Mini 1183: Mafiamatical Mathia - Game over!

[Juls]

Because there is no role that includes self lynching in your win condition in a mini normal.

[Oopidstay]

Self-voting does not imply intent to self-lynch.

[Juls]

Are you mafia oopidstay?

[implosion]

Oopidstay is town.
Discuss.

question for all: do you find it more difficult to random vote when you are scum, or when you are town?

Neither in particular. I don't find random voting difficult.

[Oopidstay]

Are you mafia oopidstay?

Nope. Are you?

[Juls]

@oopidstay: No

@implosion: Evidence requested.

[implosion]

His lingering selfvote. It is one of two things.
1) it comes from scum. Unlikely. Why? Because scum are overly paranoid. With 3 people voting for him, he would unvote at this point if he were scum. It could also be WIFOM, but that's somewhat unlikely.
2) it comes from town. He's fishing for reactions, and looking for what people will say about his selfvote.

Juls; how does a selfvote imply mafia? You're saying that if he's town, he's voting a confirmed townie; isn't he voting a confirmed person of his own alignment regardless of that alignment? Why does that make him more likely to be mafia?

[Juls]

1) is a pile of WIFOM (as you indicate)
2) what people feel about self-voting has nothing to do with alignment. There are much better ways of fishing for reaction then being idiotic. It is generally considered a votable offense (to me at least) if you self vote, unless it is a self-hammer as scum.

Right now, it's the worst vote out there. I have no reason to move my vote until he proves himself.

[Oopidstay]

2) what people feel about self-voting has nothing to do with alignment.

So...why'm I scum, again?

[Oopidstay]

EBWOP: Since I've not been scum in a mafia game, yet, I can't really answer don's question.

[don_johnson]

the rvs self vote is a discussion starter, but the ensuing discussion generally ends up being something more at home in a theory thread than in a game. at least thats my experience. self voting can actually be a useful tool if done right, but i think it takes experience to know when and how. it can help out regardless of your own alignment.

in short:

rvs self vote is null, anti-town. juls has every right to say this:

Right now, it's the worst vote out there. I have no reason to move my vote until he proves himself.

oop made his bed.

in other news, this

Because scum are overly paranoid.

is not a fact. please don't phrase it as though it is logic. you're 1 and 2 are probably just as likely(hence, null).

oopid: why did you vote yourself?

[implosion]

1) is a pile of WIFOM (as you indicate)
2) what people feel about self-voting has nothing to do with alignment. There are much better ways of fishing for reaction then being idiotic. It is generally considered a votable offense (to me at least) if you self vote, unless it is a self-hammer as scum.

Right now, it's the worst vote out there. I have no reason to move my vote until he proves himself.

1; it theoretically could be scum wifoming. It doesn't look like that to me. It both looks genuine and is one third of a wagon on him that could potentially lead to an accidental lynch. If he were scum, he would likely be paranoid about something like this and wind up unvoting shortly after he voted. If he had done so, I wouldn't have a townread on him. On the other hand, if he's town, he would be less afraid since if something like that happens, it would provide the town with good info (i.e. hammering without claim/etc on an RVS wagon would be scummy).
2; talking about you rather than oopidstay, the way in which you are attacking him is actually looking scummy to me. The last sentence of your second point looks very contrived; it seems like you're voting him because people find selfvoting to be a good way to justify a vote (as is shown by don's last post), not because you think it makes him legitimately scummy. Especially since you admit that WIFOM is, in the end, involved - and therefore this alone isn't enough to figure out oopid's alignment.

is not a fact. please don't phrase it as though it is logic. you're 1 and 2 are probably just as likely(hence, null).

I basically said why I think town is more likely above. And no, there are very rarely facts in the world of mafia. However (as I justified above) oopid's behavior makes more sense as town. I agree that juls has every right to vote him for selfvoting; however, I find it somewhat scummy. It's an easy vote to make.

inb4 someone posts a picture of a chainsaw

[Juls]

So...why'm I scum, again?

I wouldn't declare anyone scum on page 2 unless they did something that was very blatant. There is this thing called an unvote if I need it. I am not ready to do that though.

When I come in and see something fishy, I am not wasting an RVS vote when I see something that at best is anti-town (i.e., your self vote).

I briefly skimmed your past games. I see
1) no where did you vote yourself or anyone else voting themselves
2) no discussions that you have been apart of that discuss self voting.

This tells me that you are not reaction fishing and you very well may have been doing it to be funny or you didn't know the repercussions of doing this as scum or town. implosions attempt to make you auto-town is bad or buddying, not sure which yet. Plus I never like when people feed people excuses for their bad play.

P-edit:
implosion, Oopid seems somewhat "new" to the game of mafia despite his join date. I gather this is his 3rd or 4th game. As town, I would probably pull my vote off myself quickly and say "oh, I didn't realize that was a bad thing to do" after it was explained to me. As scum, I would probably argue that my actions were not bad and therefore no remedy is necessary (i.e. an unvote). The point is, you don't know what

oopidstay

would do. You only know what you would do in this situation.

[implosion]

juls: i'm not attempting to make him "auto-town" - I'm stating a town read on him. P-edit is a fair point to an extent; but you really can't say what you would do in that situation. You aren't the kind of person who would put yourself in a situation like this in the first place. I understand the kind of thought process that would lead to a situation like this (to an extent, it'll be cleared up a bit by oopid's answer to don's question). The kind of person that selfvotes as scum generally (probably) wouldn't argue that it's not a bad move as scum, as that would make them look conspicuous and the point of an RVS selfvote as scum is to make yourself look like town (or wifom) while there is still little risk of pressure. I would expect a scum whose selfvote accrued more votes to go "whoa, whoa" and unvote, possibly followed by accusations on the people that voted for them.

Regardless, I definitely want to see the answer to don's question.

[Oopidstay]

@ don: It was for reactions. I would've preferred to wait a bit longer, but it's starting to get to the point where addition reactions won't be as helpful. Besides, I think what I got is good enough to work with.

Unvote: Oopidstay. Vote: TwistedSpoon

Out of all the responses to the self-vote, his feels the most contrived. Voting me because I made a "silly" vote in a stage of the game generally regarded as silly? C'mon.

Juls I'm actually leaning more town on. Her disgust with my self-vote is understandable and much better than Twisted's.

Implosion, I'm actually not getting good vibes from. His defense of me is awfully strong for early-game information, and I'm not all that keen on how he keeps leaving room for changing stances in #38. (Sorry if that doesn't parse well, I'm having trouble wording it.)

don didn't do enough with the self-vote for me to get anything out of it.

[Oopidstay]

EBWOP: ...where additional reactions...

[Twistedspoon]

Out of all the responses to the self-vote, his feels the most contrived. V

Omgus much?

My point was and is that the sooner we get out of RVS the sooner we can do serious scumhunting

self voting applies pressure on no-one and we get no nearer out of RVS

therefore self-voting is a pointless anchor into the RVS and offers no momentum to the game (by itself at least)

end case

[Morthas]

Omgus much?
My point was and is that the sooner we get out of RVS the sooner we can do serious scumhunting
self voting applies pressure on no-one and we get no nearer out of RVS
therefore self-voting is a pointless anchor into the RVS and offers no momentum to the game (by itself at least)
end case

Look above, it just got us out of RVS.

[Twistedspoon]

Omgus much?
My point was and is that the sooner we get out of RVS the sooner we can do serious scumhunting
self voting applies pressure on no-one and we get no nearer out of RVS
therefore self-voting is a pointless anchor into the RVS and offers no momentum to the game

(by itself at least)

end case

Look above, it just got us out of RVS.

notice the '(by itself at least)'
sure, we might have got out of RVS (only time will tell) but that's because I picked up upon the self-vote

It took until Juls and myself to notice how vote-worthy it was
interessant

[Morthas]

notice the '(by itself at least)'
sure, we might have got out of RVS (only time will tell) but that's because I picked up upon the self-vote

It took until Juls and myself to notice how vote-worthy it was
interessant

It is completely possible for someone to do something in order to gauge reactions soo yeeeah.

[Hoppster]

Day 1, Votecount 3

theplague42 - 1

[L - 4]

(Kalofer)

Twistedspoon - 2

[L - 3]

(implosion, Oopidstay)

Kalofer - 0

[L - 5]

Morthas - 0

[L - 5]

Juls - 1

[L - 4]

(don_johnson)

implosion - 1

[L - 4]

(Morthas)

Wickedestjr - 0

[L - 5]

don_johnson - 0

[L - 5]

Oopidstay - 2

[L - 3]

(Twistedspoon, Juls)

No Lynch - 0

[L - 5]

Not Voting - 2 (theplague42, Wickedestjr)

Deadline: Wednesday June 15th at 21:00 BST

Time left:

(expired on 2011-06-15 16:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Juls is V/LA Thursday-Saturday.

[Twistedspoon]

notice the '(by itself at least)'
sure, we might have got out of RVS (only time will tell) but that's because I picked up upon the self-vote

It took until Juls and myself to notice how vote-worthy it was
interessant

It is completely possible for someone to do something in order to gauge reactions soo yeeeah.

okay then

so what conclusions could be drawn from it?

people either notice the self vote or don't. I don't think either point directly to scum

[Kalofer]

okkkkk...After that exchange I'm leaning town on oopid and juls. It looks most likely to me that Oopid is a townie gauging reactions through what is deemed as obviscum behaviour, juls is a townie responding as expected to that behaviour.
The whole subject you're debating about is WIFOM but I'm leaning towards the WIFOM that says oopid is town because I also don't think scum would bother attracting attention to themselves. Implosion I have as null/town because I again doubt that scum would rush to defend someone whether they be town or scum so soon after RVS.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Twistedspoon
I think oopid has a good enough reason to vote for you. And what you later said about you bringing us out of RVS better be sarcasm.
Also FoS: Morthas, nice job pointing out to TS that we're out of RVS, now how about you actually do something instead of just sitting back? Also, is it me or do your avatars get worse and worse as you change them?

@Don, I don't think it would make a difference, being a random vote but I guess I can't really say so since I've only played town so far.

[Twistedspoon]

my attitude to the self vote is inherently the same as Juls' as what else could be a problem with it?

[Twistedspoon]

I've explained why self voting is not the best way to gauge reactions
most attitudes are common among all factions and are either

1) that's pointless. Null tell
2) Look at that modesty. town tell
3) Self voting as to not vote another player and stay in everyone's good books. Scum tell

The town has varying opinions and any combination of these attitudes are seen in both town and scum

now tell me how a self-vote was a reaction gauge rather than a waste of pressure and momentum?