Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)

[Maxous]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 1 - Juls - (L-10)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, AlmasterGM - (L-9)

GreyICE

- 1 - ToastyToast - (L-10)

Maxous

- 1 - Vi - (L-10)

mykonian

- 3 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto - (L-8)

RayFrost

- 1 - Katsuki - (L-10)

Vi

- 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)

Players not voting: Amrun, Bastard Bros, C-Worl, Iecerint, InHimshallibe, Magister Ludi, Maxous, mykonian, RayFrost, RedCoyote

Explain. I don't see your pov.

Alright let's go through this..
Let's say for example we the town determine Amrun and Juls to be the two most likely players to be mafia. We tell them to duel each-other and we will kill them both. If they don't do this we will lynch them one after the other.
Alas, it turns out Juls is town. If she calls this duel then she would be allowing herself as town to die without people lynching her (this is the equivalent of self-hammering as town) and therefore we get little info out of the lynch/death as opposed to analysing who voted to be her lynched.
That is why it is actually a bad move as town.

As for the other points..

- Yes, the town's permission

- Yes, only claim if that person is going to be lynched/killed. The reason I say this is in case a strong town player declares a duel on a scummy player but it turns out the scummy player is actually the doctor or something. It would be too late to turn back and we would be in a lose-lose situation in picking the winner.

- As for the last point I disagree because the implication from the rules is not everyone has a dueling ability they can gain. So it would either be
1) A waste when we could be choosing somebody that does have an ability
or
2) We would be outing those that don't have a dueling abiltiy to gain - There could well be a reason they don't

I agree with this for the most part, but if there comes a situation where something is a 1v1 without a duel...well, they should probably just duel.

You said you agree with elvis knits but this statement does'nt read like you did.
And why should two people who are in an arguement just duel anyway? What if you think neither of them are scummy?

Hmm I want to see who mykonian is so sure of that he wants to duel right away. I have a thought but I'll wait for the response.

P-Edit: So we can basically use Gamma as a double lynch today.
Moar P-Edit: Don't get it Juls. Why is Amrun's joke scummy?

[ToastyToast]

I'm saying that, for the most part, elvis is correct. Who duels who should be left up to town. If there are to obviously growing wagons, both of which are being contested against one another, that is enough reason for a duel. They can legitimately duke it out, so to speak.

SO, I'm not talking about any 'lil argument, but one in which it becomes apparent that no other lynch will be happening.

If I think neither of them scummy? Touche, that would suck. Just note that when I said 1v1, I more or less meant the above--that there is a general consensus that at least one of the 2 ppl is scum.

The duel mechanic forces players to take a risk for the sake of power. It is a powerful tool when done correctly, but when a town loses, it hurts regardless of whether or not the person dueling them was scum.

I think we should just get the speculation stuff of the way early, so:
1) Should duels be a town consensus or based on an individuals confidence in their reads/need for power?
2) Flavor speculation: Who is our enemy?

My answers:
1)Town consensus, UNLESS, as stated earlier, it is a player is confident enough in his reasons for dueling without it. Consensus suggests that everyone is agreement on something, but the majority is not always correct.
2) I don't know it well enough, which is why I asked the question. However, given the amount of families in the game, I could see more than one scum team.

[Maxous]

Well I get what you meant now.
However the problem I would have with 2 'scummy looking' people dueling is we would be giving the winner a power-up. Plus the hassle of trying to get them to duel each-other in the first place if they suspect they are going to lose.

1) The way I would rather do it is who dies is decided by at least a reasonable amount of town consensus and who does the killing is decided by need for power/who plain wants to.
Too much individual responsibility for deciding lynches will make it hard to analyse certain people's opinions.

2) Hmm as far as I know Dong Zhou and his army? But it could easily be one of the other clans that were around at the time.
To be honest I did'nt even think of the multiple families until you mentioned it,that is possible.

[AlmasterGM]

1)Town consensus, UNLESS, as stated earlier, it is a player is confident enough in his reasons for dueling without it. Consensus suggests that everyone is agreement on something, but the majority is not always correct.

This is a pretty non-concrete stance on the issue. Majority rules except when somebody strongly disagrees with the majority? That's not majority rules.

Scumbucket with you.

[ToastyToast]

1)Town consensus, UNLESS, as stated earlier, it is a player is confident enough in his reasons for dueling without it. Consensus suggests that everyone is agreement on something, but the majority is not always correct.

This is a pretty non-concrete stance on the issue. Majority rules except when somebody strongly disagrees with the majority? That's not majority rules.

Scumbucket with you.

sigh...your misunderstanding me. People are going to want to duel, regardless of what the town is thinking. In a situation i which a person is ABSOLUTELY convinced that another is scum, and they believe they have enough evidence to convince the town (which must be done regardless of the duel mechanic), then I feel they have enough reason to start said duel. A duel implies that its not town-vs-suspect--it, at its root, is still one player versus another. Dueling a person forces everyone to pay attention.

[Gammagooey]

Personally I don't think all this is actually helpful but maybe some other people can get some reads out of this mess.

1) Should duels be a town consensus or based on an individuals confidence in their reads/need for power?

-It absolutely needs some restraints from other players- if the player doesn't have a chance of getting lynched without the duel mechanic-
another way to put this is the majority of the town thinks they're leaning town or a solid chunk of players has a strong town read on them, then you put your read in check and don't duel them. Or make a case to see if you can convince some naysayers, and if you sway most of them Then duel them. (exception for if you're getting lynched and the other has been agreed to get a power or something)

-If there's 2 or 3 major candidates for the noose and you like noosing #2 better than #1 to the point that you're willing to go down with them, that's fine.

-If almost everyone thinks someone is scum to the point that there isn't going to be another lynch that day, don't fuck it up. (feel free to look up benmage in Faraday's Storm of Swords for an example of this)

-If you make your first post of the day a duel, then I will literally kill you. Wait for other people to show up to make sure there isn't role info around.

2) I don't know the flavor. Just from number of players+duel mechanic I'm expecting either 1 scumteam of 5 or 2 of 3.

[C-Worl]

Come in, read thread, wave to everybody.

Vote: Myko

Make remarkably unfunny joke, sit down. Smile.

[DeityKabuto]

1)Town consensus, UNLESS, as stated earlier, it is a player is confident enough in his reasons for dueling without it. Consensus suggests that everyone is agreement on something, but the majority is not always correct.

This is a pretty non-concrete stance on the issue. Majority rules except when somebody strongly disagrees with the majority? That's not majority rules.

Scumbucket with you.

sigh...your misunderstanding me. People are going to want to duel, regardless of what the town is thinking. In a situation i which a person is ABSOLUTELY convinced that another is scum, and they believe they have enough evidence to convince the town (which must be done regardless of the duel mechanic), then I feel they have enough reason to start said duel. A duel implies that its not town-vs-suspect--it, at its root, is still one player versus another. Dueling a person forces everyone to pay attention.

In a duel, are you forced to accept the person who challenges you?

[Juls]

@Maxous - Amrun was defending before she was even attacked.

OK, I have an idea, it's probably dumb but it's a thought nonetheless. Why not play this game as normal. Then, if you are town, and you are about to be mislynched and there is no way to save yourself, you should Duel the person you have the biggest town read on so that in your death, we empower a townie. If someone hammers then they are auto-scummy. If someone refuses to L-1 duel, then an elected townie can force a duel. This should help us empower town as often as possible. Anyone who hammers is scummy. Anyone who duels without being elected is scummy. Anyone who duels someone else and flips scum should be heavily considered as scummy but not guaranteed (scum could wifom it).

Thoughts?

[Katsuki]

JULS IS TOWNIER THAN TOWN.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

[Gammagooey]

In a duel, are you forced to accept the person who challenges you?

Yes.

@Juls- I'd be pretty okay with that except dueling would have to happen at L-2 instead of L-1, otherwise scum could just self-hammer to avoid giving any info/powers out to town. And if there are two very scummy people or one and an uberlurker we can always just add in a double lynch and go back to giving a power with every lynch.

[Amrun]

What do you mean by the comment about me, Juls? Defending what? It was just a joke.

I think Juls' idea is better than the others, so far, but I don't know what she means by if someone flips scummy then they are scum. Can you explain this part?

Even that plan doesn't seem optimal, but I'm not sure I can think of anything better. If I do, I'll post it here, obviously.

[Gammagooey]

I'm pretty sure she means that if scum chooses someone to get a power on their death, then they should be viewed as scummy. Which is kinda obvious but makes sense.

[Amrun]

Oh, I see. Yes, that makes sense.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: Rayfrost

His comment about being scum is worthy of a vote.

Toasty is also worth keeping an eye on. The only reason a mind would wonder to the possibility of two ro more scum teams is if the known composition of your own scum team is not very strong or large.

C-Worls 81 looks like a vote park with an easy transition to a any forming wagon. Dislike.

----------

As for Flavor about more scum teams, we have

Wu

with the Quan family,

Shu

with Lui Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and possibly a serial killer along the lines of Dong Zhou or Lu Bu.

Each probably interact favorably with duels somehow

[Juls]

I agree that L-2 is probably a better idea.

[Amrun]

Ludi, what is the difference between C-Worl's vote and DeityKabuto's vote? I think DK's is even worse, but they're both bad.

In fact:

VOTE: DeityKabuto

[Magister Ludi]

I missed that. Definently voteable.

[GreyICE]

Please read some other DK games before voting him

[ReaperCharlie]

Still waiting for our hydra to be activated (Drunken Unicorn Master).

Stand by.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: Rayfrost

His comment about being scum is worthy of a vote.

Toasty is also worth keeping an eye on. The only reason a mind would wonder to the possibility of two ro more scum teams is if the known composition of your own scum team is not very strong or large.

C-Worls 81 looks like a vote park with an easy transition to a any forming wagon. Dislike.

So you're voting for someone based on a pregame joke rather than actual content-based interactions?

[Magister Ludi]

I'm voting someone because their intial statement was bad, and their follow up play of mostly duel speculation hasn't influenced me at all to move my vote off. That is content.

[AlmasterGM]

Why didn't you mention the setup spec issue in your previous post?

[RayFrost]

Erm. Ludi, the game hadn't started yet and all there

was

to talk about was duel speculation. I couldn't even vote.

So what you're saying is nonsensical to me.

This and this read like made up post restrictions to me.

I agree with gamma that arguing about the duel stuff might not be the greatest idea early on. We're probably better off focusing on the whole finding scum thing rather than distracting from this by trying to solve the issue of optimal dueling strategy. First we find scum... then we think about the best way to deal with them.

[RayFrost]

Toasty is also worth keeping an eye on. The only reason a mind would wonder to the possibility of two ro more scum teams is if the known composition of your own scum team is not very strong or large.

As for Flavor about more scum teams, we have

Wu

with the Quan family,

Shu

with Lui Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and possibly a serial killer along the lines of Dong Zhou or Lu Bu.

Each probably interact favorably with duels somehow

"Toasty is suspect for coming up with the possibility of multiple scumteams"

"There are possibilities for scumteams and there's probably a serial killer!"

Vote: Magister Ludi