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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:29 am

Post by Amrun »

GreyICE wrote:
Amrun wrote:I thought Nocmen claimed scum according to you. Are you ever going to explain that or show conviction in your reads, Grey?

Sure, soon as there stops being MULTIPLE SCUM I'll be happy to pick one and stick to him.

I mean unless you have a "Lone Scumman" theory you'd like to share.


No, seriously, how did Nocmen claim scum? I think he is, so this is relevant to my interests.

Vollkan: it was more about the wording and the combination with the RV. Her waffling explanation of having a null (?) read on me demonstrates that she read enough to have reads and be able to generate them, and yet she makes an RV and expresses no suspicions. Why? It makes no sense. Also, it didn't seem to be a nullread - it seemed to be a town read with a couple of loopholes to allow for backtracking.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:44 am

Post by vollkan »

Amrun wrote:
Vollkan: it was more about the wording and the combination with the RV. Her waffling explanation of having a null (?) read on me demonstrates that she read enough to have reads and be able to generate them, and yet she makes an RV and expresses no suspicions. Why? It makes no sense. Also, it didn't seem to be a nullread - it seemed to be a town read with a couple of loopholes to allow for backtracking.


Amrun+5

Two problems with this:
1) She said your actions were scummy, but may have just been a mistake. It's expressed cumbersomely, but she's basically just declaring a nullread. Waffling is bad when it is used to be passive or to cover lack of content. Here, it is just a bad way of expressing things. I can't for the life of me see why you are reading it as scummy,
2) You emphasise the fact that she has a nullread and also RVs. What's the scumtell here? The whole point of RVing is to spark a game. The mere fact that some people have already committed game-relevant actions doesn't negate the appropriateness of RVing - and it certainly doesn't make it scummy.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:48 am

Post by Amrun »

I understand your position, but repsectfully disagree, especially on point 2.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:44 am

Post by Kdub »

Day 1 - Vote Count #6

Amrun (1)
- animorpherv1
Kawaii (0)
-
GreyICE (3)
- Candle Jack, malthusis, StevieT92
Antifinity (0)
-
Candle Jack (1)
- Antifinity
C-Worl (0)
-
kanyeknowsbest (0)
-
Nocmen (1)
- Amrun
Surye (0)
-
Celebloki (0)
-
malthusis (1)
- LobsterCatapult
Starbuck (0)
-
ace5993 (0)
-
drewoftherushes (0)
-
ZeL1nK (0)
-
StevieT92 (6)
- vollkan, GhostWriter, Pomegranate, GreyICE, ZeL1nK, drewoftherushes
GhostWriter (0)
-
SpyreX (0)
-
Kast (3)
- ace5993, Surye, Nocmen
vollkan (0)
-
Pomegranate (0)
-
LobsterCatapult (0)
-
animorpherv1 (2)
- Starbuck, Celebloki
No Lynch (0)
-
Not Voting (5)
- Kawaii, C-Worl, kanyeknowsbest, SpyreX, Kast

23 votes available, 12 votes needed to lynch

Deadline is July 18, ~ 10 am PDT
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:45 am

Post by LobsterCatapult »

vollkan wrote:
Amrun wrote:
Vollkan: it was more about the wording and the combination with the RV. Her waffling explanation of having a null (?) read on me demonstrates that she read enough to have reads and be able to generate them, and yet she makes an RV and expresses no suspicions. Why? It makes no sense. Also, it didn't seem to be a nullread - it seemed to be a town read with a couple of loopholes to allow for backtracking.


Amrun+5

Two problems with this:
1) She said your actions were scummy, but may have just been a mistake. It's expressed cumbersomely, but she's basically just declaring a nullread. Waffling is bad when it is used to be passive or to cover lack of content. Here, it is just a bad way of expressing things. I can't for the life of me see why you are reading it as scummy,
2) You emphasise the fact that she has a nullread and also RVs. What's the scumtell here? The whole point of RVing is to spark a game. The mere fact that some people have already committed game-relevant actions doesn't negate the appropriateness of RVing - and it certainly doesn't make it scummy.


im not too familiar here with your point system, but are you saying that amrun is twisting Pom's interpretation of amrun's cult post, and her rvs fos into something scummy that isn't? because Pom never said what amrun did was scummy, she said it was wierd. to me there is a big difference. to me, at the end pom said that she was cautiously leaning town, also not indicative of me of a pure null tell.

Pomegranate wrote:Amrun- Acted weird with the cult mention (DESPITE reasoning given, still out of place). However, since then he's acted pretty normally, except his focus is to clear that up. I don't like it yet I can't call him scum for it because it's a stupid mistake similar to many I've made as town; I'll cautiously say town now.


the interpretation of Pom's post here seems to be a bit off. to me, i dont see it as a roundabout way to get a null-tell, and i dont mind the rvs vote too much either. i see it as potentially scummy that she finds amrun's way of trying to describe the cult mention as not normal, i mean, what do you find not normal about the way amrun as defended herself? also, there was only 1 post amrun said that wasn't about the cult post, and all amrun did was ask questions to people (the one to ani was pretty bad), and say that she didnt see the case on kast, but didnt like his posts. i don't really like amruns post here, and i dont see why Pom does.

Pom's post gives me a vibe of fencesitting with a caution town label afterwards, it makes me wonder if perhaps there is some distancing going on here between amrun and Pom.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:15 am

Post by GreyICE »

Amrun wrote:No, seriously, how did Nocmen claim scum? I think he is, so this is relevant to my interests.


The point where he went:
"Oh you're a mason, I believe this claim."
"It's stupid to claim that on day 1"
"Therefore I'll vote to lynch you."

It's like flying on autopilot, no town thought processes involved.

Stevie is pretty much the same, except with rolefishing and blatant stupidity thrown in. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but no, he laughed and said he knows what he's doing and rolefished again, so that's just a blatant scum claim.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:19 am

Post by Amrun »

Missed the part where Nocmen said he believed the claim. Cool with my vote.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:23 am

Post by GreyICE »

Nocmen wrote:Masons now too? Why the hell would you out
that fact
for no good reason?

Unvote, Vote: GreyICE
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:29 am

Post by LobsterCatapult »

GreyICE wrote:
Nocmen wrote:Masons now too? Why the hell would you out
that fact
for no good reason?

Unvote, Vote: GreyICE



i missed this too. :oops:

unvote
vote:nocmen


i cant see why town would automatically just take this at face value like this. coupled with his 2 scenarios post afterwards, i think its scummy.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:33 am

Post by Candle Jack »

GreyICE wrote:
Nocmen wrote:Masons now too? Why the hell would you out
that fact
for no good reason?

Unvote, Vote: GreyICE


Not buying it. Especially not after I spotted something earlier in the thread that makes me pretty sure Nocmen is town. (Not going to elaborate, that would be anti-town.)

*goes back to writing wall of text*
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:35 am

Post by Candle Jack »

Oh right, since GreyICE has indicated that his mason claim with me was a joke (a supremely anti-town joke, I should note - DON'T do it again) and the rest of his play indicates he's town, I need to unvote him now.

LobsterCatapult wrote:
GreyICE wrote:
Nocmen wrote:Masons now too? Why the hell would you out
that fact
for no good reason?

Unvote, Vote: GreyICE



i missed this too. :oops:

unvote
vote:nocmen


i cant see why town would automatically just take this at face value like this. coupled with his 2 scenarios post afterwards, i think its scummy.


Actually, better reason. I need to unvote GreyICE because you're scum and need to die.

Seriously, this is newbscum sheeping a good town player if I ever saw it.

Unvote, Vote: LobsterCatapult
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:35 am

Post by Candle Jack »

EBWOP: - Tar
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:56 am

Post by Amrun »

Oh, "the fact" thing is weak, but I still find Nocmen scummy otherwise.

Lobstersheep is very bad - torn between the two.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:24 am

Post by ace5993 »

ZeL1nK wrote:Wait, what? How is Stevie posting useful stuff? He's not actually scum hunting, he's just saying "X is a scum tell" and defending himself.


Scum voting and pressuring people, even for their own agenda, is more useful than scum not doing anything at all. This is because not only does an increase in wagon size increase the chance of getting a useful reaction out of the person the wagon is on, but also because it's easier to analyze the suspected scum, since he then has to make decisions regarding each case. Completely avoiding all the early wagons D1 is extremely scummy, and also dangerous later on if they aren't called out on it.

When you vote you have to think about what purpose the wagon will serve. Will a wagon on Kast, or a wagon on Stevie serve more purpose? In this case, a wagon on Stevie will accomplish very little; he's not going to significantly change his posting style because he's already trying to defend himself. A wagon on Kast will either force Kast to contribute to scumhunting as town or force him out of his comfort zone as scum.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:37 am

Post by Nocmen »

ZeL1nK wrote:Nocmen's #118 looks scummy. The jump onto GI was terrible, and the jump back onto Kast looks insincere. Even apart from the fact GI's claim was a fairly obvious joke, why would you vote for someone who claimed mason? Like, you voted him for 'outing' himself... Really? And come on, you'll give GI the 'benefit of the doubt' that he was joking?

This looks like distancing by Pom. Also explains why Stevie only takes the time to respond to Pom in #137 without even mentioning any of the other people voting for him.

Unvote

VOTE: Stevie

ace wrote:Kast is a priority right now though since Stevie's actually posting useful stuff at the moment.


Wait, what? How is Stevie posting useful stuff? He's not actually scum hunting, he's just saying "X is a scum tell" and defending himself.


It was pure anti-town behavior.

GreyICE wrote:
Nocmen wrote:Masons now too? Why the hell would you out
that fact
for no good reason?

Unvote, Vote: GreyICE


So that implies that I know exactly if the claim was true or not. Please, if I was scum, how would I know about masons?
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:42 am

Post by GreyICE »

Candle Jack wrote:Oh right, since GreyICE has indicated that his mason claim with me was a joke (a supremely anti-town joke, I should note - DON'T do it again) and the rest of his play indicates he's town, I need to unvote him now.

Will not be taking this advice. Why was it anti-town to suggest that someone needs to put his vote somewhere useful?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:43 am

Post by drewoftherushes »

ace5993 wrote:
ZeL1nK wrote:Wait, what? How is Stevie posting useful stuff? He's not actually scum hunting, he's just saying "X is a scum tell" and defending himself.


Scum voting and pressuring people, even for their own agenda, is more useful than scum not doing anything at all. This is because not only does an increase in wagon size increase the chance of getting a useful reaction out of the person the wagon is on, but also because it's easier to analyze the suspected scum, since he then has to make decisions regarding each case. Completely avoiding all the early wagons D1 is extremely scummy, and also dangerous later on if they aren't called out on it.

When you vote you have to think about what purpose the wagon will serve. Will a wagon on Kast, or a wagon on Stevie serve more purpose? In this case, a wagon on Stevie will accomplish very little; he's not going to significantly change his posting style because he's already trying to defend himself. A wagon on Kast will either force Kast to contribute to scumhunting as town or force him out of his comfort zone as scum.


I don't understand speculating on how the pressure of a wagon will alter the way that person posts - we have no idea how Stevie or Kast is going to react to a wagon until it happens, which is why we make it happen in the first place. To speculate that Stevie's posting style won't change is ridiculous.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:44 am

Post by Candle Jack »

GreyICE wrote:
Candle Jack wrote:Oh right, since GreyICE has indicated that his mason claim with me was a joke (a supremely anti-town joke, I should note - DON'T do it again) and the rest of his play indicates he's town, I need to unvote him now.

Will not be taking this advice. Why was it anti-town to suggest that someone needs to put his vote somewhere useful?


It's not what you were trying to do, but how you did it. Savvy?
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:46 am

Post by Candle Jack »

EBWOP: Forgot the -Tar again.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:51 am

Post by GreyICE »

Candle Jack wrote:
GreyICE wrote:
Candle Jack wrote:Oh right, since GreyICE has indicated that his mason claim with me was a joke (a supremely anti-town joke, I should note - DON'T do it again) and the rest of his play indicates he's town, I need to unvote him now.

Will not be taking this advice. Why was it anti-town to suggest that someone needs to put his vote somewhere useful?


It's not what you were trying to do, but how you did it. Savvy?

Not really. You're town I trust day 1 to the level that you might as well be a mason with me, I shan't be voting for you nor vocalizing such today. So it's like 50/50 joke/observation.

Stevie is a lot more scum than LC.

StevieT92 wrote:Bringing up cults is most definitely a scum tell, it is an attempt to derail the D1 discussion. And, even though it was "justified" as a mention of another game, that still was a (fairly successful) attempt to keep us talking about unimportant things. For that reason, I will
Vote: Amrun
. Also, pretty much all of Amrun's posts have been defending himself about this issue, besides one post where he calls the Kast wagon bad - again this is a large post count that really isn't contributing anything pro-town.

I'm not getting a really scummy read of Kast, but I don't think the wagon is completely unfounded, however I wouldn't like it to see it get out of hand.

FoS: GreyIce
for not answering legitimate questions. If you do not get on that it will turn into a vote. I have some questions for you myself:
Why did you choose to claim D1 being completely unprompted? Not that this is necessarily a scum tell I simply don't get your motivation.
Why did you claim your role power without claiming what character you were?


StevieT92 wrote:Town gains nothing by rushing for a quick lynch. Also you really haven't offered any significant criticisms of Kast, besides your sarcastic responses and posting about how much you want him lynched.

StevieT92 wrote:
unvote, vote: GreyIce


Multiple posts, still hasn't answered the many legitimate and direct questions. Instead he did a pointless fake sarcastic claim which serves no purpose. Answer the questions, defend yourself against the points against you. Ignoring them is a sure route to getting lynched. You are doing a good job of scumhunting, and made a good point about Pomegrant's fos and vote. However, ignoring everyone who is criticizing you is very scummy.

As for Amrun, what he did is a scumtell. I'm quite sick of this debate but I believe its a scum tell, and worth a vote at that stage of the game. Not everyone in this game agrees with this, and frankly its been debated to death so I'm going to try and move past it. His recent posts have been good.


This is called the difference between 'looking for scum' and 'looking for things you can call scummy.' This is 100% the latter, and he's already claimed he knows what he's doing and is not a noob with a list of wiki shit.

Your vote would be a LOT more productive on this scumbag.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:53 am

Post by ace5993 »

drewoftherushes wrote:I don't understand speculating on how the pressure of a wagon will alter the way that person posts - we have no idea how Stevie or Kast is going to react to a wagon until it happens, which is why we make it happen in the first place. To speculate that Stevie's posting style won't change is ridiculous.


That's exactly what we should be doing this early in the game, trying to find which wagon will be most useful. For me, if I find two people scummy, if one person is already defending themselves and trying to appear like they are scumhunting while the other is doing absolutely nothing, I'm going to suggest we wagon the one doing absolutely nothing. We can come back to Stevie later.
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:15 am

Post by Candle Jack »

Amrun wrote:Oh, "the fact" thing is weak, but I still find Nocmen scummy otherwise.

Lobstersheep is very bad - torn between the two.


The more Amrun posts, the less town she looks. Only problem is, Stevie is pushing her... bussing?

Major FoS: Amrun


GreyICE wrote:
Candle Jack wrote:
GreyICE wrote:
Candle Jack wrote:Oh right, since GreyICE has indicated that his mason claim with me was a joke (a supremely anti-town joke, I should note - DON'T do it again) and the rest of his play indicates he's town, I need to unvote him now.

Will not be taking this advice. Why was it anti-town to suggest that someone needs to put his vote somewhere useful?


It's not what you were trying to do, but how you did it. Savvy?

Not really. You're town I trust day 1 to the level that you might as well be a mason with me, I shan't be voting for you nor vocalizing such today. So it's like 50/50 joke/observation.

Stevie is a lot more scum than LC.

StevieT92 wrote:Bringing up cults is most definitely a scum tell, it is an attempt to derail the D1 discussion. And, even though it was "justified" as a mention of another game, that still was a (fairly successful) attempt to keep us talking about unimportant things. For that reason, I will
Vote: Amrun
. Also, pretty much all of Amrun's posts have been defending himself about this issue, besides one post where he calls the Kast wagon bad - again this is a large post count that really isn't contributing anything pro-town.

I'm not getting a really scummy read of Kast, but I don't think the wagon is completely unfounded, however I wouldn't like it to see it get out of hand.

FoS: GreyIce
for not answering legitimate questions. If you do not get on that it will turn into a vote. I have some questions for you myself:
Why did you choose to claim D1 being completely unprompted? Not that this is necessarily a scum tell I simply don't get your motivation.
Why did you claim your role power without claiming what character you were?


StevieT92 wrote:Town gains nothing by rushing for a quick lynch. Also you really haven't offered any significant criticisms of Kast, besides your sarcastic responses and posting about how much you want him lynched.

StevieT92 wrote:
unvote, vote: GreyIce


Multiple posts, still hasn't answered the many legitimate and direct questions. Instead he did a pointless fake sarcastic claim which serves no purpose. Answer the questions, defend yourself against the points against you. Ignoring them is a sure route to getting lynched. You are doing a good job of scumhunting, and made a good point about Pomegrant's fos and vote. However, ignoring everyone who is criticizing you is very scummy.

As for Amrun, what he did is a scumtell. I'm quite sick of this debate but I believe its a scum tell, and worth a vote at that stage of the game. Not everyone in this game agrees with this, and frankly its been debated to death so I'm going to try and move past it. His recent posts have been good.


This is called the difference between 'looking for scum' and 'looking for things you can call scummy.' This is 100% the latter, and he's already claimed he knows what he's doing and is not a noob with a list of wiki shit.

Your vote would be a LOT more productive on this scumbag.


Was rereading Mafia 92 - most informative game that, Stevie got recruited there. Also, I missed this post while I was RAEGing about Kast.

StevieT92 wrote:Bringing up cults is most definitely a scum tell, it is an attempt to derail the D1 discussion. And, even though it was "justified" as a mention of another game, that still was a (fairly successful) attempt to keep us talking about unimportant things. For that reason, I will
Vote: Amrun
. Also, pretty much all of Amrun's posts have been defending himself about this issue, besides one post where he calls the Kast wagon bad - again this is a large post count that really isn't contributing anything pro-town.

I'm not getting a really scummy read of Kast, but I don't think the wagon is completely unfounded, however I wouldn't like it to see it get out of hand.

What is a RNG? never heard that term before or maybe i am rusty.


FoS: GreyIce
for not answering legitimate questions. If you do not get on that it will turn into a vote. I have some questions for you myself:
Why did you choose to claim D1 being completely unprompted? Not that this is necessarily a scum tell I simply don't get your motivation.
Why did you claim your role power without claiming what character you were?


On a completely unrelated note, I will be going to the beach this thursday and friday so I will not post on either of those days.

Steve


That's what I get for skimming over that post. Look at that wishy-washy reaction to Kast. You're right, he's scum, let's run him up.

Unvote, Vote: StevieT92


---

Short form of my current thoughts on Kast: Playstyle is 180 degrees off of the rest of the game (and he's the kind of player who will attack for not following preferred playstyle - I know, I know, that's pot meet kettle coming from me). His reads are also very, very wrong. However, he's actually scumhunting and probably town.

---

Ludi, where are you? My eyes are starting to glaze over here, I want some fresh insight.

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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:25 am

Post by GhostWriter »

StevieT92 wrote:@GhostWriter I didn't like his response, here it was:

GreyICE wrote:Also, how many games have you played before Stevie? Legit question, because I'm curious as to you knowing what you do to people who are tracked or watched targeting a night kill. Watched really makes it a 'throw in the towel' on me trying to just play super town and get night killed fast as I can be town enough not to get copped/tracked but I can't dodge a watcher.


Firstly, the entire post is trying to answer a question with a question. That is scummy behavior, I'm not going to answer the question for you.

Secondly, he again ignores my second question asking why he didn't reveal his flavor name. This is a legitimate question, and if more people jump on the wagon then we should force him to reveal this - that's really up to you guys though. This is also scummy - even if he doesn't want to reveal his flavor name (there are valid reasons for feeling this way, i just wanted to hear what he had to say) there is no reason he should be ducking the question.

I also think that if this wagon for GreyIce grows we should eventually demand to hear this flavor name.

The second point first: It was covered, actually, though admittedly not first by GI (though I think he did get into it at some point). And it was obvious. He had no reason to go ahead and claim the name. Scum may accidentally use the nameclaim if they need one later and it's fishing for a rolename that you actually really don't need yet. Miller D1 claims are protown. Miller rolename claims D1 without enough suspicion on the player are downright odd. And scummy.

The first point: You said he didn't answer, not that you didn't like his answer. Big difference. Huge difference. The misrepping kind of huge. You don't like the answer, fine, then say so. However, he says that he claimed because he cannot hide his ability if there's a watcher in the setup and doesn't want to cause confusion when they see multiple people in a result. Is it typed that way? Nope. But reading between the lines is a wonderful ability to have.

Also, you're right: if GI's wagon gets to the size that he becomes a strong lynch possibility, his rolename should be claimed. It was never to that point, though, so why mention that? Just makes you look even worse.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:29 am

Post by Nocmen »

ace5993 wrote:
drewoftherushes wrote:I don't understand speculating on how the pressure of a wagon will alter the way that person posts - we have no idea how Stevie or Kast is going to react to a wagon until it happens, which is why we make it happen in the first place. To speculate that Stevie's posting style won't change is ridiculous.


That's exactly what we should be doing this early in the game, trying to find which wagon will be most useful. For me, if I find two people scummy, if one person is already defending themselves and trying to appear like they are scumhunting while the other is doing absolutely nothing, I'm going to suggest we wagon the one doing absolutely nothing. We can come back to Stevie later.



I agree with this, and the quote you reply to. Kast has handled the pressure very well so far with the votes. Then again, 4-5 votes isn't much in a large game. I am slightly curious as to how that changes if he gets a larger wagon on him.

Definitely starting to be more curious about Stevie. Not for the disagreement with the Kast wagon, but for hte vote on Amrun, as well as pressuring things that really don't need to be pressured right now.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:43 am

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

hey yall. i was v/la at the start of this game and just got back in last night. ive skimmed the game and my first impressions are CJ and GI mega town. im gonna reread in some more depth now and form some more solid opinions on the other players
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