Why do hydras traditionally get out of thread discussion?

[Junpei]

I 100% agree, hydras are very unfair to other players in the game for a number of reasons that may have already been stated numerous times.

1) They get out of thread communication that allows them to confer and get HELP FROM ANOTHER PLAYER about what to do in the game. If hydras continue then we should all be allowed to consult another person on what we should do/reads in every game. That would even the playing field.

2) Lets be straight, there are no perfect hydras,if there are they are few and far between. How many times have you gone to ISO someone to only realize that they posted on their regular account (both sides) several times? It's frustrating and extra work and makes me want to lynch them faster.

3) In a world where the hydras act as one person, many scumtells are harder to use because it is actually two people with two completely different thoughts acting as 1. Things such as inconsistency can be chalked up to hydra dissonance which, while some call it a scumtell, could be argued as simply a mix up in the QT. Or, it is a legitimate tactic to have 1 head afk forever to cover something up that it did.

4) In a world where they act as two people there are twice as many things you must account for on that slot. This is much extra work for the scumhunter and causes different reads sometimes on each slot. Once again, an unfair advantage with the ability to dodge reads.

If I ever moderate a game, hydras and alts will not be allowed, and I wish that more games did that too as it is highly unfair, I can't understand a hydra. It's only benefit is to people who are too lazy to stay active on their own. If they have other engagements then they just cant' join the game, don't let them make a hydra.

[animorpherv1]

They get the same Role PM. I don't understand what's remotely wrong with it.

Would you be cool with me starting a hydra with Glork, Yosarian and Ythill? They don't have to post - it'd just be nice having the freedom to ask those players to weigh in when I need it.

Ask for confirmation from all heads before the hydra is allowed in.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Hydras are unfair, yes.

[Papa Zito]

I was supposed to make this thread a while ago.

My opinion is that multiple players occupying a single player slot is non-normal and thus should not be allowed in Normal games.

[Faraday]

They get the same Role PM. I don't understand what's remotely wrong with it.

Would you be cool with me starting a hydra with Glork, Yosarian and Ythill? They don't have to post - it'd just be nice having the freedom to ask those players to weigh in when I need it.

Well you'd have to cut one of them, I don't allow 4 person hydra's, other than that sure knock yourself out.

[Faraday]

Anyway I'm a hydra whore so w/e, no problem playing with them (don't find them harder to read) and no problem allowing them in my modded games.

[Slaxx]

Hydra's are a huge advantage.

But like Faraday, I am a hydra whore. I like being able to bounce ideas off someone else. Is it powerful? Yeah, it is. Especially when two strong players line up. I actually excluded Hydras from my latest game, but if mods are willing to let me hydra with Reg or Parama or whoever else than yeah, I'm gonna do it.

However I know Reg also uses Hydras to help newer players learn the ropes, which tbh is an excellent idea to me.

[Greymarble]

Hydras are mechanically the same as a regular player.
I think normal means mechanically normal and primarily based on scumhunting as opposed to role-strategy, and hydras don't hurt that.

As for fairness, gaps in player ability make a much larger difference than gaps in hydra/nonhydra.
So while I certainly agree two players hydraing may be somewhat better than either was individually, a player who is better than either of them will still usually be better than their hydra.

The team a hydra ends up on is as random as the team a good player ends up on, so I don't think there's a fairness issue in that sense.
Also I just plain like games where all the slots are playing well a lot more.

Finally they are a lot of fun and I feel like I learn more by sometimes being exposed to other-brain-musings.

[Hoopla]

As for fairness, gaps in player ability make a much larger difference than gaps in hydra/nonhydra.
So while I certainly agree two players hydraing may be somewhat better than either was individually, a player who is better than either of them will still usually be better than their hydra.

I don't like that line of logic. In a 2 on 1 chess game, the difference in player ability is greater than the difference between solo/teams, but it still wouldn't be allowed in a tournament, as there are rules against it.

Yosarian's line of logic is also correct. Mods allowing hydras are by default circumventing that site rule, and saying it doesn't apply for this game, even though it is never really spelled out that way.

I'm not sure when that took over and became the norm, but it seemed to creep in slowly. Allowing that in your games should logically force you to allow any player in the game to be given "talk outside of thread" rights, as a matter of fairness. The current set up with hydras isn't logical or fair.

[Zachrulez]

Why are hydras a huge advantage?

I can say based on my hydra experience with Sotty, our town games do benefit from our differing approaches to the game, but our combined scumgame is substantially weaker due to my shortcomings in that regard. (Where as she is a very strong scumplayer.)

[chamber]

Forcing hydras to only communicate in thread would be asinine. Hydras in my experience generally have a pro-town effect, IE: a town hydra is better than it would be and a scum hydra is worse. Making them communicate only in thread would more or less negate the first aspect, but exaggerate the second to beyond ridiculous.

Its my opinion that this better/worse factor is fairly minor though, and made up for by the fun factor, after all, at the end of the day we play for fun right?

[Greymarble]

Yeah I don't see hydras as a huge advantage at all.
I can't actually think of a single player grouping X, Y, Z where I think Z is the best individually but I think XY hydra is better than Z.

Hoopla's chess comparison is interesting.
It doesn't bother me at all if two people want to play together against me in a chess game at my house.
In a tournament where prestige / money / etc is on the line and I was against siamese twins or somesuch, I would complain to the tournament director.
Mafia feels more like the first case to me.
Team mafia felt a bit more like the second, and I was glad it contained no hydras.

[Hoopla]

after all, at the end of the day we play for fun right?

I never received that memo.

[Magua]

I don't like that line of logic. In a 2 on 1 chess game, the difference in player ability is greater than the difference between solo/teams, but it still wouldn't be allowed in a tournament, as there are rules against it.

In this example, they're not allowed because they're not allowed. Mods can (and do) disallow hydras. Other mods can (and do) allow hydras.

Yosarian's line of logic is also correct. Mods allowing hydras are by default circumventing that site rule, and saying it doesn't apply for this game, even though it is never really spelled out that way.

Er, what? If the mod allows it, it is not against site rules. It's not "circumventing"; the mod is specifically allowing it.

I'm not sure when that took over and became the norm, but it seemed to creep in slowly. Allowing that in your games should logically force you to allow any player in the game to be given "talk outside of thread" rights, as a matter of fairness. The current set up with hydras isn't logical or fair.

If the mod allows hydras, all players are allowed to hydra. So not sure where your "fairness" argument comes in. Want to talk to Glork about the game? Sign up with him as a hydra. Done!

I can understand why some people / mods don't like hydras. I understand the arguments that (for town, at least) two heads are usually better than one. So don't allow them in games you mod. Don't play in games that have them, and/or convince the mod to not allow them.

But any talk that they're against site rules is just a bunch of hooey, and any talk about making them non-Normal is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.

[Hoopla]

Er, what? If the mod allows it, it is not against site rules. It's not "circumventing"; the mod is specifically allowing it.

It is circumvention - if the mod was specifically allowing external communication, I wouldn't have to be in a hydra to externally communicate with someone. The mod isn't allowing that though.

[Magua]

It is circumvention - if the mod was specifically allowing external communication, I wouldn't have to be in a hydra to externally communicate with someone. The mod isn't allowing that though.

You are using a different word than "circumvention." When I allow a hydra into a game I mod, I am specifically allowing those two players to communicate with eachother. The same way that I allow players who have died in the game to talk in the dead QT.

[Slaxx]

Grey, I agree with that analogy, except its not always you or even just one person who is affected by it.

That being said, the reason I said no to my hydras for my game is because my players said no. 3/20 saying no is what it took for me to deny them entry.

I guess if a significant majority of players are okay with it, then its alright. As a mod, you have the responsibility of providing a fun and fair game to your players. Although you might feel differently, I think you should leave it up to your playerlist to decide.

That being said Hydras are more powerful than a single player. Two people taking a test, playing a chess game, brainstorming on a new project, etc. are generally more exceptional than a single person. People might bring up the fact that they argue or get distracted, but on that same note, you get to choose your Hydra partner.

[Hoopla]

It is circumvention - if the mod was specifically allowing external communication, I wouldn't have to be in a hydra to externally communicate with someone. The mod isn't allowing that though.

You are using a different word than "circumvention." When I allow a hydra into a game I mod, I am specifically allowing those two players to communicate with eachother. The same way that I allow players who have died in the game to talk in the dead QT.

Sorry. English isn't my first language - what word should it be? It seems to me like most mods didn't explicitly note they're allowing something which would otherwise be not allowed when choosing to have a hydra in a game. You're implying mods actively choose to given the hydra an exception to the rule, when I think most mods don't think about it.

[Magua]

Sorry. English isn't my first language - what word should it be? It seems to me like most mods didn't explicitly note they're allowing something which would otherwise be not allowed when choosing to have a hydra in a game. You're implying mods actively choose to given the hydra an exception to the rule, when I think most mods don't think about it.

Show me a mod who allowed a hydra in a game and did not think they would talk amongst themselves outside of the game thread.

[Faraday]

I'm a very thoughtful mod.

[Hoopla]

I think hydras being accepted by most people (however that came to be) and seeing them in other games trumps whatever rule they're going against. Being accepted in other games validates them - mods don't think about them beyond that.

[zoraster]

I've banned hydras in the majority of my games. My current game has a rule that a hydra has to have successfully completed a game before playing in mine -- which effectively rules out 90% of hopeful hydraists.

[Magua]

I think hydras being accepted by most people (however that came to be) and seeing them in other games trumps whatever rule they're going against. Being accepted in other games validates them - mods don't think about them beyond that.

They're not going against a rule. Do you think Dead QTs violate any rules?

Your argument is that there exist mods who don't understand that hydra players talk amongst themselves out-of-thread, that these mods allow hydras into their games, and then are surprised to learn that the hydra players were communicating outside of the game without the mod's consent. I do not believe this scenario exists.

[Junpei]

Yeah I don't see hydras as a huge advantage at all.
I can't actually think of a single player grouping X, Y, Z where I think Z is the best individually but I think XY hydra is better than Z.

Hoopla's chess comparison is interesting.
It doesn't bother me at all if two people want to play together against me in a chess game at my house.
In a tournament where prestige / money / etc is on the line and I was against siamese twins or somesuch, I would complain to the tournament director.
Mafia feels more like the first case to me.
Team mafia felt a bit more like the second, and I was glad it contained no hydras.

That's not at all the issue here. It's is XYZ hydra better than player T where X, Y, Z individually are worse than Player T? The answer is (and you can find many examples I'm sure) yes.

And it should bother you@chess example. Lets saying Opponent A was about to do a move that would land you their bishop safely, but Opponent B goes "oh no no don't do that he'll take your bishop! Go here instead and basically trap his rook so he has to chose to sacrifice it or his bishop!". That'd probably be frustrating wouldn't it? Hydras can pull that kind of stuff all the time.

Hydra QT:

"Here's the post I'm about to make (insert post that has a scumslip), anything you want to say before I post it?"

"Oh shi- there's a scumslip, here let me edit that..."

How is that fair again?

[chamber]

Added bureaucracy to posts can severely impact how much control over the game flow you have, on the other hand you could dominate it by both posting without consulting, but then you only hurt the town by being incoherent(as town) and are obvious (as scum). If you take the time to strike a good balance you end up with a role that is slightly better as town imo, and slightly worse as scum, as I've already said. And non-terrible players don't get caught for the type of scum slip you are describing.