Newbie 1086 (GAME OVER)

[projectmatt]

epicmafia.com

Enjoy.

[Zachrulez]

3rd vote count of day 1:

projectmatt - 3 (Jasont1981, Space Pope, Rockynpoika)
Jasont1981 - 2 (runner, ZengarZombolt)
Rockynpoika - 1 (Mogri)
TOGTFO - 1 (projectmatt)
Mogri - 1 (MagnaofIllusion)

Not voting: (TOGTFO)

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Day 1 will end no later than 2:30PM CST on Saturday April 23rd.

[projectmatt]

I don't believe I've voted yet, Zach. I voted Sisterman\TOGTFO a while ago but then unvoted.

[Zachrulez]

I don't believe I've voted yet, Zach. I voted Sisterman\TOGTFO a while ago but then unvoted.

You voted for Zenger earlier and then retracted that vote. I see no unvote following your Sisterman vote.

[projectmatt]

Anyway, this is all I have for the moment. I unvote sisterman and withhold future voting until I see more responses and discussions.

I just forgot to put it in bold. My bad.

[TOGTFO]

1. How is the term "up for debate?" I just don't quite understand that statement and I would like you to elaborate more.

2. You are also putting words in my mouth at the moment. I never stated that nervousness makes you "probably scum", but it can certainly be a scum tell, as can aggressiveness. Some people play differently.

1. Uh... can be argued.

2. Fine. I never meant it as a for sure scum thing, the important thing to note is that you consider something scummy, then go and do just that.

People call lurking a scumtell, but there's a difference between just not saying anything at all and attempting to fit in. There are two different kinds of lurking, and to me, one is a scumtell and the other isn't. By saying that nervousness can be a scumtell, I don't mean that any sign of it is.

I actually didn't lie about the number of games I've played, and I can present proof for that, also. I'm not attempting to "boost my ego", as you put it by saying so. I was just saying I know the basic game mechanics, and like you have stated before, introductions are important, aren't they?

What are the two types of lurking then?

Also... Epic mafia is not a forum based mafia game and because of that, you can not play it the same as you would here.

[Runner]

UNVOTE: jasonT1981

TOGTFO: Welcome to the game.

To the people suspecting projectmatt for voting Zachrulez: That was Zenbolt. I haven't seen anyone, I don't think, say directly that projectmatt voted Zenbolt but I've seen some references to that.

jasonT1981: You've been pretty fixed on projectmatt as of late. Thoughts on any other players & their styles of posting?

Moderators on here are not the same as moderators on epicmafia (As I know it) Moderators there are for moderating the community. Moderators here host games - bearing in mind we have mods and stuff for community and stuff too.

Zenbolt:

Another point that I find interesting is how Rocky vocally bandwagons on projectmatt. This sounds too suspicious to my

What is meant by this?

TOGTFO:

It seems to me that the SE and IC are doing wonderful at sparking conversation but that conversation has been purely them vs the noobs.

Evidence needed.

projectmatt:

From what I can tell, Jason seems to be attempting to stray as far away from Rocky as possible

What makes you say this? The mere fact that he's not said anything beyond a suspicion and chased up his other reads instead?

[Space Pope]

TOGTFI- I was saying that he lied about thinking the mod was a player, not that he has played a lot of games.

MOI- "Implying that you are town is scummy." Followed by saying that it will take more than that looked like you were arguing just this basic premise and not looking at why it is true. I concede that point.

Shit... I thought that that was off. The way matt was going on about how he thought the mod was a player, made me think that he was the one who voted. Makes me wonder why he would lie about that then except to possibly defend someone (town cred or protecting scumbuddy).

MOI- Can I prove what he was thinking? No, but you can't really prove anything in a game of mafia, you can only make logical inferences based on what is presented to you. That is what I did.

Matt- Were the mods playing in the same game they were modding? That seems illogical.

Though, looking back, I find the whole Matt thing a bit off, but when Matt didn't vote me or FOS me for attacking him, I think he is more town than not.

unvote

[projectmatt]

What makes you say this? The mere fact that he's not said anything beyond a suspicion and chased up his other reads instead?

It's in the fact that he very clearly suspects Rocky on the first page and never mentions him again. I do enjoy seeing how players interact with each other, and it just appears odd to me.

What are the two types of lurking then?

Also... Epic mafia is not a forum based mafia game and because of that, you can not play it the same as you would here.

Well, from what I know, there's a kind of lurking where the person just appears to be a bored player who didn't want to join the game in the first place, or the type of lurking where the person is desperately trying to fit in and not be put into the spotlight. (ie: occasionally filling with a post that has no relevance to the discussion at hand, or "active lurking", as in, stating the obvious.)

That's what I'm slowly realizing. Playing styles and scumtells may be different from what I'm used to.

Oh, and Pope, the games differ from what mafiascum is like. The mods do not host games, they simply moderate the community. It's a coded system that does the announcements\gives information.

[Runner]

What makes you say this? The mere fact that he's not said anything beyond a suspicion and chased up his other reads instead?

It's in the fact that he very clearly suspects Rocky on the first page and never mentions him again. I do enjoy seeing how players interact with each other, and it just appears odd to me.

projectmatt: If you prefer asking random questions then what's stopping you? Haven't seen much of that from you.

Post 29.

2. Why didn’t you being your first post with some Random Questions?

Post 40.

2. You didn’t answer my second question – if you believe in Random Questions as a scum-hunting tool why didn’t you post some in your first post?

Are you now blatantly ignoring this matter?

[projectmatt]

I'm making so many mistakes that I probably deserved to be lynched anyway. I thought that, once again, moderators\IC always started with whatever it was that we were doing, regardless of it was an RVS or asking random questions.

post 52

[TOGTFO]

@Runner-
MoI vs Mowgri- post 68
SpacePope vs Projectmatt post 30
Jason vs Projectmatt- post 27, 41
MoI vs Rocky- post 19
Jason vs Rocky- post 17

Out of the experienced players, MoI is the only one who has put any effort into questioning another non-newbie. (SpacePope)

[jasonT1981]

Posting will be staggered next few days, started a new job this morning and worked close to 12 hours... exhausted so will be catching up tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, that is exactly the opposite of what I said. I said that I suspect Jason, but not because he jumped on me.

Originally you posted the following –

The fact that you're the one who brought it up indicates that you're hardly neutral in the matter, so it doesn't surprise me that you're jumping down my throat suddenly,

especially since I've already indicated you're on my scumdar.

The soft but clear inference here is that it is suspicious of Jason to be questioning you since, as bolded, you are suspicious of him.

When I questioned you then you revised to saying you suspected him for other reasons.

Let's go back over this:
- I thought there was one vote on Rocky at the time.
- I actually placed the third vote on Rocky, not the second.
- You pointed this out to me.
- Having realized this, I kept my vote where it was, for the reasons detailed earlier: A) Rocky wasn't going to stay at L-2; and B) nothing Matt has done strikes me as scummy, yet Rocky and Jason seem very eager to put vote pressure on him.

You can repeat the course of events multiple times if you like but I require a direct answer to my question. Again please answer the following question –

Should you be viewed as being scummy for placing someone at L-2 with little reasoning? This is a Yes or No question … please answer accordingly.

Even if you're right on every point you've made about me, you haven't explained why it strikes you as "scum motivated play."

I’ll explain in full once you stop dodging the direct question I’ve asked you. You and Project seem to have that little habit in common.

--

Also... Epic mafia is not a forum based mafia game and because of that, you can not play it the same as you would here.

What was the point of stating this? Project has not stated he’s attempting to play the same here .. in fact he’s stated he’s trying to transition.

Out of the experienced players, MoI is the only one who has put any effort into questioning another non-newbie. (SpacePope)

You do understand that under normal role distribution (1 IC, 2 SE, 6 New players) that any experienced player has 3 times as many inexperienced players to interact with than other experienced players, correct?

We do have an additional player with experience in Jason but I would expect the interactions to spread as we get more pages of play.

--

MOI- Can I prove what he was thinking? No, but you can't really prove anything in a game of mafia, you can only make logical inferences based on what is presented to you. That is what I did.

You didn’t present your “Project is lying, Lynch All Liars” case in a manner that was logically solid. You didn’t inquire about the nature of his experience or the site norms he came from. Having now seen that his experience was based on Epic.mafia where the term Moderators holds a completely different meaning are you still going to claim he was lying?

Though, looking back, I find the whole Matt thing a bit off, but when Matt didn't vote me or FOS me for attacking him, I think he is more town than not.

So ignoring you is solid Town play?

[Space Pope]

He didn't ignore me. He addressed the points I made against him, defended himself, but didn't attack me or try and discredit me in any way. I was expecting he would be a player who would attack his attacker as scum. He didn't do this and I think it makes him more town.

[Mogri]

You can repeat the course of events multiple times if you like but I require a direct answer to my question. Again please answer the following question –

Should you be viewed as being scummy for placing someone at L-2 with little reasoning? This is a Yes or No question … please answer accordingly.

It's a loaded question. Either I can answer yes, and you'll view me as scummy, or I can answer no, and you'll view me as scummy. I see little point in answering such a question. Moreover, judging by your current vote, you seem to have made up your mind on the matter anyway.

The soft but clear inference here is that it is suspicious of Jason to be questioning you since, as bolded, you are suspicious of him.

What the reader infers and what the writer implies are two separate things. I can't really do anything about what you choose to read into what I say.

Again, though, I don't understand the reasoning behind pursuing this line of questioning. Would it have made you happier if I had said that, yes, he's scummy for pointing the finger back at the guy who pointed it at him? OMGUS isn't a strong tell. I've said this already.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's a loaded question. Either I can answer yes, and you'll view me as scummy, or I can answer no, and you'll view me as scummy. I see little point in answering such a question.

Moreover, judging by your current vote, you seem to have made up your mind on the matter anyway.

I’ve bolded for emphasis … I didn’t vote you until after you dodged the question. The inference that my mind was set before you could answer the question isn’t accurate at all.

A reaction of “Oh, so I did … I guess you could say I might be scummy if you choose but I’m placing my vote on who I think is scum” or something similar would have been a natural response.

Your response was to not directly answer but first show how the wagon on Project was baseless (in your opinion) and then to try to say that the RVS votes mean Rocky was not really at L-2.

For the record putting someone at L-2 with any sort of backing really isn’t scummy at all at this stage. Rocky wasn’t scummy for doing it and neither were you. Both of you presented reasoning, however limited, for your votes. Your reaction, however, isn’t one I would expect from Town. Too much justification for what amounted to minor suspicion.

[Mogri]

Here's how I interpreted the question:
"Are you scummy for putting rocky at L-2?"

- No:

Then neither is he! You must be scum!

- Yes:

Aha! So you admit it!

Rather than answer a no-win question, I mentioned that I didn't realize I was putting him at L-2 at the time (which, if you're feeling generous, answers your question already) and explained my reasoning for voting him and keeping my vote on him.

But let's play this from a different angle. Suppose I

am

scum. Why am I defending matt? If he's my scumbuddy, then color me the dumbest scum in the history of the game, since the second you lynch one of us, the other is also gone. This isn't WIFOM unless you think I'm taking a very risky gambit.

The other option is that my scumbuddy is someone else entirely, in which case why derail the matt wagon? No one else has his back and he's the easy lynch. Look, even now that he's got a rational and plausible explanation for all of his actions, he still has two votes on him. There's a good reason the suspicion is turning towards jason and rocky, but you haven't mentioned any. What's your read on them?

[ZengarZombolt]

Another point that I find interesting is how Rocky vocally bandwagons on projectmatt. This sounds too suspicious to my

What is meant by this?

I don't think I'm going to be getting anywhere with my vote on Zombolt so

I will be voting for projectmatt, could use a bandwagon with some teeth.

If Matt didn't have votes behind him, what Rocky says implies that he wouldn't have voted him. Why jumping into a person who has several votes already just for the sake of giving him extra pressure? It must either be a VERY solid case, or an attempt at convincing town that he is scum. As of now I see nothing scummy on Matt, as the "lying" issue was cleared when we learned how is epicmafia play, and thus should be dropped by everyone.

He didn't ignore me. He addressed the points I made against him, defended himself, but didn't attack me or try and discredit me in any way. I was expecting he would be a player who would attack his attacker as scum. He didn't do this and I think it makes him more town.

Gotta agree with this. Just because you're being suspected doesn't mean you've got to take down your attacker before he takes you down. If you did this then it would be plain OMGUSing and that's more scummy than town. That being said I don't see you saying that you were wrong about Matt lying, after being presented with evidence.

Also to balance out all this Matt defending and what not, I've got to call him out on something: You should stop trying to use regular epicmafia metaplay. Clearly the system isn't the same and is throwing you against people for the wrong reasons. While it's right that Jason's all over you, this is only half as scummy as you think, as one typically clings to a player because he has a case against said player until it's cleared. That being said, he hasn't commented on other players with cases, which is also something that makes me fee uneasy about him.

Vote's staying where it's at because Jason hasn't answered my question yet. Reposting just for the sake of being nice:

@Rocky: Why do you think the case on Matt is more promising? I'm curious.

[ZengarZombolt]

EBWOP:

Your response was to not directly answer but first show how the wagon on Project was baseless (in your opinion) and then to try to say that the RVS votes mean Rocky was not really at L-2.

Actually this holds true. Until the votes are presented with proper reasoning, you can't really have them count as being actually there unless we had a very dangerous case like L-1 or a full lynch. But on those cases, scumtells would have been oh so obvious, almost sacrificial. You could say that vote

prevented

scum from voting further on Rocky since it would have been very suspicious with what little reasoning there is normally so early.

[TOGTFO]

Here's how I interpreted the question:
"Are you scummy for putting rocky at L-2?"

- No:

Then neither is he! You must be scum!

- Yes:

Aha! So you admit it!

Rather than answer a no-win question, I mentioned that I didn't realize I was putting him at L-2 at the time (which, if you're feeling generous, answers your question already) and explained my reasoning for voting him and keeping my vote on him.

But let's play this from a different angle. Suppose I

am

scum. Why am I defending matt? If he's my scumbuddy, then color me the dumbest scum in the history of the game, since the second you lynch one of us, the other is also gone. This isn't WIFOM unless you think I'm taking a very risky gambit.

The other option is that my scumbuddy is someone else entirely, in which case why derail the matt wagon? No one else has his back and he's the easy lynch. Look, even now that he's got a rational and plausible explanation for all of his actions, he still has two votes on him. There's a good reason the suspicion is turning towards jason and rocky, but you haven't mentioned any. What's your read on them?

Maybe I am not understanding MoI's reasoning but it seems to me that you are not addressing his actual problem with you. You are still hung up on his questioning you for your vote when in fact, he is questioning your reaction to said vote.

The underlined also does not make since. Bussing is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and I fail to see how you giving a successful buss makes you look scummy.

@MoI- The count is 4 to 5 for experience vs non-expeirenced but I suppose you are right and hopefully things will swing as the game goes on.

[Space Pope]

EBWOP:

Your response was to not directly answer but first show how the wagon on Project was baseless (in your opinion) and then to try to say that the RVS votes mean Rocky was not really at L-2.

Actually this holds true. Until the votes are presented with proper reasoning, you can't really have them count as being actually there unless we had a very dangerous case like L-1 or a full lynch. But on those cases, scumtells would have been oh so obvious, almost sacrificial. You could say that vote

prevented

scum from voting further on Rocky since it would have been very suspicious with what little reasoning there is normally so early.

Don't understand the whole prevention part. Are you saying that scum wouldn't put someone at L-2 because it would be too suspicious?

[jasonT1981]

Actually, votes count anytime... RVS or not.. I have actually seen someone lynched in RVS. -2 in serious or RVS all count still as -2 regardless.

if Rocky was at -2, it is -2 regardless of when it was.

I will catch up later today, been working last 2 days flat out so not had a chance to read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – Can we get a request a prod on Sisterman, please?

--

But let's play this from a different angle. Suppose I am scum. Why am I defending matt?

There are two possible motivations for your defense if you are Scum -

1. He is your buddy. I see you tried to minimize this with the WIFOM (which you dismiss as not WIFOM) but it stands. Newbie games have only 2 Mafians. Bussing is very unproductive to scum, especially early. If your partner was in danger, especially if they were a Role-blocker to your Goon, it would be worth the risk to try to keep them from being the lynch Day 1. As you stated the possible connection would only be useable against you when one of the two of you flipped Scum.
2. He is Town. You yourself stated his is ‘an easy lynch’ (which I don’t understand the reasoning for, BTW). White-knighting him if you think he is eventually going to be lynched gives you ‘Town Cred’ for a correct read.

Of those two options I find 2 to be more likely then 1. Also, of course, you could be Town with a Town read on Matt. But dismissing the possibility in a wave of WIFOM isn’t a valid defense.

Why bring up potential scum pairs so early Day 1? That’s a fairly fruitless line of discussion until we have some flips to work with.

No one else has his back and he's the easy lynch. Look, even now that he's got a rational and plausible explanation for all of his actions, he still has two votes on him.

Two votes at this stage are rather inconsequential. Really I don’t see why you are worried at all about anyone being lynched before L-1.

There's a good reason the suspicion is turning towards jason and rocky, but you haven't mentioned any. What's your read on them?

So far I have a Null-leaning Town read on Rocky. He’s generally casting a wide net with his questions and interactions which I like. I don’t see anything that reads as scum intent.

As for Jason I have a neutral read so far. I should have a pretty solid read on him based on in the next week or so. I’m not going to detail more specifically what I’m looking for so not to influence his behavior. I have a few Jason specific tells I’ve been very successful with in the past.

--

If Matt didn't have votes behind him, what Rocky says implies that he wouldn't have voted him. Why jumping into a person who has several votes already just for the sake of giving him extra pressure? It must either be a VERY solid case, or an attempt at convincing town that he is scum. As of now I see nothing scummy on Matt, as the "lying" issue was cleared when we learned how is epicmafia play, and thus should be dropped by everyone.

I’m curious – in quoting Rocky where you responded here you specifically quoted his concluding line without referencing his large paragraph where he outlines his suspicions of Matt. Was that intentional?

Are you asserting bandwagonning someone a player has expressed suspicion of is scummy?

I disagree with your assessment that Matt hasn’t made some scummy plays. I for one dislike his repeated dodging of direct questions. It’s certainly doesn’t put him at the top of my list be he isn’t pure as the driven snow, as it were.

[Zachrulez]

@MOD – Can we get a request a prod on Sisterman, please?

Sisterman has replaced out of the game. TOGTFO holds his spot now and is not eligible for a prod.