OPEN 310 - Medical Mafia - TOWN WIN


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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:54 pm

Post by Hoppster »

chkflip wrote:I think it worked out pretty well in the previous game of this fashion that I was in (see link), but you're entitled to your opinion. I also understand where you're coming from with the whole "let's PL the VI," but we don't have a big enough playerlist for all that.

So, care to share why you opened with that?

At no point have I gone "OHH LET'S PL THE VI".

We can discuss all my opening shenanigans in further detail just as soon as you do what I ask. If you feel I have been pushing for a Policy Lynch, we can discuss that just as soon as you do what I ask. If you feel that outright claiming is much better than hypo-cop, you can argue your case just as soon as you do what I ask.

One of your points was "It's stifling discussion" - but as shown, we'll have PLENTY to discuss after you just satisfy my demands, whether I am wrong or right. I may very well be a complete idiot, but on the off-chance that I am NOT being a complete idiot, there is NOTHING to be lost by just following what I'm saying.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:08 am

Post by chkflip »

Well, through this discussion, you've gotten my answers. Sorry they're not formatted like you like but they're quite obviously there.

So... still waiting on that.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:54 am

Post by Hoppster »

Yeah, okay, so, sorry to everybody about me being such a huge spoilsport.

Checking over the thread, I have realised that DK escaped answering a, which is disappointing. The whole point of it was to do it with minimal discussion though, and with chk's huge rant, getting an answer from DK now would be useless. So, thanks for that, chk.


Got a few more questions for specific people.
Only the people I am asking should answer.



@ jilynne - What makes you think Quilford not confirming is null?


@ chk - You're clearly very suspicious of me, so why no vote?


@ DK:
DeityKabuto wrote:Hopster town credits drained

What did you mean by this?


@ moratorium:
Moratorium wrote:e. N (assuming we're thinking along the same lines)

What lines were you thinking along (
wait until jilynne has answered her question
, ta)?



chkflip wrote:So... still waiting on that.

On which bit exactly?

I never called for a Policy Lynch. DK was simply the first non-Hoppster non-Quilford wagon I saw.



Okay, hypo-doc'ing.

Basically, I believe we should go in a circle (as previously mentioned), with nobody being hypo-doc'd more than once, because it greatly narrows down the possibilities if only one person claims to hypo-doc each person.

Otherwise, 2 people hypo-doc 1 person. That person does not die. This tells us
nothing
, essentially. There are so many possibilities.

1 could be CPR, 1 could be quack.
1 could be a paranoid doc, 1 could be a normal doc.
1 could be a paranoid doc, 1 could be a naive doc.
1 could be a paranoid doc, 1 could be a weak doc.
1 could be a naive doc, 1 could be a normal doc.
1 could be a naive doc, 1 could be a weak doc.
1 could be normal doc, 1 could be quack.
1 could be a normal doc, 1 could be a weak doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be normal doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be naive doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be paranoid doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be weak doc.
Both could be scum who chose to NK somebody else.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a normal doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a paranoid doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a CPR doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a normal doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a naive doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a weak doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a paranoid doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a nurse.

There's probably more that I've missed. But you get the idea.
There are
probably
even more possibilities with 3 people hypo-doc'ing.

And then this leads onto the idea of just straight up claiming results post-flip. If Person X says he doc'd Person Y, and Person Y is still alive, all scum have to do is say they also doc'd Person Y. Because that opens up the multitude of possibilities as shown above.


I have mixed feelings on the nurse claiming. What chk said is true, I would expect the Nurse to die N1. However, this will be informative, because it will tell us more information about the person who ended up hypo-doc'ing the nurse and what sanity they could be.

It also prevents nasty lylo situations where somebody claims nurse. If the nurse is still alive, they CC. If it
is
the nurse, scum could CC. This puts us in a horrible 50/50, which I really want to avoid. Thus I think it better for nurse to claim now (scum are also less likely to CC now, I would expect, but if they do we catch one scum).

Reminder: Nurse should not claim yet while we're still discussing this.



So, plenty to discuss, everybody.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:07 am

Post by Quilford »

If it's agreed we hypodoc, which I am 200% for, I think every player should hypodoc the player directly below them in the playerlist (obviously I'll hypodoc Amrun). This stops scum from potentially building strategies to 'cheat' the hypodoc.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:14 am

Post by Hoppster »

Quilford wrote:If it's agreed we hypodoc, which I am 200% for, I think every player should hypodoc the player directly below them in the playerlist (obviously I'll hypodoc Amrun). This stops scum from potentially building strategies to 'cheat' the hypodoc.

Yep, this is what I was thinking.

I was also considering a 'popcorn style' hypo-doc (each person hypo-doc's the person they popcorn to), but the player list is probably the better way.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:19 am

Post by Moratorium »

Hoppster wrote:
@ moratorium:
Moratorium wrote:
e. N (assuming we're thinking along the same lines)

What lines were you thinking along (wait until jilynne has answered her question, ta)?


Not sure why you need her to go first, so....

There was a point where Quilford was the only person who'd yet to confirm according to the tally, and some mention of the nurse PM needing to be resent and the recipient needing to reconfirm. You could infer that Quilford was the one the nurse PM was being sent to based on that, but you could just as easily infer that the mod didn't make it obvious by way of the tally who the recipient was. So I think it's a null tell.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:28 am

Post by Hoppster »

As an addendum to my arguments against straight-up claiming here: straight-up claiming also means it is likely that two town docs will target the same person, and again we're left in a situation of minimal information from that (as shown in the huge number of possibilities for their sanities/alignments should the person survive).

Hypo-doc'ing just basically prevents the scenario of two people doc'ing the same person and that person surviving, which is basically a waste of a night imo.


P-Edit: DAMNIT MORATORIUM (wow, I took a long time typing this out.)

Now she can just sheep your logic. >>

Not what I was thinking, though, FWIW. I will reveal once jilynne has answered.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:38 am

Post by Amrun »

I also said it was null, ftr.

Hypodoc still a yes from me. 1st night doing the playerlist thing is okay but at some point we need to move away from that, asap.

If the nurse claims, I'd rather it be d2 so we have some interactions to build off of.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:40 am

Post by Quilford »

Just randomize the playerlist when necessary. The Nurse could do it.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:41 am

Post by Hoppster »

Amrun wrote:I also said it was null, ftr.

Hypodoc still a yes from me. 1st night doing the playerlist thing is okay but at some point we need to move away from that, asap.

If the nurse claims, I'd rather it be d2 so we have some interactions to build off of.

Yeah, I know. However, you didn't add the "if I'm thinking along the same lines as you" bit that Moratorium added, and you didn't look like you were just blindly sheeping as Jilynne did.

Problem with Nurse claiming D2 is that we could be in lylo tomorrow - 9 alive atm, but then 3 potential night kills (CPR, Quack, Scum) + lynch. And that's the whole situation I want to avoid, the nurse lylo CC-shenanigans.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:54 am

Post by Amrun »

Does a quck doc kill his target? I thought it just didn't work on him.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:05 am

Post by Hoppster »

AntB wrote:
Setup Information

Roles:


Slightly different to the wiki for some roles' effects.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:25 am

Post by Amrun »

Oh I see.

So, potentially, the weak, quack, and cpr docs could all die tonight, hoo boy. Plus a potential scumkill.

Our lynch today needs to not suck.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:28 am

Post by Amrun »

Worst case scenario, we lose n1.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:28 am

Post by Amrun »

Also, maybe nurse claims before the hammer?
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:34 am

Post by Hoppster »

Oh, crap, and the weak doc too. Hadn't thought about that.

We could actually lose if we mislynch today.

7:2 -> 6:2


Weak doc targets scum, CPR & Quack doc target town

6:2 -> 3:2


Scum NK target is not the Paranoid/Normal/CPR Doc protection, or Doc protecting NK target gets RB'd by Paranoid Doc

3:2 -> 2:2


o.0

Well, that's still pretty damn unlikely... right?

I'll think this through a bit more.


@ Mod: Can the Mafia NK be RB'd - do the Mafia have to choose a member to send in the NK? It's not clear in the sample PMs whether the Mafia actually have to designate somebody to carry out the kill.



P-Edit: Ninja'd.

Good idea though. Nurse only claims before the hammer, ie. after the person being hammered has claimed.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:45 am

Post by AntB »

VOTE COUNT - 9 alive, 5 to Lynch

DeityKabuto
[L-2] <- Hoppster - Quilford - HellloooNewman

Hopster
<- tim_hill1990
Not Voting
<- DeityKabuto, chkflip, jilynne1991, Moratoriumm, Amrun

DEADLINE

THURSDAY 23 JUNE 2011 23:59:59 UTC
Countdown Timer

---

Usual method for the mafia kill is the killer is the member who submits. The mafia kill can be role-blocked by the Paranoid Doctor.

---
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:05 am

Post by Moratorium »

So, who are we waiting on at this point?
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:21 am

Post by chkflip »

^This is why it was stupid, Hopps. You have people waiting... for what? Stifling discussion.

Hypo-doc'ing is nothing but more WIFOM and allows scum even more wiggle room than actually claiming our real doctor protections because there are only so many scenarios that can happen. We're going to cross-protect, stop kills, create kills, etc etc. Hypo-doc'ing gets us nowhere with that but some fake/worthless discussion that fluffs the thread.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:23 am

Post by DeityKabuto »

What did you mean by this?


It means your townliness is deducted.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:29 am

Post by Moratorium »

Deducted? Deducted means subtracted, so what are you saying? And who are you quoting?
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:30 am

Post by Moratorium »

Or did you mean deduced? (and I'm still unsure what you are saying, tbh).
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:34 am

Post by Amrun »

Deity Kabuto, please attempt English.

Everyone else, discussion time is go, if you hadn't figured it out.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:03 am

Post by Hoppster »

chkflip wrote:Hypo-doc'ing is nothing but more WIFOM and allows scum even more wiggle room than actually claiming our real doctor protections because there are only so many scenarios that can happen. We're going to cross-protect, stop kills, create kills, etc etc. Hypo-doc'ing gets us nowhere with that but some fake/worthless discussion that fluffs the thread.

How does hypo-doc'ing create any more WIFOM than claiming real doctor protections?

It's just claiming real doctor protections... but in advance.

I fail to see how that creates more WIFOM.

Claiming real doc protections is, as I've said before, giving us practically no information, because the chances are high more than one person will claim to protect the same person.


Spoiler: Possible scenarios if 2 people claim to target Player X (alive)
1 could be CPR, 1 could be quack.
1 could be a paranoid doc, 1 could be a normal doc.
1 could be a paranoid doc, 1 could be a naive doc.
1 could be a paranoid doc, 1 could be a weak doc.
1 could be a naive doc, 1 could be a normal doc.
1 could be a naive doc, 1 could be a weak doc.
1 could be normal doc, 1 could be quack.
1 could be a normal doc, 1 could be a weak doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be normal doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be naive doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be paranoid doc.
1 could be nurse, 1 could be weak doc.
Both could be scum who chose to NK somebody else.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a normal doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a paranoid doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a CPR doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a normal doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a naive doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a weak doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a paranoid doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a nurse.


Spoiler: Possible scenarios if 2 people claim to protect Player Y (dead)
Player Y, a weak doc, could have targeted scum.
Both could be scum (who chose to NK that person)
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a naive doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a weak doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be a nurse.
One could be scum who chose to NK that person, the other could be quack doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a CPR doc.
One could be scum who chose to NK somebody else, the other could be a quack doc.
One could be a quack doc, the other could be a naive doc.
One could be a quack doc, the other could be a nurse.
One could be a CPR doc, the other could be a naive doc.
One could be a CPR doc, the other could be a nurse.
One could be a CPR doc, the other could be a quack doc, and then scum NK'd that person.
One could be a normal doc, the other could be a quack doc, and then scum NK'd that person.
One could be a weak doc, the other could be a quack doc, and then scum NK'd that person.
One could be a nurse, the other could be a quack doc, and then scum NK'd that person.
One could be a naive doc, the other could be a quack doc, and then scum NK'd that person.
One could be a naive doc, the other could be a nurse, and then scum NK'd that person.
One could be a paranoid doc, the other could be a quack doc, and then scum NK'd that person.


There are almost certainly scenarios I have missed off in both those situations.

Claiming protections the next day is useless unless we somehow manage to get both scum to claim first, because all scum have to do is then parrot the target of whoever has claimed before them.


Amrun wrote:Everyone else, discussion time is go, if you hadn't figured it out.

Yup.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:03 am

Post by Hoppster »

DK, how come you still haven't commented on the hypo-doc situation yet?
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