Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[cavjj]

Alright all, just got back and promised a post, will be with you shortly

[whilst]

whilst

whilst has been playing the people pleaser. Despite the criticism BBmolla and I exchanged about our questions, whilst continually agreed with both of us about everything until post #50, in which he disagreed with both of us. I was going to keep track of whilst's propensity to act agreeable or neutral. As of yet, I've come to no conclusion about whether this is the act of a polite townie or cautious scum, which is why I didn't want to share so soon.

I'm sorry I've been so pleasing, I'll be more of a dick in the future. I didn't disagree with either of you in #50, if that's how you really read it. I was telling both of you to move on.

Wickedestjr

Wickedestjr

, your reaction has no substance:

I agree with Honest Abel's point against him in his post 56. It looks like he's been playing the people pleaser and it seems like he's trying to avoid attracting any attention or suspicion.

I'm assuming you wouldn't have thought about that 'argument' unless

Honest Abel

had pointed it out. If I'm trying to avoid attracting any attention, it's because I'm being a good townie. But, you seem to disagree.

Furthermore, he hasn't taken any real stances yet in the game, but also hasn't been doing anything to obtain reads, either.

Do you expect me to participate in the

RVS

? Or do you want my thoughts on who is a townie and who isn't? I don't have any reads, because I have nothing to go by. There isn't anything in anyone's argument that makes me want to cast my lynch vote.

[BBmolla]

I, like scumhunter, think RVS is a lousy tradition. Take note of the "Random Voting State."

If you think RVS is a lousy tradition, then why participate in it? Do you think there is a better way to generate a serious discussion? Also, you chose to participate, so I'll ask you again. Why did you choose to make your vote completely random rather than think of a jokey or random reason? Wouldn't scum be more likely to cast a vote that they don't have to take any responsibility for?

I won't be from now on. I personally am not a fan of day 1 as it's almost always a ML. D1 is just kind of sitting around waiting for someone to show a slip of some sort. I prefer questions D1, as I posted. I believe that everyone should have a post or two before RVS begins just so people have something to off of other than dumb reasons like a silly name or something. I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

I haven't voted Abel because I want to take everyone into consideration before I vote to lynch somebody. Also, I've learned that first looks can be decieving, so I want it to go on a bit more and see his and everyone elses interactions with each other before I make a vote.

Okay, but note that you can change your vote whenever you want and sometimes the best way to determine someone's allignment is by voting them.

I know. Just old roots from EpicMafia, where a random vote must be given a reason or you will be lynched.

Also, I just want to say I'm not a fan of your question because it seems a bit rolefishy to me. I don't see what makes this game any different than other games, but I always prefer to be aligned with the town.

I don't think it is rolefishing. Rolefishing is where you ask a player questions that could reveal what their allignment is. I'm not asking you anything about your role in this game, but I'm asking if you would have preferred to be town or scum.

Alright, fair enough.

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Gonna take a look back in a bit at all the players posts and try to get some early reads.

[Honest Abel]

I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

It's not like you knew it would garner attention before you did it. I don't think it makes any sense at all to say that no scum would do what you did, not to mention that's quite a suspicious assertion to make.

Okay, but note that you can change your vote whenever you want and sometimes the best way to determine someone's allignment is by voting them.

I know. Just old roots from EpicMafia, where a random vote must be given a reason or you will be lynched.

He wasn't talking about random voting anymore, he was talking about why you were so shy about voting for me despite your suspicions.

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Fluff.

[singersigner]

Vote Count 1.4

cavjj (0):
DarkClaymore (0):
Honest Abel (2): I Am Innocent, Dark Claymore
whilst (0): Wickedestjr
dicknose (0):
BBmolla (2): Scumhunter, Honest Abel
I Am Innocent (0):
Scumhunter (0):
Wickedestjr (0):

Not Voting (4): whilst, dicknose, cavjj, BBmolla

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

Deadline is August 17th, 2011 3pm PST.

[BBmolla]

I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

It's not like you knew it would garner attention before you did it. I don't think it makes any sense at all to say that no scum would do what you did, not to mention that's quite a suspicious assertion to make.

I didn't say no scum would. I'm saying it's not a scumtell cause a person on either side would do it.

Okay, but note that you can change your vote whenever you want and sometimes the best way to determine someone's allignment is by voting them.

I know. Just old roots from EpicMafia, where a random vote must be given a reason or you will be lynched.

He wasn't talking about random voting anymore, he was talking about why you were so shy about voting for me despite your suspicions.

Wasn't thinking. I hesitated because I thought you were scum, but wasn't absolutely sure. When others shared my view, it coaxed me a bit to vote. Not mindless sheeping, just a group reassurance.

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Fluff.

Fine. Then we'll drop it.

[Honest Abel]

I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

It's not like you knew it would garner attention before you did it. I don't think it makes any sense at all to say that no scum would do what you did, not to mention that's quite a suspicious assertion to make.

I didn't say no scum would. I'm saying it's not a scumtell cause a person on either side would do it.

That may be what you think you said, but it's certainly not what you said. You've backtracked and said something absolutely different. Not digging it. Scummy.

He wasn't talking about random voting anymore, he was talking about why you were so shy about voting for me despite your suspicions.

Wasn't thinking. I hesitated because I thought you were scum, but wasn't absolutely sure. When others shared my view, it coaxed me a bit to vote. Not mindless sheeping, just a group reassurance.

This isn't the first time you've been swayed by the crowd. It's not even the first time you've

admitted

being swayed by the crowd before anyone even accuses you of anything. Are you going to continue the rest of the game going "I know this looks scummy, but I'm doing it anyway"?

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Fluff.

Fine. Then we'll drop it.

So after all of the flak you gave for how my question was irrelevant, you suddenly find it interesting enough to ruminate on it and then simply drop it entirely after I say one word? Good for dropping it, but the way you're giving in to every little assertion now and every sway of the group seems to be right in the vein of what whilst has been accused of, only worse. It's quite an inexplicable change of character, isn't it?

[BBmolla]

I don't think scum would cast a random vote as I did, because apparently it gathers attention which is the opposite of what they want.

It's not like you knew it would garner attention before you did it. I don't think it makes any sense at all to say that no scum would do what you did, not to mention that's quite a suspicious assertion to make.

I didn't say no scum would. I'm saying it's not a scumtell cause a person on either side would do it.

That may be what you think you said, but it's certainly not what you said. You've backtracked and said something absolutely different. Not digging it. Scummy.

Both my statements were true. I don't think a scum would cast a random vote because it gathers attention. However, scum and town both could do so. I just worded it badly.

He wasn't talking about random voting anymore, he was talking about why you were so shy about voting for me despite your suspicions.

Wasn't thinking. I hesitated because I thought you were scum, but wasn't absolutely sure. When others shared my view, it coaxed me a bit to vote. Not mindless sheeping, just a group reassurance.

This isn't the first time you've been swayed by the crowd. It's not even the first time you've

admitted

being swayed by the crowd before anyone even accuses you of anything. Are you going to continue the rest of the game going "I know this looks scummy, but I'm doing it anyway"?

If I agree with the rest of the crowd than yes. I'm not going to purposely change my views because others share them.

Also, in regards to the D0 kill WIFOM, I didn't even think about it that way. It never occured to me, that's the honest truth. Also, in the D0 kill scenario, would PRs get a chance to perform their night actions? Cause Doc/Jail would probably be on the most experienced players so that would change the mentality behind it a bit.

Fluff.

Fine. Then we'll drop it.

So after all of the flak you gave for how my question was irrelevant, you suddenly find it interesting enough to ruminate on it and then simply drop it entirely after I say one word? Good for dropping it, but the way you're giving in to every little assertion now and every sway of the group seems to be right in the vein of what whilst has been accused of, only worse. It's quite an inexplicable change of character, isn't it?

[/quote]
I interpretted "Fluff" as "Who cares." So I dropped it. I'm not going to argue over a question that doesn't matter, and I respect that you don't really want to discuss it.

Just saying, this is going to go on forever.

[I Am Innocent]

In every game I've played (whatever alignment I may be), I've always decided the best action on Day 1 is to

not

vote "No Lynch" -- ending a day prematurely is horrible: If you're mafia, you miss out on chances to make other people look like scum. If you're a townie, you miss out on chances to draw out the scum. Regardless, I also will not lynch another player, unless he or she is obviously mafia. I think you'd agree that it's difficult to have an accurate mafia lynch.

No lynching benefits scum, because then all the killing is done via Night by the mafia. And the only way we will ever be 100% sure someone is mafia is via a cop (and a cop only shows up in 1/2 the scenarios).

Here is a post from a town IC in a previous game. Please note that this was the old F11(?) setup, so no jailkeepers in this game:

2.) What is preferable on Day One of a Newbie Game? A lynch on a townsperson, or a No Lynch?

The reason I asked this question was because I find the implications of this so important that I think all players should be aware of the answer. Although it may seem counter-intuitive, the correct answer to this question is: a lynch on a townsperson is better. This has everything to do with the number of players in the game.

With nine players in the game, if we take the default assumption that there is a nightkill every night, the Town can get a maximum of four lynches over the course of the game:

9 players: Lynch #1, nightkill
7 players: Lynch #2, nightkill
5 players: Lynch #3, nightkill
3 players: Lynch #4

Suppose instead that we No Lynched on Day One (or any other Day), but there was still a nightkill every night. Suddenly, the Town gets only three maximum lynches over the course of the game:

9 players: No Lynch, nightkill
8 players: Lynch #1, nightkill
6 players: Lynch #2, nightkill
4 players: Lynch #3

Now, it is possible in this scenario for us to get our fourth lynch back if either (i) we have a Doctor who successfully protects against a kill while not being role-blocked, or (ii) if the Mafia fail to send in their kill in time or purposefully No Kill. In my opinion, however, Towns should not gamble in the hopes of being so fortunate.

In a Newbie Game, the town’s only mechanism for winning is to lynch. The more lynches we get, the higher our chances of winning. I make this point for the following reason: if this game gets to a point where we are getting close to deadline, please know that we are better off with a lynch than without a lynch. Even if you think a player is probably Town, it may be tactical to vote for them simply to assure there is a lynch: after all, you may be wrong.

If anybody does not understand this, please stop and closely read this section of my post a second time. If you still do not understand, please let us know, and I will either try to explain it again or refer you to an explanation written by another player. I want everybody understand this at the front-end of the game rather than having to frantically discuss this at deadline.

[Honest Abel]

That's a good explanation to give to stubborn no-lynch advocates in addition to all the other benefits of lynching.

P.S. My vote stands. I'm convinced enough. Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

[I Am Innocent]

I am. I'm calling a BBmolla/cavjj scum team here.

Some slight concern on whilst for not voting/not taking a stance, and while I'm noting it here, I still read town in most of his other posts.

unvote: Honest Abel
vote: BBmolla

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP - dicknose, any reason you have not voted yet either?

[whilst]

Thanks

I Am Innocent

. I'll keep that in mind if I'm hesitant to cast my lynch vote in the future.

Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

Your reasoning is fine, but I also feel that BBmolla's responses are adequate. As easy as it is to retract a "lynch", I am just not comfortable with leaving my lynch vote on a player who I am not 85% convinced to be mafia aligned.

Note: 85% is just a random 'majority' number, for a lack of a better word.

Some slight concern on whilst for not voting/not taking a stance, and while I'm noting it here, I still read town in most of his other posts.[/b]

This may be because I'm new, but it may also be because I share a much different play style from other people: I don't understand the alarm caused by a player (in this case, me) not

"taking a stance"

. If I have any pressing concerns, I will share them. For the record, I have no stance. That doesn't mean I don't have any "thoughts"; I'm just keeping them to myself--

why?

Well:

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

If I point out the flaw, the player will fix his/her behavior, something I don't want.

[Bricktoes]

i suppose i was waiting for a stronger read, but i might as well

VOTE: CAVJJ

until i get on the laptop in a couple hours.

[Honest Abel]

Your reasoning is fine, but I also feel that BBmolla's responses are adequate.

I think you need to develop a more critical eye. Having been a poet and been in workshops, I understand exactly where you're coming from; it's easy to come up with reasons why anything is sufficient. But you need a more discerning opinion sometimes. It's especially useful in a game like this where nothing is certain and those who are guilty are going to give sufficient answers. You need to be able to, or at least attempt to, tell the difference between significance and that which is merely sufficient. I'm not trying to be rough on you. I asked you to play games on this site because I know you're interested and can use some experience, as can I.

As easy as it is to retract a "lynch", I am just not comfortable with leaving my lynch vote on a player who I am not 85% convinced to be mafia aligned.

I think that's too high of a standard, especially for Day 1. You may never be that certain of a player's alignment so long as you play this game. And even when you think you are, there's bound to be a situation in which you're wrong anyway. I say lighten up a bit and take some risks. I'm fully behind the play-to-win philosophy, but you have to consider that it's only a game and you're allowed to be a bit ballsy since we're not actually killing people here.

[DarkClaymore]

I have seen not once how a scum who sees that people vote him/her starts writing very long replies with various reasons and deep explanations. I suppose this is their way to gain the favor of others and show that not only they contribute a lot, but also good thinkers. I'll never forget how I let one like this to slip away in one of the games I played elsewhere.

Doesn't your long-winded response to my question also fit that description? Why put so much effort into answering a question that you yourself described as "rather pointless"? You're showing us that you are a good thinker, but you did it by applying your analytic skills to a hypothetical situation rather than something that has a real bearing on the present game.

Of course, you didn't have any votes on you, so you'd say that there was no pressure to avert. But seeing as you're so aware of the premise, your early post could have been a preemptive defense.

I knew this will come

Well yes, I did write more than needed for this question but what I meant is more "huge walls of texts" which I didn't do. I just tried to show a different aspect because everyone here easily jumped on the "kill the most experienced player" option. I just felt that it's wrong.

Honestly, I just want D1 to end and hopefully N1 will give us more info to work with. So I'll just join the wagon. Also, when people tend to see two players arguing, they often say "Nah. It's probably two townies gunning at each other". But I have seen cases in which it was proven false. While not too much of a solid reason, at least it still is a reason.

VOTE: BBmolla

[BBmolla]

I can understand the want to end D1. I'm at L-1. Does anyone have any intent on hammering?

[singersigner]

Vote Count 1.4

cavjj (1): dicknose
DarkClaymore (0):
Honest Abel (0):
whilst (1): Wickedestjr
dicknose (0):
BBmolla (4): Scumhunter, Honest Abel, I Am Innocent, Dark Claymore
I Am Innocent (0):
Scumhunter (0):
Wickedestjr (0):

Not Voting (3): whilst, cavjj, BBmolla

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

Deadline is August 17th, 2011 3pm PST.

[cavjj]

I can understand the want to end D1. I'm at L-1. Does anyone have any intent on hammering?

I am considering it to be fair, in my eyes, you are only probably third on my list of suspects, but N1 will give us lots more to think about and as I have previously said, I would rather risk losing a VT than letting a potential scum escape, even if it is D1 and we haven't got lots to go on.

[cavjj]

Sod it, sometimes you've just got to go with your gut instinct over analysis.

VOTE: BBmolla

[singersigner]

Vote Count 1.4

cavjj (1): dicknose
DarkClaymore (0):
Honest Abel (0):
whilst (1): Wickedestjr
dicknose (0):

BBmolla (5): Scumhunter, Honest Abel, I Am Innocent, Dark Claymore, cavjj

I Am Innocent (0):
Scumhunter (0):
Wickedestjr (0):

Not Voting (2): whilst, BBmolla

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

That's a lynch!

[singersigner]

And with that, the town turned quickly with glaring eyes towards the unsuspecting, a member of their own.

"Is this really it?" BBmolla asks calmly, seeing the drool on their lips, and the greed in their eyes.

"Yes!," they cry. And with that, cavjj kicks the stool out from under him. You could hear the ghostly snap of his neck throughout the town as they then stand speechless, for when he breathed his last breath, they knew.

BBmolla,

Vanilla Townie

,

lynched Day One.

Deadline for any/all night actions are due August 1st, 2011, 12AM PST.

[singersigner]

As the town slept that night, mourning the loss of one of their own, none had an easy rest. With two traitors in their midst, their dreams quickly turned sour.

Unfortunately for one, it was time for his worst nightmare.

Scumhunter,

Vanilla Townie

,

killed Night One.

Deadline for Day Two is August 22nd, 2011, 12AM PST.

[Honest Abel]

So cavjj, why did you hammer? Remember when I said people should be sharing their thoughts on all other players before the day ends because it's very useful later? Did you not want anyone to do that? You ended the Day very abruptly, and did not give a fair warning of your intent to hammer. Explain your big rush to lynch BBmolla.

It's also fitting that Scumhunter was killed overnight considering his most substantial post was about how silly it is to bring people to L-1 so early in the Day, and he warned of people using any dumb excuse to hammer and end the day prematurely. This was about the L-1 on me, but it applies just as much to the BBmolla case:

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be at L-1 this early. There are other ways to pressure people. One of these days I'm going to be scum have a cop-read on someone who is at L-1 and hammer away to waste a ML and kill a pr d1. I mean do the people voting Abel "actually" want a lynch to go through right now? No. Of course you don't. So why are you voting him to L-1? It's obviously for "pressure" but it seems an unnecessary step and can only lead to a sad outcome if a true newbie/scum hammers.

For those of you saying, oh no one is newbie enough to hammer here (yes you are probably right, but is it really worth the risk, a newbie town hammering another town would cost us 2 ML!)

Pretty pathetic that this was discussed so bluntly and it still ended up happening. What do you have to say about this, cavjj? It also strikes me that Scumhunter's promise to you to become more involved in the game could have been a determining factor in his demise:

@cavjj, Yes, you could call my usual behavior during RVS/early day 1 lurking. I will become very engaged in the game as we progress here.

Well, cavjj, let's hear it.

[Honest Abel]

I'm also just going to point this out now since it's fairly obvious and it's bound to come out anyway. Let's compare both day 1 bandwagons:

Honest Abel (4):

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

BBmolla

,

cavjj

BBmolla (5):

Scumhunter

, Honest Abel,

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

cavjj