L-1 or lynch "if" the real scum vote him afterwards. Personally I find it as scummy, too so easily accept an explanation from GXW then jump on the Charlie wagon without adding any real thoughts of your own about the "contradictions". If you had just voted Charlie or not told your move it wouldn't have stood out so.

Vote: KingTwelveSixteen

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@King: Why did you not go ahead and vote for Charlie, you said you "probably" would. I don't understand why you didn't after giving your reasons for thinking Charlie is scum. Is it that you don't want to seem like scum for putting a late vote on Charlie?

Yes, this could be scum talk. Waiting to see if more votes go Charlie's way and yes it could be townie, bc you don't want to be the reason Charlie winds up at L-1 or lynch "if" the real scum vote him afterwards. Personally I find it as scummy, too so easily accept an explanation from GXW then jump on the Charlie wagon without adding any real thoughts of your own about the "contradictions". If you had just voted Charlie or not told your move it wouldn't have stood out so.

Vote: KingTwelveSixteen

Actually, both those reasons are incorrect. I didn't vote him because I recently got slammed in a different game where I voted based on someone else's argument, and then it turned out that the guy the argument was against had a bunch of reasons for everything and utterly destroyed the argument against him, and I had to remove my vote and put it back the very next post. Everyone said it was really scummy of me to just sheep somebody else's argument (it was) and I lost a bunch of credibility because of it. So I am waiting to see if Charlie has one of those counters or not so that doesn't happen again. If he doesn't I'm-a-gonna vote him immediatly (unless he gets knocked to L-1) after his post.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Er, by "put it back" I mean go back to voting the guy I was voting before I switched in the first place.

[Charlie]

Charlie: Not enough to take it to L-2 at that stage, no. Counter question to you. Would YOU have placed that vote if I had and taken it to L-1? Or were you trying to make a point?

I don't know. I guess I was just trying to make a point.

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

@Ghostlin: Good point on the claiming part. I'd like to add that it is bad play for Townies to lie about their role. Time and again, it has showed no proven benefit except in rare cases (and Newbie games are as standard as a game can get, so don't do it!)

Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

@ Charlie: Do you realise that your entire case (if you can call it that) against TS is contained in those ~3 lines above? Nowhere else have you expressed any suspicion of him in this thread. I find it extremely odd that an IC who says

...
I'm the kind of player who'll much prefer a "wait and see" approach before forming an opinion. It's a playstyle that some aren't comfortable with, but it works pretty okay for me.
...

Would jump to voting on a gut feeling almost two days after the post in question (where the quote in your above post was taken from). Does a disagreement on scumtell interpretation necessitate a vote from you? Also, you are somewhat misquoting TS, possibly in an attempt to add a smidgen of basis to your vote. He said that the town was "almost certain" that a player in another game he was playing was scum based on a multi-RVS.

Add to that what appears to be a pretty solid attempt at role-fishing with your question to me, and your repeated "no win" questions, and I'm getting a bit of a scummy read on you.

Oh. That's a surprise. Let me clarify my position: I do play by "wait and see", by that I mean I usually wait until there is significant discussion going on first, then I comment. People have gotten suspicious of this before and way too often so I decided to say it first. Voting and scumhunting, on the other hand, I do more often by gut. Of course there is logic working behind it too, but I find in LyLo situations, based on my own preference, gut is the way to go. I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so be careful when placing new votes on him. A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.

What the heck is this? How can you promote a cautious approach to someone you just recklessly voted on?

Your last post as a whole seems to me like a scum bandwagoning and then trying to cover it with some IC pro-town advice. Can you give us a bit more substance on your vote please?

Well, why can't I? I'm in control of my vote, and L-2 isn't that a big deal at page 2.
If you think that my gameplay is melding with the IC advice, I'm willing to separate them with pretty borders to avoid confusion. Some call this "putting on the IC hat".
The essence of the vote was to take a stance, get discussion, but retractable if TS gets at L-1.

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so
Unvote
until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

Your FoS on me is duly noted.

-----------

Right, so I noticed a mixed response to my actions and it seems I've been put in the spotlight a bit. I'd like it be known that I'm a little busy IRL in the coming week so I'll definitely not be a rapid poster.

[Twistedspoon]

You appear to have dodged the question(s) charlie. Why did you ask someone how they felt about their role? This is as good as rolefishing, which you have just said is a bad thing.

Vote Charlie

I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

Alarm bells should be ringing here.
How do you know that the two scummers haven't yet voted and could hammer me before you retract your vote? How can you therefore have this confidence you claim you have, unless you know who the scummers are and who will therefore vote and hammer?

To me it seems like Charlie is saying 'Oh I'll leave my vote Here, I know how dangerous a premature lynch is though.'
This makes charlie look spring clean should I get quicky hammered with a 'oh, I forgot to retract my vote'
That's the danger he's getting into here.

I'd like to add that it is bad play for Townies to lie about their role.

Isn't that obvious. It looks to me that you're trying to appear pro-town here.

Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

Why not?

If you're townie you should have a justification for your actions and rolefishing.
Or has your 'gut' excuse for wagoning already worn thin?

I don't have to rely on my gut to know that Charlie seems scummish.
I've just lynched scum in my mini open game and am hungry to do some more.

Answer the questions this time, Charlie

[Ghostlin]

I'd like to add that it is bad play for Townies to lie about their role.

Isn't that obvious. It looks to me that you're trying to appear pro-town here.

Like to stop you here. It's

not

obvious, and inexpert townies lie about their role to avoid getting lynched (people usually are more reluctant to lynch PRs).

If you are a townie, and outisde of L-1, do not be afraid of being lynched.

Scum needs themselves alive more than town does, both factions can win if the people are them are dead, but for scum, it's a shorter trip. (I've seen experienced town lie too in a claim, with mixed results.)

Also, if you claim in a semi-closed a role you don't have, there's a possibilty that someone will counterclaim you; which means, if you're VT, you've outed a role that wants to remain in the backgound and killed yourself for no gain. (This is NOT the case with scum.)

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

Um,

how?

...
Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

You know, he said this right before voting you "Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so," so refusing to answer those questions like that, well, lets just say it doesn't look good for you.

...
I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

Premature lynch? Why would anyone, scum or not, hammer him at this time, and why are you worried about it? And

why,

if you do think it is a possibility, did you still vote him with "confidence"? Someone could easily be lynched at any time whilst you are away from the computer. There is no way you could be checking this game constantly every couple minutes of every hour of every day, which is what would be required to be

absolutely sure

that you could unvote in time.

...

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so
Unvote
until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

Your FoS on me is duly noted.

Not so much a FoS as it is a "I'm totally going to vote for you if you don't give a good explanation" (or are knocked to L-1). Incidentally, this seems like a good time to point out that

Charlie is at L-1, next vote on him lynches, so don't go voting wildly.

[Twistedspoon]

@Ghostlin: fair enough. I see you point. Maybe newbie's don't see it so obviously. But we'd have half the players claiming doctor otherwise :/

@K1216: Charlie is at L-2. Myself, ghostlin and mute have votes on him. He's not at L-1 just yet, unless you vote him

[Ghostlin]

...

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

Um,

how?

...
Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

You know, he said this right before voting you "Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so," so refusing to answer those questions like that, well, lets just say it doesn't look good for you.

...
I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

Premature lynch? Why would anyone, scum or not, hammer him at this time, and why are you worried about it? And

why,

if you do think it is a possibility, did you still vote him with "confidence"? Someone could easily be lynched at any time whilst you are away from the computer. There is no way you could be checking this game constantly every couple minutes of every hour of every day, which is what would be required to be

absolutely sure

that you could unvote in time.

...

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so
Unvote
until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

Your FoS on me is duly noted.

Not so much a FoS as it is a "I'm totally going to vote for you if you don't give a good explanation" (or are knocked to L-1). Incidentally, this seems like a good time to point out that

Charlie is at L-1, next vote on him lynches, so don't go voting wildly.

L-2

. Mute, TS, and I are currently got votes on Charlie, according to last vote count. Also, I have accidentally quickhammered someone as town, and it's not pretty. I got VI status for a while in that game doing it (fortunately, not many people thought I was scum to begin with). You do not want the Day to end now, mostly because it limits analysis of things said later. (Particularly in a Lylo or Mylo situation.)

Farmer, please post more.