C9++ Discussion

[iamausername]

Magua brings up an interesting point that I hadn't considered wrt self-aware millers. But I don't like unaware millers, I feel like it weakens the cop to the point that it almost becomes a detriment to the town.

You know what, the whole miller issue is an incredibly inelegant solution to the whole issue of creating a weaker version of the cop role whichever way you slice it. Why not make a single C give a one-shot cop instead?

[Magua]

Why not make a single C give a one-shot cop instead?

I was thinking this (well, I was thinking "Even-Night Cop" instead, but, close enough), but it produces another problem: Someone who receives a 1-shot Cop PM knows there's no other cops in the setup.

Like, if you're a 1-shot Vigilante, you know that there's at least one more Vig in the setup. If you're a Backup Doctor, you know there's at least one Doctor. Etc. But there could be more. If you make "C" a 1-shot Cop, you're telling them that any other Cop claim is fake.

Other possible solution: Replace "Insane Cop" with something else, like "1-shot Sensor." Make the C table as so:

C = 1-shot Sensor
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop + 1-shot Sensor
CCCC = 2 Sane Cops
CCCCC = 2 Sane Cops + 1-shot Sensor
CCCCCC = 3 Sane Cops

Godfather does not show up as mafia on Sensor's count.

Alternatively:

C = Insane Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop + Insane Cop
CCCC = 2 Sane Cops
CCCCC = 2 Sane Cops + Insane Cop
CCCCCC = 3 Sane Cops

[yabbaguy]

Somehow - the Millerhood addition means that the Cop is going to get an inflated quantity of guilties. Actually, if there were precisely 3 Millers put into the game, then there would be either 4 or 5 guilties - and most of them WOULDN'T be Mafia. SK is possibly going to get a guilty as well, but that actually finagles with the Cop investigations quite a bit.

If I'm honest, C = Cop + 1 Miller, adding the Miller normally instead of a VT, seems just fine if we want the more "elegant" route. In a game with 3 Millers - there are more Town that are going to show guilty than scum, plus there's a GF, plus the sanity doubts of the Cop. What should the reality be?

1 Miller is the only thing guaranteed to fit in the setup, I should add. Also, naive millers do make more sense it seems.

[Magua]

If you're just going to have one unaware miller, I would definitely keep the idea that any role (except for mafia or the Cop; *maybe* exclude the SK if present) could be the miller.

[yabbaguy]

In that case, forget it. Let's just stick with the 1-3 rule that iam and myself, then everyone else used.

SK either has Investigation Immunity or doesn't, so they're ineligible for Millerhood.

[Magua]

SK either has Investigation Immunity or doesn't, so they're ineligible for Millerhood.

Point. So miller goes to non-Mafia, non-Cop, non-SK.

[Andrius]

But I don't like unaware millers, I feel like it weakens the cop to the point that it almost becomes a detriment to the town.

[yabbaguy]

Naive Millers in a semi-Open are permissible. But if we feel it's debilitating, let's just do 1 Miller. And whether we make it a separate role or tether it to any of the eligible roles that we've been going by forever, everyone probably will find it more fun with the latter, but it's less swingy in the former. That said, swingy is sorta what makes this so cool, and it's already Town-tilted, so the prospect of a PR being shocked with a Sane guilty might be best.

Aware Miller gets a Sane Cop confirmed. We can't have that, I reckon.

[Andrius]

Ok, the cop-confirmage via Miller makes sense. I definitely think there should be only one Miller OR a set amount of them. :/
Hmmm, though I see the original thinking- with random millers there's scum fakeclaim potential and 1 Miller could easily be confirmed without a CC yes?
Regardless, I think that's the best path.

[Magua]

If it's naive, 1 miller (or a set amount, whatever) is fine.

If the miller's are aware, it must be a random number (1-3). If it is not it is too prone to mod-confirmation (and can't even be safely fakeclaimed by the mafia until at least one town miller has already claimed).

Really, though, the more I think about it the more I think miller is a hack. Replace 'C' with Insane Cop, move on with your life.

[yabbaguy]

Really, though, the more I think about it the more I think miller is a hack. Replace 'C' with Insane Cop, move on with your life.

I don't agree. Having an Insane Cop more than Sane sounds unfun - imagine if you drew Cop. You statistically have to assume you're Insane. That's odd and may actually still end up benefiting the Town more if anyone comes to that realization quickly.

I like the Miller addition. I'm personally really torn between whether we should go for the fun of a Miller Backup Roleblocker or the fact that it's more intuitive to simply add a Miller like any other role generated - put in Sane Cop and Miller and any other roles generated, then add vanilla, and stir. Serves 12.

[Gammagooey]

What if you just made 1 C a cop with undetermined sanity? (50% chance it starts as sane 50% starts as insane)

[farside22]

I'm going to read this and comment sometime this week. I got busy but the next few days look to be clear so I will have something then.

[AGar]

Similarly, the mafia in Ythan's C9++ got really hurt by the lack of a dead Ythill.

FTFY

Lolololol.

What if you just made 1 C a cop with undetermined sanity? (50% chance it starts as sane 50% starts as insane)

This actually sounds like a solid change.

[farside22]

I'm good with day start. As town I love the info but as a player that goes into the game and died N0 once I hate N0

Miller should be told they are miller. I typically believe when there is an open set up and miller is a role in the game then they get a VT role PM. However when miller is a mere possibility I believe it hoses the town more in a game like this.

[farside22]

Sorry for the double post.

I think everyone has been clear why no PR claim for mafia in necessary for this game, as well as results for the insane cop.

[yabbaguy]

So you're happy to implement these changes in?

Miller should be told they are miller. I typically believe when there is an open set up and miller is a role in the game then they get a VT role PM. However when miller is a mere possibility I believe it hoses the town more in a game like this.

As for this, it sounds like an interesting idea - but again, that can get a Cop confirmed. Although, maybe. If scum fakeclaims Miller - then they can possibly extract a Cop and gain an advantage, but that is HARD if an actual Miller exists.

What about Miller shows on the flip but doesn't show in the Role PM?

With the 50% cop rule:

C = Sane or Insane Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane and Insane Cop

That one C makes it even

more

artificial. If anything, we should just have one separate Miller. Make it a role, make it an informed role, whatever.

So my Miller proposal

1 Miller on 1 C.
Miller is a separate role, added just like any other role in this setup. C = 1 Sane Cop + 1 Miller
Miller gets Vanilla PM but shows Miller if/when flipped.

Thus the setup could be deduced - but that actually opens a small door for Mafia to creep in with a fakeclaim, which is really fun.

[Magua]

Alternative proposal. Ditch sanity, have a 1-shot cop, like 1-shot vig.

C = 1-shot Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop + 1-shot Cop
CCCC = Two Sane Cops
CCCCC = Two Sane Cops + 1-shot Cop

[yabbaguy]

Cops are therefore guaranteed Sane, then? Even with a GF and potential Investigate Immune SK, that's a big Town-skew. Cop guilties are 100% and cause scum to spontaneously combust.

Kaboom.

[farside22]

What are the odds of Miller being in the game?

[Magua]

Cops are therefore guaranteed Sane, then? Even with a GF and potential Investigate Immune SK, that's a big Town-skew. Cop guilties are 100% and cause scum to spontaneously combust.

Kaboom.

I would argue quite heavily that a 1-shot cop is less powerful than a sane cop and any number of self-aware millers, and is probably less powerful (though it'd be a closer call) than a sane cop and some number of naive millers.

Or to put it another way: sane/insane only requires one lynch to confirm sanity, or 0 lynches if you simply target yourself N0.

[yabbaguy]

(7)*(.15)*(.85)^6

39.6% chance of one C.

Or to put it another way: sane/insane only requires one lynch to confirm sanity, or 0 lynches if you simply target yourself N0.

Do try to keep up - we don't have an N0 as of now, and a supremo primo numero uno rule when discussing PRs is that no action can target itself unless explicitly stated otherwise.

sane/insane only requires one lynch to confirm sanity

One lynch that may never come at all, but becomes more likely as the game goes on. That's part of the fun.

[Magua]

Do try to keep up - we don't have an N0 as of now, and a supremo primo numero uno rule when discussing PRs is that no action can target itself unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Don't insult my intelligence with snarky comments like "do try to keep up." It's fucking rude.

Secondly, you can assume there's a "No self-targetting unless it says otherwise" rule, but assuming is bad, and it's not in the rules (nor is standard, as far as I'm aware; I've certainly not seen it applied outside of protective roles).

I see it now in the C9++ rules.

One lynch that may never come at all, but becomes more likely as the game goes on. That's part of the fun.

Comparing a 1-shot Cop and a Cop who does not know if he is Sane or Insane, if the Cop gets:
1 investigation: 1-shot Cop is more powerful
2 investigations: I'd say balanced (Sane/insane cop either has at least one target dead, so can figure out sanity, *or* knows that two players are of the same alignment)
3+ investigations: Sane/Insane Cop

Both Millers/unknown sanity Cops are crutches because a regular Cop is too powerful. Miller is *very* problematic as self-aware, for reasons already discussed. Miller as naive is probably better from a statistics standpoint, but still has the problem that if a Cop claims guilty on you and you claim VT and it's not lylo, you're getting lynched (and then the Cop is getting mod-confirmed).

Sane/insane is preferable, but again is purely a crutch because a single sane Cop is too powerful. An insane Cop with three investigations may as well have been a sane cop when all is said and done. It will prevent some early claiming (certainly prevents a D2 "I have a guilty" claim), but really has no effect D3 or later.

[yabbaguy]

Simple carelessness, no insult intended.

[tclawren]

So I love all these suggestions.

Is there a possibility of the agreed upon points getting added to the wiki and actually being used in a game?