Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]

[havingfitz]

i did an

exhausting

(lol) re-read of the game, and i am definately not liking havingfitz' call for a policy lynch on andrew. if andrew had been actively doing anti-town things and was being a menace, then i probably would have went along with it, as i agree with pl's a good deal of the time. but when it was based solely on meta, i dont think so. combined with his rush to get this day over, he is my #2 scumread atm.

Agreed 100% - as discussed earlier, both these examples indicate Fitz avoidin talking about what was happenning in the game both by discussing PL and then attempting to end - if he did end up turning up scum, makes me wonder if there was some sort of minor scum slip early on, he was looking to avoid talking about.

The suggestion that andrew be considered for a policy lynch (in lieu of any concrete targets such as we now have with Voided) was not to avoid conversation.

I'm not advocating a quicklynch on him and thereby averting a full day's worth of discussion and tells...but if he was a candidate to be lynched it would not take a lot of persuasion for me to put my vote on him.

The suggestion to get on with Voided's lynch is. The more town run's around with it's head cut off as to what is or isn't the best move with Voided and who is or isn't his potential scumbuddies...the more benefit there is to scum IMO. If anyone disagrees with this train of thought I would like to hear your reasons why. To start day 2 off at 2 scum and 9 town (assuming 3 scum and 10 town now) should be reward enough. In this situation (pappum's result) I see continued discussion as a negative.

[Rhinox]

Votecount 1.4

andrew94 (0) -
Xalxe (2) - neil1113, andrew94
neil1113 (0) -
P.T. Barnum (0) -
Jahudo (0) -
Jerbs (0) -
mikemike778 (0) -
Idiotking (1) - Jahudo,
Jinxx (0) -
Voidedmafia (5) - Jinxx, havingfitz, P.T. Barnum, Xalxe, Cecily
Cecily (0) -
havingfitz (0) -
pappums rat (0) -

not voting (5): Jerbs, Voidedmafia, mikemike778, pappums rat, Idiotking

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1 is Wednesday, March 30 at 9:00AM EST.

Jinxx is V/LA until monday or tuesday
Jerbs is V/LA until Monday
andrew94 is is V/LA for a couple days

[neil1113]

The thing is Fitz, is I don't see us being stupid enough to let Voided off the hook. However I agree with your theory, it'd be absolutely nuts and so much WIFOM we'd get drunk, if we sat around during the day trying to figure out who Voided's partners were, since Voided has said relatively nothing, and there hasn't been much time to establish any real tells. I would like to use the day - 17 more days - for everyone to continue pressuring whoever they found scummy to begin with, and move on from there. Near the week before deadline, we could easily just wagon back on Voided and end the day. In fact, if someone puts Voided at L-1, we can then just hammer when the days ending, to make sure there's absolutely no way a no lynch will happen.

[Jahudo]

unvote

My vote was still on idiotking for random reasons.

I don't think the day should last much longer. But its a good idea for people to start thinking about other possible scum so day 2 can start off right where we are going to leave off. It won't be great information because we are only 7 pages in and vote count analysis won't be helpful, but its still good for players to start making opinions about players besides voided.

what does everyone think of voidedmafia's defense of himself?

He's isn't making a good attempt to defend himself. It looks like he's mostly resigned himself to being lynched.

- Voided hasn't placed a vote on Pappums, which I cannot understand.

- He has ignored the other votes on him and everyone else's reaction, only talking about Jinxx. He should be guessing if pappums has a buddy or two supporting him, but this looks like he doesn't want to make any connections to anyone else.

- The claim was a poor one. Neighbors can't pick their night talking partner. Another role can, but not "Neighbor", so you know he's lying. I'm a little surprised scum wouldn't pick a better claim like miller, to leave some doubt about his alignment, or another power role like doctor to try and draw a counter-claim into the open. But I'm guessing that voided is just inexperienced scum and thought neighbor would be a safer, less obvious choice?

---

voided mafia, it would be wise to claim now

Out of curiousity, what did you hope to get out of this question if you already believed pappums claim?

---

How do you know there is a doctor ?

Why did you ask this question? This is a closed setup so the only answers I think Cecily could give are "I don't know" or "Because I am the doctor". The first won't help with scumhunting and the second is rolefishing on your part. So why ask him at all?

[P.T. Barnum]

post coming tonight

[Voidedmafia]

It looks like he's mostly resigned himself to being lynched.

Considering that I think his claim is bollocks, and that I think there's little reason for him to do so, yet everyone is still going along with it, why wouldn't I?

- Voided hasn't placed a vote on Pappums, which I cannot understand.

You're right: I should've voted Pappums immediately after he put forth the claim, or when he unvoted. Those were both mistakes on my part, along with I suppose a too-cautious approach. Now I feel as if if I voted, I'd somehow be falling to the wishes of the town for me to vote, period. Irrational? I suppose, but it's still making me stay my hand.

- He has ignored the other votes on him and everyone else's reaction, only talking about Jinxx. He should be guessing if pappums has a buddy or two supporting him, but this looks like he doesn't want to make any connections to anyone else.

Not that I don't want to make connections with everyone else, but everyone is just about as equally resigned to my lynch as I am. I could find some non-pappums links, though.

- The claim was a poor one. Neighbors can't pick their night talking partner. Another role can, but not "Neighbor", so you know he's lying. I'm a little surprised scum wouldn't pick a better claim like miller, to leave some doubt about his alignment, or another power role like doctor to try and draw a counter-claim into the open. But I'm guessing that voided is just inexperienced scum and thought neighbor would be a safer, less obvious choice?

No, I didn't not think it was a safer, less obvious choice, I said it because it is my role. Also, unless my PM lied, I can choose my neighbor in N1.

no, wait, actually it's Neighborizer, not just Neighbor. -_- FFS why did I have to misread that and think they were the same thing?

And I wouldn't be stupid enough to risk a doc counter-claim. Even if it did bring out the real doctor, that leaves a potential NK and me looking scummier by the second, which is NOT what I want at all.

---

voided mafia, it would be wise to claim now

Out of curiousity, what did you hope to get out of this question if you already believed pappums claim?

Considering how much he's been on the sidelines with only 3-5 posts to his name here, I'm inclined to think that its either anti-prod or just to have a semblance of participation.

However, that is a good question.

[havingfitz]

The thing is Fitz, is I don't see us being stupid enough to let Voided off the hook.

I don't believe I said or insinuated anywhere that town was going to let Void off the hook. I think it's pretty much a done deal hence my position on getting it over with.

However I agree with your theory, it'd be absolutely nuts and so much WIFOM we'd get drunk, if we sat around during the day trying to figure out who Voided's partners were, since Voided has said relatively nothing, and there hasn't been much time to establish any real tells.

OK...so you agree....but why following up that you agree with me by proposing the exact opposite (below) of what I am?

I would like to use the day - 17 more days - for everyone to continue pressuring whoever they found scummy to begin with, and move on from there. Near the week before deadline, we could easily just wagon back on Voided and end the day.

[havingfitz]

It looks like he's mostly resigned himself to being lynched.

Considering that I think his claim is bollocks, and that I think there's little reason for him to do so, yet everyone is still going along with it, why wouldn't I?

Voided....why should we not believe pappum's claim? What would be his incentive to not tell the truth? I believe the different possibilities have already been covered well enough and there aren't any good ones I can see that involve pappum lying.

I think a one shot day investigative role that returns inaccurate results would be a pretty crappy role to put in the town. Also...I think your claim is pretty fishy as you claimed you were going to be picking your neighbors at night (which I do not believe is how the Neighbor role is set up to work) and then you change your role to the Neighborizer. That's a pretty unusual role IMO opinion to forget and/or confuse with just a standard Neighbor.

I'm assuming your "Neighborizer" is someone who can recruit/select others to be his neighbor. I'm not familiar with this role (like a cult leader?) but it could just as easily be a sccum aligned role. And as has already been mentioned...if you aren't scum, then wth is pappums doing?

At least you should have some solace in the fact that is pappums' result is not accurate...that he is probably next on the gallows.

[Voidedmafia]

It looks like he's mostly resigned himself to being lynched.

Considering that I think his claim is bollocks, and that I think there's little reason for him to do so, yet everyone is still going along with it, why wouldn't I?

Voided....why should we not believe pappum's claim? What would be his incentive to not tell the truth? I believe the different possibilities have already been covered well enough and there aren't any good ones I can see that involve pappum lying.

I think a one shot day investigative role that returns inaccurate results would be a pretty crappy role to put in the town. Also...I think your claim is pretty fishy as you claimed you were going to be picking your neighbors at night (which I do not believe is how the Neighbor role is set up to work) and then you change your role to the Neighborizer. That's a pretty unusual role IMO opinion to forget and/or confuse with just a standard Neighbor.

I'm assuming your "Neighborizer" is someone who can recruit/select others to be his neighbor. I'm not familiar with this role (like a cult leader?) but it could just as easily be a sccum aligned role. And as has already been mentioned...if you aren't scum, then wth is pappums doing?

At least you should have some solace in the fact that is pappums' result is not accurate...that he is probably next on the gallows.

[Voidedmafia]

Oh, damn it! I thought what I had typed had been saved!

It looks like he's mostly resigned himself to being lynched.

Considering that I think his claim is bollocks, and that I think there's little reason for him to do so, yet everyone is still going along with it, why wouldn't I?

Voided....why should we not believe pappum's claim? What would be his incentive to not tell the truth? I believe the different possibilities have already been covered well enough and there aren't any good ones I can see that involve pappum lying.

Pappums had voted for me in RVS becasue I flat-out said I wasn't going to participate. Later, he asked me if I have ever been scum before, which also heavily implies that he thinks I am scum. Claiming a one-shot day cop A.) Gets others to go with him on me being scum without everyone second-guessing what his motives could be, b.) potentially quicklynches me (I know he didn't want that, but it was still a possibility, like if Jerbs came back and vote for me while I was still at L-1), and c.) Keeps him safe from a cop counter because being a one-shot claim means he's just a regular townie after the usage. Arguably the only flaw in the plan is if I'm actually town or town-aligned, which puts him on the block tomorrow (and I don't need to be scum to point out that NKing him would be stupid since he'd be lynched tomorrow barring some other case gets thrown up before he's hammered. It'd just be a waste of a NK.).

I think a one shot day investigative role that returns inaccurate results would be a pretty crappy role to put in the town. Also...I think your claim is pretty fishy as you claimed you were going to be picking your neighbors at night (which I do not believe is how the Neighbor role is set up to work) and then you change your role to the Neighborizer. That's a pretty unusual role IMO opinion to forget and/or confuse with just a standard Neighbor.

I'm assuming your "Neighborizer" is someone who can recruit/select others to be his neighbor. I'm not familiar with this role (like a cult leader?) but it could just as easily be a sccum aligned role. And as has already been mentioned...if you aren't scum, then wth is pappums doing?

To answer the first and last part, at this point I'm more inclined to believe its pappums trying to get my lynch through getting all of you to follow along becasue he's a cop.

TO answer the inner part, that was an honest mistake on my part. I read the role for Neighborizer, and over the past days I got it into my head that it and neighbor did the same thing, forgetting about and ignoring the "-izer" part to my role. And you'd have to trust me on it being town-aligned.

At least you should have some solace in the fact that is pappums' result is not accurate...that he is probably next on the gallows.

I do, somewhat, but I'd prefer to be alive when he is lynched to be satisfied then, not dead in the ground and pacificied that his death came right after.

[Cecily]

I have to say, I am impressed with the way Voided has been coming back from pappums' claim. If we were still on the first page and I had to guess, Voided would have been the person I'd expect to blow up fastest at being targeted and him having not done that is surprising. Even though his reaction is not up to what I had anticipated, that's not to say that he's not just uber awesome at keeping calm under pressure. And I've never heard of a neighborizer role before.

The slip from him saying neighbor at first to neighborizer later is also suspicious. Seems like he was just rifling through potential roles, misread one, and now being called on it has to make something else up. Acting like it was just a simple error is a good way of making other people think he actually knew what he was doing. It's a simple and effective lying tactic to keep attention off of a slip up like that.

All that said I don't think we need to wait the entire continuation of this day unless someone is going to admit to being scum, and I think it would be more useful to learn if Voided is actually scum or not before continuing on with deliberations over who his buddies are. We can always come back and re read these pages tomorrow, and knowing explicitly who is lying would definitely be better than throwing random guesses around.

[havingfitz]

Voided...none of the options you provide above explain why pappums would call you guilty when if you are town...he's lynched next. I applaud your efforts to turn things around and stay alive but your reasons for disputing pappums claim don't hold water...your claim seems off...and there is no non-suicidal reason for pappum to fakeclaim a result on you.

[Voidedmafia]

I have to say, I am impressed with the way Voided has been coming back from pappums' claim. If we were still on the first page and I had to guess, Voided would have been the person I'd expect to blow up fastest at being targeted and him having not done that is surprising. Even though his reaction is not up to what I had anticipated, that's not to say that he's not just uber awesome at keeping calm under pressure. And I've never heard of a neighborizer role before.

What with you being "Why so serious?" to me and all?

The slip from him saying neighbor at first to neighborizer later is also suspicious. Seems like he was just rifling through potential roles, misread one, and now being called on it has to make something else up. Acting like it was just a simple error is a good way of making other people think he actually knew what he was doing. It's a simple and effective lying tactic to keep attention off of a slip up like that.

Oh, dear god, I hope I don't start doing THAT. That is not something I'd want to do at all.

All that said I don't think we need to wait the entire continuation of this day unless someone is going to admit to being scum, and I think it would be more useful to learn if Voided is actually scum or not before continuing on with deliberations over who his buddies are. We can always come back and re read these pages tomorrow, and knowing explicitly who is lying would definitely be better than throwing random guesses around.

With everyone so focused on me, no one else is trying to hunt anyone else, and I'm not excluding myself from that, either. And I'll start now by asking this: why you think no one else has jumped out as scummy? (from ISO #10)

[Cecily]

No one's jumped out as scummy specifically because all of the attention is on you. No one is going to try to come to your rescue at this point because that would be suicide if your result comes up scum.

[Voidedmafia]

Okay, then, assume that Pappums never claimed and none of this is going on. Who would be your top suspects?

[andrew94]

neighbourizer is nto always town aligned

[Cecily]

I don't even think thats a fair question to ask because he claimed so early. Honestly, no one has jumped out as scummy yet. Everyone in this game seems for the most part level headed and no one has just been throwing claims around (other than pappums, but thats another story). Those are the two easiest scum tells on day one and they're not strongly present in anyone. That is the reason why everyone's votes are still on you and we're all pretty much in agreement that you will be the person lynched today. If there was another scummy person, I know I'd be looking hard at them because of my lack of trust in pappums. And based off of everyone's criticism of his claim I don't think I'm alone in that. This group of people is hard to read strictly through word choice, and I think this is definitely going to be one of those games where night actions provide more intel than anything else.

And I'm starting to see why fitz commented on andrew earlier.

[P.T. Barnum]

I don't buy voided's claim (neighbor became neighborizor only under pressure), and it still wouldn't merit lynching pappums. Andrew is right that neighborizor could be scum, and therefore unconfirmable (and not particularly useful). Voided's responses to Jahudo look like flailing.
There's no point to dragging this out for too long; since we're almost certainly lynching voided, it doesn't make sense to wagon anyone else because there will be no threat of a lynch. I do like the top suspects idea.
Here are mine:

neil for 93 and 57, 93 I've explained already, and I don't like the gratuitous aggression in 57 (it could be jocular but it doesn't read like it).
xalxe's post on me is of course nonsense. That I was defending him in that post is a stretch to begin with, but as he must know I questioned him the post after that and continued to do so before pappum's claim. I still don't believe he thought three scum were going to line up on him with that vote.
I liked the wagon on Xalxe before pappum's claim. It would be worth picking up again.
I haven't had time to look for partners for voided. That might be fruitful, although he's spent most of his posts protecting himself.

[Voidedmafia]

I don't buy voided's claim (neighbor became neighborizor only under pressure)

No, neighbor becasme neibghborizer becasue I realized my mistake. Pressure had nothing to do with it beyond making me realize what that mistake was.

Voided's responses to Jahudo look like flailing.

Why would that be? Only part that looks like flailing to me is the part where I realize I had claimed the wrong role.

I haven't had time to look for partners for voided. That might be fruitful, although he's spent most of his posts protecting himself.

Becasue, yknow, I don't have any? (Well, not until I pick my neighbor choice, anyways)

Voided...none of the options you provide above explain why pappums would call you guilty when if you are town...he's lynched next. I applaud your efforts to turn things around and stay alive but your reasons for disputing pappums claim don't hold water...your claim seems off...and there is no non-suicidal reason for pappum to fakeclaim a result on you.

Because he thinks I'm scum and wants me gone. If you'll note, until he unvoted all his posts were about me being scum, and nothing else. I'm not counting RVS or anything before Idiotking confirmed to start the game, mind. After he unvotes me, he gets on Fitz and Jahudo for seeming overeagerness and the gambit suggestion, respectively. But other than that, it's been all me. Perhaps a case of tunneling?

I apologize for the fact my claim seems off. Wasn't my intention at all.

And what if there isn't and this really is some suicidal attempt?

In any case, I may be too cautious about my vote, but I'm not leaving without laying it down once.

Vote: Pappums Rat

Also, I remember someone mentioning that I also focused on Jinxx. I was thinking he might've been a buddy with Pappums, since both have voted me since or after RVS (though Pappums unvoted), and both have consistently said I was scummy in their posts.

[andrew94]

@everyone, excuse me, i remembered that someone made a reply to my comment that person X is defending the pl suggested by havingfitz- aka scum.
who was that>??

cant find the post

[andrew94]

Why do you not think it's right? From the looks of things, he's trying to defend you, in a way.

o here we go. this might be reason why he apparently checked voided.

also, i discovered an extremely scummy post that i missed before due to the cop claim.
NEIL
his post is so scummy that my teeth hurts. lynching him day2/3

[Voidedmafia]

Why do you not think it's right? From the looks of things, he's trying to defend you, in a way.

o here we go. this might be reason why he apparently checked voided.

Oh, jeez. Not only is he unhelpful, he's not even bothering to check where his info comes from.

please, please, PLEASE reread where that quote is in relation to Pappums claim, THEN you can start saying that. Otherwise, just don't.

also, i discovered an extremely scummy post that i missed before due to the cop claim.
NEIL
his post is so scummy that my teeth hurts. lynching him day2/3

The hell is this post, anyways? You do nothing to help by just saying "HEY GAIZ I FOUNDZ TEH SCUMPOSTZ LOOK LOOK LYNCHIE LYNCHIE!"

[Xalxe]

andrew, voided is right. Why is neil scummy?

[havingfitz]

We seem to have stalled a bit. Looking forward to hearing from the day+ absentees. Still not interested in doing much more than getting to the bottom of the pappum claim (ie lynching Voided). Anything else is just icing on scum's cake IMO.

[Jahudo]

@andrew: What did you hope to get out of this question if you already believed pappums claim?

---
I didn't see neil's reaction to the claim as scum-motivated. He was the first one to say voided should be lynched, but he didn't vote in that post. I think scum would want to be on a lynch wagon if they knew their buddy was caught. They would be thinking about be on that wagon more than town, who are more interested in just there being a wagon on scum.