TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Vifam]

Crap, alt slipped.

[Vifam]

But yeah, I see what you mean, I doubt most of those people are scum, I might have been a little over the top.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

@ Pappums Leather Jacket: please confirm that:

• You are a hydra/alt including/of pappums rat
  
• This post was written by pappums rat (specifically pertaining to the MoI attack)

Yes on both counts. The other head (currently posting) is The Fonz, fwiw. We're trying to play as an unified voice as much as possible- the intention is to have PapRat be the posting head most of the time.

Our problem with labelling the vote RVS (and fwiw, I don't think I've seen a townie go to the point of labelling their RVS vote RVS) is unnecessary. It actually undermines the pressure value of the vote, and does leave open the possibility for later of 'My vote was just RVS, I didn't expect all these other players to make the wagon get out of hand like they have done.' Help build a wagon before distancing from it later. That said, we wish to note that

We also have something of a problem with MoI's pushing of Rodion. Specifically, MOI should be familiar with the newbie escalator. That is, a newbie comes in, says something that's poorly phrased or normal on another site but considered scummy here, they're attacked for it, and they start flailing, causing people to pile on with 'Well, it wasn't that big a deal, but her reaction was scummy...' type logic. They make a defence that mentions their newness and unfamiliarity with how mafia is played here, they're accused of playing the newbie card, they say that scum are pushing their lynch, people cry omgus, they describe themselves as mislynches (possibly easy mislynches) they get accused of AtE, they don't scumhunt as much because they're defending themselves, they're accused of not wanting to find scum. I tend to think that it's more useful to turn down the pressure for a bit, and see if the newbie starts scumhunting.

All that said, we are aware of the trap of finding something small someone does early slightly scummy, then they argue with you and you get into a pattern of being each other's interlocutors. Whatever we might think of MoI's tactics, he is at least trying.

We will

unvote, vote Chevre.

Enters, and makes a completely random vote, totally ignoring the somewhat more relevant vezok stuff that was already happening, then unvotes without coming up with a new one, and makes a comment about the nameclaim stuff that was already resolved. We're not seeing any pressing scumhunting motivation from that slot.

Unvote, vote: Chevre

.

Incidentally, we think Vezok's likely town. Scum tend to try to avoid becoming one of the first few wagons. Any plan you can propose, you can pretty much guarantee

someone's

going to find it antitown and call you scum for suggesting it. And if it isn't antitown, then, well, it's helping town and why would scum want to do that?

[Nero Cain]

We have jylly who got a lot of votes in a short period. Not scum.

4 votes is alot?

Now THIS seems like some honest sheeping, don't you think?

[Vifam]

Sorry Nero but your /confirm - JUMP ON WAGGON doesn't sit well.

[David Xanatos]

Magna > What question? I don't see a question I didn't respond to.. but if you repeat it, I'll address it.

[Vifam]

Okay, after going over this thread a little more, I think the most likely to be scum are:


MoI
Jyl
Marco
Nero

Take that as you will. But I think we have scum somewhere in those four.

[jasonT1981]

Day 1 Vote count 2

Jilynne 4 - Pinky, Vifam, Nero, Leonshade
Vifam 3 - Marco, MOI, 3isFrench
Andrew 2 - Silver, THAdmiral
Vezo 2 - CHKBallin, ZeL1nk
ThAdmiral 1 - Chevre
3isFrench, 1 - DXantos
Silver 1 - Andrew
Pine 1 - Oversoul
Chevre 1 - Pappum
Silverdrummer 1 - Slate


With 27 alive it takes 14 to lynch with a deadline of 12thAugust 12pm EST

[MagnaofIllusion]

Crap, alt slipped.

This is totally unrelated to the game so I’m segregating it at the top –

Are you really telling me you have been here 1.5 months and felt the need to already have an Alt?

--

Magna > What question? I don't see a question I didn't respond to.. but if you repeat it, I'll address it.

My ISO post 6 (real post 79).

KillerJ also summarized it in his ISO post 5 (real post 131).

--

Our problem with labelling the vote RVS (and fwiw, I don't think I've seen a townie go to the point of labelling their RVS vote RVS) is unnecessary. It actually undermines the pressure value of the vote, and does leave open the possibility for later of 'My vote was just RVS, I didn't expect all these other players to make the wagon get out of hand like they have done.' Help build a wagon before distancing from it later. That said, we wish to note that

The point of the Vezok wagon wasn’t to pressure Vezok. You understand that, right?

It was to gauge the reaction of other players based on how they react to said wagon.

All that said, we are aware of the trap of finding something small someone does early slightly scummy, then they argue with you and you get into a pattern of being each other's interlocutors. Whatever we might think of MoI's tactics, he is at least trying.

Yeah, we are certainly going to have to disagree about the “Newbie Elevator” theory. If you are playing outside the “Road to Rome”, especially in themed games, you are assumed (by me at least) to have enough of a passing understanding of how things are done here.

Incidentally, we think Vezok's likely town. Scum tend to try to avoid becoming one of the first few wagons. Any plan you can propose, you can pretty much guarantee someone's going to find it antitown and call you scum for suggesting it. And if it isn't antitown, then, well, it's helping town and why would scum want to do that?

Please clarify what you are saying here because, to quote the Simpsons, “I know all those words, but that makes no sense to me”.

On another note – I’m glad to know that Fonz is the other half of the Hydra. If you live longer than me it’s pretty much an assurance you are scum

--

That's because both of them did something legitimately scummy. And Jyl's defense of Vezok when the BW on Vezok obviously wasn't going strong at the time is the scummiest thing yet.

Yet those things were only scummy ‘to you’ after someone else posted similar thoughts.

EBWOP: Besides, they're others on this wagon, if you're REALLY looking for the one that seems most opportunistic, you should be aiming for:

And the scumdar goes wild!!! DING DING DING DING DING

Blatant “I’m doing something scummy but look over here this guys is more scummy vote him instead” tell detected.

Seriously – Nero is scum for his single case of bandwagon hopping, but you aren’t scum when you’ve done it multiple times?

[Vifam]

And the scumdar goes wild!!! DING DING DING DING DING

Blatant “I’m doing something scummy but look over here this guys is more scummy vote him instead” tell detected.

Seriously – Nero is scum for his single case of bandwagon hopping, but you aren’t scum when you’ve done it multiple times?

That's not what I'm trying to get at, I'm saying, how is Nero any more scummy then I am if he has done the same thing? Does the fact that he opened up with BLATENT sheeping mean anything to you? You also disagree that Jyl is fencesitting, so why aren't you directing any of your scumhunting at the person who STARTED the BW?

[Vifam]

This is totally unrelated to the game so I’m segregating it at the top –

Are you really telling me you have been here 1.5 months and felt the need to already have an Alt?

Yes.

[killerjester]

Ok, so why did you say you didn’t see any reasons to not wagon Vezok if you have no previous knowledge of his play?

Because the whole, "Let's lynch Vezok before he can even post," seemed joking and lighthearted. I was going more for sarcasm with my post and hitched onto the bandwagon with my RVS. Technically I could also say I was fishing for people's reactions to my post, but honestly the thought hadn't crossed my mind at the time. Then I moved on when I noticed something a little more serious.

EBWOP: Besides, they're others on this wagon, if you're REALLY looking for the one that seems most opportunistic, you should be aiming for:

And the scumdar goes wild!!! DING DING DING DING DING

Blatant “I’m doing something scummy but look over here this guys is more scummy vote him instead” tell detected.

Seriously – Nero is scum for his single case of bandwagon hopping, but you aren’t scum when you’ve done it multiple times?

I felt the same way about Vifam contradicting himself. "I may be sheeping but this guy is also sheeping and everyone should look at him now, not me." That's not a defense, that's deflecting suspicion. And I do find it quite scummy.

@Vifam, could you elaborate your thoughts a little more on MoI? I'm curious because I'm not getting the same read as you are.

[Vifam]

Ok, so why did you say you didn’t see any reasons to not wagon Vezok if you have no previous knowledge of his play?

Because the whole, "Let's lynch Vezok before he can even post," seemed joking and lighthearted. I was going more for sarcasm with my post and hitched onto the bandwagon with my RVS. Technically I could also say I was fishing for people's reactions to my post, but honestly the thought hadn't crossed my mind at the time. Then I moved on when I noticed something a little more serious.

EBWOP: Besides, they're others on this wagon, if you're REALLY looking for the one that seems most opportunistic, you should be aiming for:

And the scumdar goes wild!!! DING DING DING DING DING

Blatant “I’m doing something scummy but look over here this guys is more scummy vote him instead” tell detected.

Seriously – Nero is scum for his single case of bandwagon hopping, but you aren’t scum when you’ve done it multiple times?

I felt the same way about Vifam contradicting himself. "I may be sheeping but this guy is also sheeping and everyone should look at him now, not me." That's not a defense, that's deflecting suspicion. And I do find it quite scummy.

@Vifam, could you elaborate your thoughts a little more on MoI? I'm curious because I'm not getting the same read as you are.

I feel as if Nero's vote is a lot more scummier than mine, TBQH , first off, it doesn't really seem like he's actually *read* the thread, seems more to me like he saw a BW went "OH THIS IS GOOD" and hopped on. And he didn't explain *What* about Marco's reaction was so terrible, the whole thing is scummy, and I don't see why he'd go Vifam > Nero when Nero is acting like he is.

[Vifam]

Basically MoI I want to know why you think I am better lynch compared to Nero or anyone else on the Jyl wagon, ASIDE from the fact I've "sheeped" twice.

[David Xanatos]

MoI > Generally a question has a question mark.

I didn't see the need to put pressure on him. I didn't, and still don't, think Vezok's done anything warranting that pressure, and frankly I saw the French and my mind clouded.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

The point of the Vezok wagon wasn’t to pressure Vezok. You understand that, right?

Strikes me that in that case, labelling it as RVS still is counterproductive to the stated aim. More to the point, I've seen Vezok quicklynched within a couple of pages and 48 RL hours before simply for being him.

Yeah, we are certainly going to have to disagree about the “Newbie Elevator” theory. If you are playing outside the “Road to Rome”, especially in themed games, you are assumed (by me at least) to have enough of a passing understanding of how things are done here.

He's never played on this site before. Incidentally, the 'Newbie elevator' basically describes a significant proportion of day one mislynches on this site, so it's something to be aware of. If a newbie does something scummy early, then starts flipping his shit, raising the temperature is only going to cause him to flip his shit more.

Please clarify what you are saying here because, to quote the Simpsons, “I know all those words, but that makes no sense to me”.

1) Scum don't want to help town, or get wagoned.
2) If you propose a plan, if it is good you will help town, if it is bad you will get wagoned (and sometimes if it's good you'll get wagoned anyway by people who see things differently).
3) Therefore, scum will steer clear of suggesting any kind of claim or action plan early on.

Same works for policy lynching. You know there's going to be a significant minority of the town calling for the head of anyone who dares suggest anything that looks like a policy lynch, therefore people proposing D1 policy lynches are usually town.

[vezokpiraka]

If you think I am scum do you think I'll succumb to pressure?

Anyone who thought that why did you thought that?

unvote
vote Vifam

Classic: (Why are you voting me? This guy does the same thing but it's not me ) scum

@Pappms: I've been quicklynched in less than 24 hours before I posted.

[killerjester]

Basically MoI I want to know why you think I am better lynch compared to Nero or anyone else on the Jyl wagon, ASIDE from the fact I've "sheeped" twice.

You havn't offered a defense for yourself, that's what gets to me the most. MoI may have his own feelings though, and I'd like to hear them.

For now VOTE: Vifam

[Vifam]

Basically MoI I want to know why you think I am better lynch compared to Nero or anyone else on the Jyl wagon, ASIDE from the fact I've "sheeped" twice.

You havn't offered a defense for yourself, that's what gets to me the most. MoI may have his own feelings though, and I'd like to hear them.

For now VOTE: Vifam

Sadly, the only possible defense is "I agreed with their reads".

[PeregrineV]

You know that guy you see going into the convenience store when you stop off at that little town on the way to grandma's house? A sort of shifty looking fella who buys a pack of smokes, a couple of lotto scratchers and a tall boy at ten in the morning? The kind of guy you wait for to come out before you and your family go in? Well, that guy is me. My name is Earl. And if you took the time to really get to know me, find out what kind of person I truly am instead of just stereotyping me because of the way I look, well, you'd be wasting your time, because I'm exactly who you think I am. Hell, I'll pretty much steal anything that isn't nailed down.

You can't be him because My Name Is....

Wait a minute. I see what you did there.

Vote: Zinger

!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't see the need to put pressure on him. I didn't, and still don't, think Vezok's done anything warranting that pressure, and frankly I saw the French and my mind clouded.

So you didn’t like a RVS pressure wagon on Vezok because he didn’t do anything suspect, but you were happy to vote someone for being French?

Into my “Acceptable Day 1 Lynch” pool you go.

--

Strikes me that in that case, labelling it as RVS still is counterproductive to the stated aim. More to the point, I've seen Vezok quicklynched within a couple of pages and 48 RL hours before simply for being him.

Please show me an example other than Vi’s “Mafia of the Complicated Seraph Mechanics” or whatever it was called because that quichlynch was completely policy in response to “Objection” Mafia and IMO was frankly deserved.

Because I haven’t seen any others.

1) Scum don't want to help town, or get wagoned.
2) If you propose a plan, if it is good you will help town, if it is bad you will get wagoned (and sometimes if it's good you'll get wagoned anyway by people who see things differently).
3) Therefore, scum will steer clear of suggesting any kind of claim or action plan early on.

Same works for policy lynching. You know there's going to be a significant minority of the town calling for the head of anyone who dares suggest anything that looks like a policy lynch, therefore people proposing D1 policy lynches are usually town.

How this elaborate theory labels Vezok as Town I’m not getting.

--

That's not what I'm trying to get at, I'm saying, how is Nero any more scummy then I am if he has done the same thing? Does the fact that he opened up with BLATENT sheeping mean anything to you? You also disagree that Jyl is fencesitting, so why aren't you directing any of your scumhunting at the person who STARTED the BW?

1. Are you trying to suggest that Nero is more scummy than you for blatantly sheeping because his first post came later in the game? Despite the fact that you have played ‘Follow the Leader’ multiple times?

No, I don’t find Nero more scummy. His reasoning for voting Jily is buddying, which is different than fence-sitting. Yes, they refer to the same post but his suggested motivations make some level of sense to me.

2. So ‘BLATENT sheeping’ is scummy? So you doing it twice is fairly strong evidence you are scum then, correct?

3. Here’s my original quote so we can discuss it in full –

I find the push on Jily for ‘fence-sitting’ to be very weak. The lack of commentary is more fair but I don’t see it as strongly scummy at this very early stage of the game.

Again … I find the fence-sitting a weak accusation because fence-sitting on whether someone is a VI or not has nothing to do with alignment.

I do understand the ‘lack of commentary / analysis’ angle but don’t find it very strong this early in the game.

Why should I be attacking the originator of the Jily wagon again? I don’t have a Town read on her. Just because I don’t agree with a main point against her doesn’t mean I think she’s Town.

Sadly, the only possible defense is "I agreed with their reads".

So it is ok (aka Not a scum-tell) to wagon if you agree with someone else’s reads.

Why didn’t you ask Nero whether he agrees with the other reads on Jily?

I’m seeing some strong Cognitive Dissonance in your play that I’m having a hard time not thinking isn’t driven by a scum perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You can't be him because My Name Is....

Wait a minute. I see what you did there.

Vote: Zinger

!

Ok, so no comment on ANYTHING else going on in the game?

[David Xanatos]

My vote was quite obviously a joke. The seemingly random pressure wagon on Vezok had potential to snowball, and frankly I'd rather not contribute to a lynch without information.

And on that note.

unvote: 3isFrench

[MagnaofIllusion]

My vote was quite obviously a joke. The seemingly random pressure wagon on Vezok had potential to snowball, and frankly I'd rather not contribute to a lynch without information.

And on that note.

unvote: 3isFrench

Ok ... so your obvious joke vote is retracted.

Why aren't you actually voting someone who is scummy? You can't tell me that this far in there isn't something that has happened that isn't vote worthy.

Hell, I'd even take some actually commentary on the leading wagons - what do you think of Jily and Vifam.

[David Xanatos]

Vifam is dodgy is all hell in my book, but I'm waiting on her mounting even a vague defense before I drop a vote on her. Jily.. I honestly don't know. My gut says confused town, but my head says suspicious. My main thought is Vifam though..