Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Empking

Bandwagon gogogo...

@MoI - I assumed that was the point of the comment, but I asked in case you actually found Caboose suspicious and wanted to avoid telling us that. Do you suspect Twistedspoon at all?

[Twistedspoon]

I never said it would be the best thing to do, but it sure would be what I'd do

1. Do you have sufficent reason to think (meta-wise) that neil’s thought processes closely mirror your own?
2. Thank you for giving me a reason to lynch you if I ever see you make a mistake on ‘facts’ about an open game set-up in regards to the Mafia faction(s).

1) i don't know neil's meta
2) well i wasn't going to lynch him based on that fact, only an RVS wagon. But hey, feel free to suspect me should I try that tactic. I can't help feeling that I'd have dug my own grave though

[HezLucky]

I hate you all for making me come back to a topic with 52 posts in it already.

Vote: Wicked

- DIE SCUM DIE

[Umbrage]

Empking (2) - MagnaofIllusion, Wickedestjr
neil1113 (1) - Empking
Wickedestjr (1) - HezLucky

Not Voting: Twistedspoon, Regfan, Caboose, neil1113, HezLucky, DeityKabuto, zMuffinMan, Sloth, cjdrum.

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Regfan

obvscum

[neil1113]

Vote: Neil

This, for the record, is Emp's playing style. He posts short posts, no real cases, and hops on easy bandwagons. Just for future reference for all those in the game, I'm playing another game that's currently open with him in it, and he's following his meta playing style. Pushing him in that game to play with MORE words worked.. albeit slightly better (Posts went from: "vote:you" to "vote: you for rolefishing"), maybe it will in this game.

VOTE: Empking

[Sloth]

VOTE: Magna

Just cause.

Neil, do you find votes like that scummy? Were you aware that you're wagoning?

I think neil's question about the kills is a null-tell. Could swing both ways and it's waaay too WIFOMy to keep analyzing it.

[neil1113]

Sloth,

Yes I do find votes with no explanations scummy (except obviously, when you're in the RVS stage)...

and Yes I do know that I'm wagoning. But there still needs to be 4 other votes before a lynch happens, so I'm not worried about a mislynch right now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deity, cjdrum, caboose and Regfan

– Come join the party!!!!

--

Do you suspect Twistedspoon at all?

At this point? No. I have limited experience with Twisted but it does give me a general feel for his play. Nothing I see so far out of the ordinary with Town Twisted.

--

I hate you all for making me come back to a topic with 52 posts in it already.

No problem. I can’t wait to see your reaction when actual game content in Wall form starts appearing.

--

Neil, do you find votes like that scummy? Were you aware that you're wagoning?

What’s the scum hunting purpose in this question? Niel explicitly said that pushing (aka pressuring) Empking might produce more content. He was fully aware he was wagoning.

[neil1113]

What’s the scum hunting purpose in this question?

Niel

explicitly said that pushing (aka pressuring) Empking might produce more content. He was fully aware he was wagoning.

Ahem...

Neil

[Empking]

Neil: Don't talk about on-going games.

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

[neil1113]

Neil: Don't talk about on-going games.

I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games. No rule about that?

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

If I read correctly, you're asking "What alignment is someone, who jumps on the largest wagon, while trying to discredit the person voting them?" And if I read correctly, this is your attempt at casting suspicion onto me? Unfortunately, I've explained why I'm on the wagon, so I didn't just "wagon" on the wagon. I had full intention before the game even began to vote you. When the wagon started forming, it already helped my original plans to start the day. And I'm not discrediting your case, as you have no case to discredit. In all reality, it's almost

impossible

to have a case when the person you're accusing has only posted 1 time before your post...

[Twistedspoon]

I have limited experience with Twisted but it does give me a general feel for his play.

donner party vig? :p

VOTE: Hezlucky

Lucky scum more like

[Empking]

Neil: Don't talk about on-going games.

I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games. No rule about that?

Yes there is. Its this rule:
Don't talk about on-going games.

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

If I read correctly, you're asking "What alignment is someone, who jumps on the largest wagon, while trying to discredit the person voting them?" And if I read correctly, this is your attempt at casting suspicion onto me? Unfortunately, I've explained why I'm on the wagon, so I didn't just "wagon" on the wagon. I had full intention before the game even began to vote you. When the wagon started forming, it already helped my original plans to start the day. And I'm not discrediting your case, as you have no case to discredit. In all reality, it's almost

impossible

to have a case when the person you're accusing has only posted 1 time before your post...

When did I say that you were discrediting my case? Why the strawman?

Unfortunately, I've explained why I'm on the wagon, so I didn't just "wagon" on the wagon.

Ah, the well known fact that scum are always honest about their intent :roll:Could you get any scummier?

I had full intention before the game even began to vote you.

So I'm sure you wouldn't mind providing evidence of that effect, would you?

Everyone: What alignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them? And then when called out for it just strawmnan the argument?

[neil1113]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this conversation... VI Title is totally deserving here.

Yes there is. Its this rule:
Don't talk about on-going games.

*sigh*. I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games.

There is no rule where saying that you are participating in other games.

And to prove it:

Mod: Is it against the rules to say you are participating in a game with someone? Or is the rule there to prohibit talk about the game activities INSIDE the game?

Next.

When did I say that you were discrediting my case? Why the strawman?

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try

and discredit the person voting them

?

In order to vote someone you must have a case. So essentially, to discredit you, would be to discredit your case. Also:

Strawman Argument: A fallacy based on misrepresenting an opponent's position.

That was not misrepresenting. I'm discrediting you, therefore I'm discrediting your case (or lack thereof). I just skipped to the main point.

Next.

Ah, the well known fact that scum are always honest about their intent :roll:Could you get any scummier?

Can you ask a valid question? Or do you enjoy asking questions that cannot be answered? If you don't think I'm honest, say it. Don't dance around the issue. And unless you can give valid reasoning as to why I'd lie just to bandwagon on you, you really have nothing to base that opinion on and then you just begin tunneling. Which, on this occasion, is anti-town.

Next.

I had full intention before the game even began to vote you.

So I'm sure you wouldn't mind providing evidence of that effect, would you?

If I could, I would. I can't provide evidence to this. I simply stated a fact. Is that scummy too?

Next.

Everyone: What alignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them? And then when called out for it just strawmnan the argument?

1. Trust me, I'm NOT afraid of your vote. 2. The largest wagon? 2 votes? Hmm. 3. I

tried

to discredit you? So are you saying my

attempt at discrediting you

was a lie? Prove to me that this isn't your Meta. And I'll prove to you that it is. It's not so hard to do on my side. I bet it is on yours. I didn't try to discredit you, I simply stated fact. And that fact, or should I say essentially, YOU, discredited yourself.

Next?

[Empking]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this conversation...

Extremely scummy AtE.

Yes there is. Its this rule:
Don't talk about on-going games.

*sigh*. I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games.

There is no rule where saying that you are participating in other games.

And to prove it:

Mod: Is it against the rules to say you are participating in a game with someone? Or is the rule there to prohibit talk about the game activities INSIDE the game?

Next.

You're not breaking the rules in

this

game you're breaking

that

game.

When did I say that you were discrediting my case? Why the strawman?

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try

and discredit the person voting them

?

In order to vote someone you must have a case. So essentially, to discredit you, would be to discredit your case. Also:

So can I presume that you don't consider Ad Hom to be a logical fallacy?

Next.

Ah, the well known fact that scum are always honest about their intent :roll:Could you get any scummier?

Can you ask a valid question? Or do you enjoy asking questions that cannot be answered?

This is scum simply making frustrating noise. Does anybody actually think that neil isn't familiar with the idea of rhetorical questions?

If you don't think I'm honest, say it. Don't dance around the issue. And unless you can give valid reasoning as to why I'd lie just to bandwagon on you, you really have nothing to base that opinion on and then you just begin tunneling. Which, on this occasion, is anti-town.

You mean a valid reason like your being nervous of the single vote?

Next.

I had full intention before the game even began to vote you.

So I'm sure you wouldn't mind providing evidence of that effect, would you?

If I could, I would. I can't provide evidence to this. I simply stated a fact. Is that scummy too?

Yes. Essentialy you added noise for no other reason than you thought it would make you look town.

Next.

1. Trust me, I'm NOT afraid of your vote.

So I'm sure you'll back that up with some evidence.

2. The largest wagon? 2 votes? Hmm.

You don't think it was the largest wagon.

3. I

tried

to discredit you? So are you saying my

attempt at discrediting you

was a lie? Prove to me that this isn't your Meta. And I'll prove to you that it is. It's not so hard to do on my side. I bet it is on yours. I didn't try to discredit you, I simply stated fact. And that fact, or should I say essentially, YOU, discredited yourself.

LOL

So you were just stating a fact with complete disinterest? Its sheer coincidence that the person you simply stated a fact about was the person voting you?

Why do I doubt that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ahem... Neil

That was a typo I missed. My mistake.

That said if you are going to get bent out of shape with having your name spelled wrong on occasion here on MS you are probably in for lots of frustration.

*sigh*. I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games. There is no rule where saying that you are participating in other games.

I’m not the Mod but I’ll answer – referencing any ongoing game of any sorts including mentioning who you are playing with are forbidden site-wide.

--

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

1. Can you demonstrate with quotes where Neil shows ‘fear’ of your vote?
2. Are you attempting to say that his posting of your style of play is discrediting? I find it a rather accurate portrayal of your playstyle. He doesn’t say it makes you scum, BTW. He said that pressuring you to provide more than unsupported votes and throw-away one liners is a good plan. And it seems to be working.
3. Please identify what you case on Neil is.

Ah, the well known fact that scum are always honest about their intent Could you get any scummier?

So he can’t be possibly telling the truth because you call him scum? Scumtastic thought process there.

[Empking]

Ahem... Neil

That was a typo I missed. My mistake.

That said if you are going to get bent out of shape with having your name spelled wrong on occasion here on MS you are probably in for lots of frustration.

*sigh*. I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games. There is no rule where saying that you are participating in other games.

I’m not the Mod but I’ll answer – referencing any ongoing game of any sorts including mentioning who you are playing with are forbidden site-wide.

--

Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

1. Can you demonstrate with quotes where Neil shows ‘fear’ of your vote?
2. Are you attempting to say that his posting of your style of play is discrediting? I find it a rather accurate portrayal of your playstyle. He doesn’t say it makes you scum, BTW. He said that pressuring you to provide more than unsupported votes and throw-away one liners is a good plan. And it seems to be working.
3. Please identify what you case on Neil is.

1. His vote and his discrediting of me have only one motive I can think of.
2. When did I ever said it wasn't the truth? If I started saying "Don't listen to Magna he has an 80% scum win rate and has very low town rate" would you just say "That's not discrediting that'sd the truth!"
2b. "He doesn’t say it makes you scum, BTW." This is an absurd misrepresentation of the point.
3. His posting comes from a scum mindset and only a scum mindset. Plus there's your post I'm quoting that maskes you look like buddies.

Ah, the well known fact that scum are always honest about their intent Could you get any scummier?

So he can’t be possibly telling the truth because you call him scum? Scumtastic thought process there.

So are you just wasting my time or are you saying we should we just take everyone's word as fact?

Curious coincidence that your posting is a mixture of defending neil and attacking neil's attacker. Wierd.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. His vote and his discrediting of me have only one motive I can think of.

Well perhaps you need to work on thinking harder.

See I can throw pointless barbed statements out just like you. I try to refrain from doing it since it isn't Pro-Town behavior.

2. When did I ever said it wasn't the truth? If I started saying "Don't listen to Magna he has an 80% scum win rate and has very low town rate" would you just say "That's not discrediting that'sd the truth!"

So you are admitting that Neil’s analysis of your playstyle is accurate. Good. Explain again how that discredits you. Are you saying that your playstyle is inherently scummy?

If you were to say something like that I’d simply ask you to back up your statement with reasons including how it has any bearing on the role PM I received and how my Town win rate is very low.

2b. "He doesn’t say it makes you scum, BTW." This is an absurd misrepresentation of the point.

No, it’s not. He clearly stated that pressuring you to provide more in-depth content was his goal. Nice attempt to deflect with Wiki-tells, BTW.

3. His posting comes from a scum mindset and only a scum mindset. Plus there's your post I'm quoting that maskes you look like buddies.

1. Unless you can back up with specific quotes on your assertion you are just throwing around rhetoric.
2. Oh so now we are buddies. I’ll challenge you to provide the solid scum motivation for either sets of scum (2 Werewolfs or 3 Evil Sheep) to vote together and work together so obviously on Page 3. This is just more smearing from you. Noted.

So are you just wasting my time or are you saying we should we just take everyone's word as fact?

So I’m free to assume you are lying about everything you are saying since scum lie? Ok, just wanted to know the standard you are working with.

This is the sort of broad based statement that is completely invalid. Of course scum are going to lie. The goal of Mafia (you know the game we are playing) is to assess whether certain individuals a lying based on other contextual clues and logic. All you are doing is suffering from Confirmation Bias – “I know he’s scum so he’s obviously lying”.

Curious coincidence that your posting is a mixture of defending neil and attacking neil's attacker. Wierd.

Very typical soft attack. I notice you go out of your way to avoid directly saying I am scummy. Instead you use loaded words like ‘curious’ and ‘weird’.

Unwilling to commit to outright saying I am scum with him?

Also you seem to be saying that I only have interest in you due to this exchange. Given I was the first vote (and a serious one at that) for you that’s hardly the case.

I like where my vote is at.

[neil1113]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this conversation...

Extremely scummy AtE.

Funniest thing of it all, I was right. And unless you can prove that I was attempting to appeal to ones emotions, this is very wrong categorizing.

So can I presume that you don't consider Ad Hom to be a logical fallacy?

If you can name one time I've personally insulted you, feel free to call me out for Ad-Homing. Village Idiot is the only thing closest I can consider, and that's a MS Description of a MS Players Playing Style. Not a personal insult. If you can't see the difference, there's no point in discussing this any further.

This is scum simply making frustrating noise. Does anybody actually think that neil isn't familiar with the idea of rhetorical questions?

I was emphasizing the lack of discussion you were actually producing, and how in your own words, you were just making "noise." Did I ever say it wasn't rhetorical, or hint that I didn't understand that?

If you don't think I'm honest, say it. Don't dance around the issue. And unless you can give valid reasoning as to why I'd lie just to bandwagon on you, you really have nothing to base that opinion on and then you just begin tunneling. Which, on this occasion, is anti-town.

You mean a valid reason like your being nervous of the single vote?

Wow. Not only did you not even give a valid response, but you accuse me of being scared and nervous? Hmm. Alrighty then. You show me one game where you've lead a leading wagon, and convinced others to jump on board, and then I'll listen. Otherwise, according to your Meta, I have nothing to be afraid of.

Yes. Essentialy you added noise for no other reason than you thought it would make you look town.

Funny how you seem to be doing the exact thing you accuse me of?

1. Trust me, I'm NOT afraid of your vote.

So I'm sure you'll back that up with some evidence.

Like I said, prove to me I'm afraid, and I'll prove to you that I'm not. Burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused.

2. The largest wagon? 2 votes? Hmm.

You don't think it was the largest wagon.

I didn't say that. Just shocked you'd make it out to be such a big wagon, when you're not really in danger of a lynch. And considering the circumstance, you seem to be the one fearful of the wagon, as you keep bringing it up! You're just hypocritical with your phrasings today aren't you?

3. I

tried

to discredit you? So are you saying my

attempt at discrediting you

was a lie? Prove to me that this isn't your Meta. And I'll prove to you that it is. It's not so hard to do on my side. I bet it is on yours. I didn't try to discredit you, I simply stated fact. And that fact, or should I say essentially, YOU, discredited yourself.

LOL

So you were just stating a fact with complete disinterest? Its sheer coincidence that the person you simply stated a fact about was the person voting you?

Why do I doubt that?

Again, no response. Again, just making noise. Again, hypocritical. Hmm.

You can't accuse me of discrediting you because I pointed out your playing style? You discredited yourself. I just pointed it out. That's not my problem.

[Empking]

This is the sort of broad based statement that is completely invalid. Of course scum are going to lie. The goal of Mafia (you know the game we are playing) is to assess whether certain individuals a lying based on other contextual clues and logic. All you are doing is suffering from Confirmation Bias – “I know he’s scum so he’s obviously lying”.[/wquote]

So going "We can't trust everything neil says because he might be scum" is confirmation bias nowadays?
Why do I doubt that you actually think that?

Oh so now we are buddies. I’ll challenge you to provide the solid scum motivation for either sets of scum (2 Werewolfs or 3 Evil Sheep) to vote together and work together so obviously on Page 3. This is just more smearing from you. Noted.

To allow them tyo control the vote and keep them alive. That's why bussing works (because in a vacuum buddies should work together rather than against each other).
Why do I think that you already know that?

If you were to say something like that I’d simply ask you to back up your statement with reasons including how it has any bearing on the role PM I received

Oh you've changed your sig. Wierd. Very wierd.

how it has any bearing on the role PM I received[/quotye]

You keep bringing this up. Tell me, how is this relevant at all?

So I’m free to assume you are lying about everything you are saying since scum lie?

What a ridiculous strawman. (Oh no! Wiki tell!)

Unvote

Vote: MOI

- The mixture of opaque defending and chainsaw defences, lying (On ho another wikitell!) and strawmanning.

[neil1113]

Ahem... Neil

That was a typo I missed. My mistake.

That said if you are going to get bent out of shape with having your name spelled wrong on occasion here on MS you are probably in for lots of frustration.

I wasn't really bent out of shape, or angry, or upset with you? Just simply correcting you.

*sigh*. I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games. There is no rule where saying that you are participating in other games.

I’m not the Mod but I’ll answer – referencing any ongoing game of any sorts including mentioning who you are playing with are forbidden site-wide.

Ah, see this is where I disagree. I believe I've done it before, and I've seen it done before, where this same issue was brought up, and it was agreed upon by the Mod that it was not a problem to be mentioning it? If it is a problem, I'm sorry and I'll stop. I don't mean to be rebellious to the rules. I just don't think the rule specifically talks about that, and if it does, why would mentioning someone you're in a game with matter to the game at hand? I could understood if I said "Yeah, this game in which I'm town/scum in was going on.." or gave any details of the game itself out, but just to mention the very game without giving away any details or anything? I just don't see the harm in it, that would warrant such a rule. That's why I asked the Mod.

[Empking]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this conversation...

Why did you say this?

If you can name one time I've personally insulted you

Misrep. (you can try to discredit somebody based off anything it need not be an insult.)

The largest wagon?

You don't think it was the largest wagon.

I didn't say that.

What bull. I can see why MOI has such a high scum win rate. Pretty clever plan of you two.

So you were just stating a fact with complete disinterest? Its sheer coincidence that the person you simply stated a fact about was the person voting you?[/quote

Y or N?

Its not difficult.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What bull. I can see why MOI has such a high scum win rate. Pretty clever plan of you two.

See and it is things like this that make me happy about my vote.

You've directly seen me work as scum. LMP's Mini Normal game not that long ago. Where you saw me do exactly the opposite of what you are accusing me of here.

In that game I distanced from Xdaa (my known partner) and more or less ignored DGB (who I suspected was the traitor but couldn't be sure).

Yet you are ignoring that game to spin some sort of obv-buddying partnership angle here.

If anything I'd be open to the possibility that you and Neil are hard distancing each other (he's only voting you to pressure you to perform and you are more than happy to suddenly switch to me even though you've stated he can only be posting from a scum perspective) and you are trying to tie me to him in the case he eventually flips.

I'll mark that down in my notes. Good effort if that is actually the case.

[Empking]

What bull. I can see why MOI has such a high scum win rate. Pretty clever plan of you two.

See and it is things like this that make me happy about my vote.

You've directly seen me work as scum. LMP's Mini Normal game not that long ago. Where you saw me do exactly the opposite of what you are accusing me of here.

In that game I distanced from Xdaa (my known partner) and more or less ignored DGB (who I suspected was the traitor but couldn't be sure).

Yet you are ignoring that game to spin some sort of obv-buddying partnership angle here.

Yes because when scum know their scum meta they continue to play in ways fitting with their scum meta. Why do I doubt that you actually think that?

I'll mark that down in my notes. Good effort if that is actually the case.

Ho ho ho. Very droll.