Mini 1181 - Buffy Mafia

[MagnaofIllusion]

@LLD

– I’ve noticed you’ve completely dropped your “MoI is scum undermining me” drivel from earlier. I’d like you to specifically clarify – was that scum play in your mind or not.

Llama’s near obsession with hunting Angel makes me almost think he is a Lyncher of some sort.

@Llama

– I have two requests for you at 68 that you need to address. Please do so. Thank you.

I agree that Acronach’s hop onto Toasty was bad. I find it especially suspect considering it came right after Llama had tied the Jason and Toasty wagons up. Possible Jason – Acro relationship noted.

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I would like to contradict MoI on the Spike thing. Vampires are either a species of demon or demon-human hybrid in Buffyverse depending on who you ask.
You could certainly call them "demonic".

Vampires in the Buffyverse are a specific offshoot of demons from the old times – when the Demons went away they remained as they had co-mingled with humanity. They are a significantly different type of creature than demons and thus their own ‘type’. This is all coming from my memory of the Episode where Buffy goes to meet the “First Watchers” to gain power to fight against the Uber-Vamps in Season 7, BTW.

That said did you note that I specifically DIDN’T say Toasty’s Miller claim was bad due to being a Demonic Townie and that it was reasonably Mod possible? Curious about that.

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What pings you about this?

You’ve noted that I’ve offered to join a voting block with three other players and specifically used ‘cliquey’ which has negative connotations when describing said block. On a gut level I noted that word choice so it made an ever so slight ping to my scum-dar.

Not as significant as Llama’s directly calling forming said block scummy, but of note to me non-the-less.

As for my comments about the alliance thing. My take is that several of these players know each other, have played together, and were playing around. Now, if I really think there is some sort of serious alliance going on I will definitely take note and be very interested.

Elaborate.

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Why me and not MissJJ, Jason, or iamausername?

Because Locke, who has agreed to be in a voting block, suggested you first.

Did you not notice that I also suspect Jason and MissJJ to some degree based on my posting?

I have to go look at Iam based on this comment.

Where are you getting this? I asked her if I was indeed a miller, not if claiming such would get me banned. Her response was that I was a demon alligned with town. Hence, it leads me to believe that my role is different than a Vanilla townie, and the role PM points to miller.

Here is the post that you made –

I did not claim in the first post because I was asking the mod for clarification. She couldn't say much out of fear that it would wreck the setup.

I read this as you saying that she didn’t want you to claim based on ruining the set-up, not that you were asking for clarification of Miller status.

That being said on review it does look like my initial read was a mis-read. Since the bulk of my suspicion on Toasty is based on that mis-read ..

UNVOTE: Toasty

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VOTE: Jason

[Acronach]

@MoI you're still using the voting block outside of RVS? That's not scummy... not scummy at all [/sarcasm]

[Regfan]

MoI, your speculation over Llama potentially being a lyncher is illogical. For him to be a lyncher he would initally have to work out who Angel is and then proceed to get them lynched a near impossible task given that I don't see a name mass-claim being expected in this setup.

Acronach, don't make me doubt the newb-town read I had on you earlier, it's not a read I like to give out often. The main purpose of the voting block is for outside of the RVS, it allows competent players to string together and come to some form of consensus over who to lynch as well as allowing them to attain a better read of the players in their voting block.

[jasonT1981]

hello again, sorry..had a busy night last night and this afternoon until recently.I will quickly address the questions asked off me.

Um, whut?

You provide several parts of her actions thus-far that you see as not Town (my interpretation of the above) including her making her vote ‘real’ and what you call a possible scum-slip. Which you say you will be “watching her” for.

Then you vote her and include some sort of RVS fluff as support?

Maybe watch was wrong word, but right now I am suspicious enough to make a vote and I will be looking out to see her interactions with others so as to get a read on who she is distancing/buddying with.

Jason is Angelus and fakeclaimed Angel in 58.

this is obsurd. I said I thought Angel to be the better show, it was darker and more adult to Buffy

Is it a scum slip, or isn't it? You don't get to come back to it when it is convenient for you, "in the future". The fact that you are willing to sit on the fence about this and avoid taking a real stance, but are also willing to have it be used as admissible evidence in "the future" is pure scum intent.

Townies give reads, scum collects posts to try and gather mislynches.

It's fairly obvious which one you are attempting.

I have been known to jump in and accuse people of scum-slips to easily... I have a vote on you, that is not fencesitting, that is taking a stance.

Going to give thoughts on everything else later, I saw these from last night but didnt get a chance to answer at the time due to family being at the house and only being on MS for a quick skim to keep up.

[Llamarble]

Calling me LL is going to cause confusion. Locke Lamora is LL. Lady Lambdadelta is LLD. I'm Llama or Marble, maybe Mar if you're really lazy.

@MOI68:
I don't find alliance proposals scummy in general, but I got minor negative vibes from the size and timing of yours and it was something to RVSpush on.
Ewwbadlogic is different from ewwscumlogic; it too is worthy of early pursuit but 'does this actually come from scum' has to be considered.
I said Jason claimed Angel because he said "Angel is better" and accused LLD of being soulless, which would suggest he isn't and that that is significant.
Angel is the character who is most notably nonsoulless. Spike too but now that's been claimed and his post didn't mention spike.

Acro:
Even as scum I wouldn't asspull names and make up reasons for them being scum; I'd look at which townies other townies would see as scum.
Asspulling might set in down the road if I felt it was important to lynch a specific player and they weren't actually scummy enough.

I'm not rushing into a lynch. I am rushing into useful discussion. Threat of quicklynch produces Real Pressure (tm).
I do think Jason is the best lynchcandidate so far but yeah we should figure out who his buddies are for real before obliterating his evil ass.
And yeah the Angelus fakeclaiming Angel thing is not at all the central point of my case.
This latest post is scumgold too.
"I will be looking at her to see who she is distancing and buddying with." WHAT.
"I have a vote on you, that is not fencesitting it's taking a stance." LOLOLOLOL.

Not a fan at all of Edmund or Acronach.

[jasonT1981]

I said Jason claimed Angel because he said "Angel is better" and accused LLD of being soulless, which would suggest he isn't and that that is significant.

for the record, Angelus was cursed with a soul, so Angel, did have a soul and thus became good.

Angel is a vampire who is cursed with a soul, a punishment designed to make him suffer for his past crimes committed under the name Angelus.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI you're still using the voting block outside of RVS? That's not scummy... not scummy at all [/sarcasm]

Explain in detail why it is scummy. I’d like to know.

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MoI, your speculation over Llama potentially being a lyncher is illogical. For him to be a lyncher he would initally have to work out who Angel is and then proceed to get them lynched a near impossible task given that I don't see a name mass-claim being expected in this setup.

1. It’s just a gut feeling I had. Don’t make too much of it.
2. Read Llama’s ISO and then tell me how illogical it is. He mentions Jason as scummy and a partner to Toast in ISO 4. In ISO 7 he explicitly mentions he thought Jason claimed Angel. He votes him at ISO 8 and continues to push the concept that Angel Town is the fake-claim of Angelus – Scum. Not completely out of the question. I admit its unlikely but I've nailed Lynchers before on gut reads.
3. Why would a mass name-claim not be a possibility?

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Maybe watch was wrong word, but right now I am suspicious enough to make a vote and I will be looking out to see her interactions with others so as to get a read on who she is distancing/buddying with.

Were you ‘not suspicious enough’ when you originally voted for LLD? This post seems to indicate you were not and I want to be clear on the issue.

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Asspulling might set in down the road if I felt it was important to lynch a specific player and they weren't actually scummy enough.

Enlighten me what ‘asspulling’ means. I’m reading this as saying you’d be more than willing to resort to heavy levels of rhetoric to assure a lynch you felt was important if it wasn’t happening on its own merits. Is this a correct assessment?

[Llamarble]

Right. You made a point of LLD being soulless. Having a soul is a matter of significance to Angel because it is unusual for a vampire. And you mentioned Angel.

P. Edit:
Meh if I drew a lyncher in a theme game I think I would just claim 1shotdaycop at some point with a guilty on the guy I was supposed to lynch.
Mass name claim is interesting, but is more likely to help scum than town unless scum weren't given safeclaims.
Yes, if I was scum and the situation called for it I would do more or less that.
Heavy rhetoric as town happens when I DO think it has merit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Meh if I drew a lyncher in a theme game I think I would just claim 1shotdaycop at some point with a guilty on the guy I was supposed to lynch.

Lost Season 1 says that's not a very effective tactic ...

[Regfan]

1. It’s just a gut feeling I had. Don’t make too much of it.
2. Read Llama’s ISO and then tell me how illogical it is.
3. Why would a mass name-claim not be a possibility?

1. Fair enough. Though if you have a gut feeling that Llarmable is lyncher with Jason as his target why vote Jason?
2. I see what you're saying though I'm not getting much from it myself, though that could entirely be because I know minimal about Angel.
3. I never mentioned that it wasn't a possibility just that I don't believe it's expected in this setup. At the moment I believe the risks of a mass name-claim outweight the possible benefits though.

[Acronach]

@MoI you're still using the voting block outside of RVS? That's not scummy... not scummy at all [/sarcasm]

Explain in detail why it is scummy. I’d like to know.

first of all: 3-4 people, just about the right size of a maf team. if it was a maf team, it would be a good excuse to wagon on someone without seeming scummy. the only downside is that if it was a maf team, it would be too easy to lynch them all, which leads me to believe that 1 of the maf might've stayed out just in case.

overall, a lot of scum motivation here.

[Miss JJ]

As for my comments about the alliance thing. My take is that several of these players know each other, have played together, and were playing around. Now, if I really think there is some sort of serious alliance going on I will definitely take note and be very interested.

Elaborate.

Assuming sarcasm here. I explained my reason. I could care less if you think it was elaborate or not.

[Acronach]

As for my comments about the alliance thing. My take is that several of these players know each other, have played together, and were playing around. Now, if I really think there is some sort of serious alliance going on I will definitely take note and be very interested.

Elaborate.

Assuming sarcasm here. I explained my reason. I could care less if you think it was elaborate or not.

>someone asking you to elaborate
>sarcasm
>-.-

[Miss JJ]

I've begun watching the first season and it's suprisingly enjoyable thus far. It could do with a little bit less of the script revolving around romance though.

Get used to it.

[ToastyToast]

Not elaborate. Elaborate (like, expand your point)

[Miss JJ]

Oh, thanks. I misunderstood.

As for my comments about the alliance thing. My take is that several of these players know each other, have played together, and were playing around. Now, if I really think there is some sort of serious alliance going on I will definitely take note and be very interested.

Elaborate.

I'm not sure how else to say this. I haven't ever seen a serious "alliance" being used in these games so I assumed you were joking. That's why I made the "cliquey" comment, because it seems like so many of you know each other and it felt like a clique to me. Still does, but that's beside the point.

From what I am reading, it seems that voting blocks or alliances are actually used? It's foreign to me. If I thought people were seriously doing this, I would want to know the motivation behind it. It would seem too obvious for the whole alliance to be scum but could possibly be a cover to hide behind for at least one or two scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@MoI:

The reason for my vote and comments was two fold. One was because I didn't like being undermined like that, and it was makin' me rage kitteh :X .

The other was reaction testing. I was bored of this RVS "Scooby Gang" bullshit. I wanted to create a polarizing effect and see where people landed.

Jason's response to our spat made my scumdar go PING!, so I voted him.

Is this reasonable enough to you? Do you want me to elaborate further?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI:

The reason for my vote and comments was two fold. One was because I didn't like being undermined like that, and it was makin' me rage kitteh :X .

The other was reaction testing. I was bored of this RVS "Scooby Gang" bullshit. I wanted to create a polarizing effect and see where people landed.

Jason's response to our spat made my scumdar go PING!, so I voted him.

Is this reasonable enough to you? Do you want me to elaborate further?

Nope, that's more or less exactly what I expected you were doing but wanted confirmation to help bolster my read.

[Locke Lamora]

Good call, MoI.

Unvote; Vote: Jason

Not going to play outguess the mod on the 'Demonic Townie' front. Acronach and Edmund also not looking good now, Acronach for that miller vote hop and Edmund for overselling his Llamarble case. Liking LLD a lot.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@MoI you're still using the voting block outside of RVS? That's not scummy... not scummy at all [/sarcasm]

-twitch-

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not going to play outguess the mod on the 'Demonic Townie' front. Acronach and Edmund also not looking good now, Acronach for that miller vote hop and Edmund for overselling his Llamarble case. Liking LLD a lot.

Overall I’m agreeing with your general reads here. I’m wary to some degree about Llama but that may be playstyle related. If I had to choose a second target currently between Acro and Edmund I’d choose Edmund myself for his focus on the wrong areas of my Miller concern and his ‘case’ on Llama (which I thought was forced).

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1. Fair enough. Though if you have a gut feeling that Llarmable is lyncher with Jason as his target why vote Jason?

Because I have gut feeling it is possible doesn’t make it probable. Even if it is a Lyncher on a Scum target certainly isn’t unusual (see the already linked Lost Season 1 for that). And my read on Jason currently is scum so I’m not going to worry too much about the lyncher possibilities.

3. I never mentioned that it wasn't a possibility just that I don't believe it's expected in this setup. At the moment I believe the risks of a mass name-claim outweight the possible benefits though.

Fair enough reasoning. I honestly don’t see any tangible benefits to Town anyway as the Buffyverse has enough source material I’d be willing to be scum have fully provided fake-claims. Either that or Smarg is a smart cookie and garbled the traditional flavors when determining Mafia.

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first of all: 3-4 people, just about the right size of a maf team. if it was a maf team, it would be a good excuse to wagon on someone without seeming scummy. the only downside is that if it was a maf team, it would be too easy to lynch them all, which leads me to believe that 1 of the maf might've stayed out just in case.

overall, a lot of scum motivation here.

Sure, you can invent some wild scum motivation for any situation. The heart of my question is this – is the action more likely to come from scum than Town? If the answer is No it’s not a valid scum-tell (this is the Vollkan principle which I happen to ascribe to).

@Acro

– who are Toasty’s partners if he is scum.

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From what I am reading, it seems that voting blocks or alliances are actually used? It's foreign to me. If I thought people were seriously doing this, I would want to know the motivation behind it. It would seem too obvious for the whole alliance to be scum but could possibly be a cover to hide behind for at least one or two scum.

Yes, they are used from time to time. The premise of the block works as such – you gather a group of people you think you will be able to work harmoniously with. The group discusses issues and votes as a group.

The Town advantage to doing this is as such –

1. If all members are Town you have a group dynamic in place that is very beneficial to covering blind-spots and preventing Tunneling or other negative Town behaviors.
2. If a member is Scum they are forced to work with multiple Townies and keep their votes in line. It handcuffs Scum in the group.

The only time I’ve seen it explode is when a three person group was formed with two scum.

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[farside22]

And what are these cliquey Scooby Gangs about?

Anti-Buffy watcher right here ^. People who haven't watch the show make me sad.




You’ve been around long enough to know alignment in one game isn’t dependant at all on another. That said even if it was true wouldn’t it be preferable to have both of us in a Voting Block with yourself and Dekes to help you assess our alignment?

Duh. Doesn't mean I trust you. Besides if you are town voting you and getting you to open up is like a gift. I get great results and find scum better.

Could be tempted to see what she said as a scumslip about moving from a townblock....it is something I will be keeping my eye on in the future.

unvote
vote:Lady Lambdadelta

I think she is soulless

what?

Something like that.
I found MOI mildly scummy for his proposed alliance, then LLD posted ewwbadlogic & her 'town bloc' possibleslip.
She explained herself okay and MOI's wagon seemed bigger / more productive and I figured if LLD was scum MOI was probably scum too as badlogicked spats feel bussy.
Then MOI pointed out Toastbehavior that had previously bothered me, so MOI got townpoints for wavelengthsharing.

Why was MOI's proposed alliance scummy? Why does this make them both look scummy?
What was it that Toast did that looked scummy?



MOI: I thought TT stated he needed clarification what his role meant and that the mod wasn't confirming his suspicion thinking it would break the set up.

Stated here:

I did not claim in the first post because I was asking the mod for clarification. She couldn't say much out of fear that it would wreck the setup.

Edmund: What did you find that TT did was scummy. Post 79 doesn't say what you found scummy except holding back a name that by defination for Buffy universe would look to be a scummy name.



Regfan is so town it hurts. I found Edmunds comment in post 79 riding along.
MOI is town
Jason is scum
LLD is town
Edmund is scum

Arco jumping on the TT wagon for the reason he gave comes off scummy. So far nothing has changed my views on him.

LL, meh. Nothing of interest, no real scum hunting.

unvote:
vote: Jason

I completely agree with LLD post about Jason's fence sitting.

[farside22]

bolding would have been a good thing.

unvote:
vote: Jason

[Miss JJ]

And what are these cliquey Scooby Gangs about?

Anti-Buffy watcher right here ^. People who haven't watch the show make me sad.

No need for sadness. I didn't say I don't know what Scooby Gangs are.

[Miss JJ]

From what I am reading, it seems that voting blocks or alliances are actually used? It's foreign to me. If I thought people were seriously doing this, I would want to know the motivation behind it. It would seem too obvious for the whole alliance to be scum but could possibly be a cover to hide behind for at least one or two scum.

Yes, they are used from time to time. The premise of the block works as such – you gather a group of people you think you will be able to work harmoniously with. The group discusses issues and votes as a group.

The Town advantage to doing this is as such –

1. If all members are Town you have a group dynamic in place that is very beneficial to covering blind-spots and preventing Tunneling or other negative Town behaviors.
2. If a member is Scum they are forced to work with multiple Townies and keep their votes in line. It handcuffs Scum in the group.

The only time I’ve seen it explode is when a three person group was formed with two scum.

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Ah, okay. Well, it makes sense I just didn't know it existed before. The site I generally play on is very different from this one.