Mini 1219 - Bedtime Stories Mafia - Game Over!

[Rainbowdash]

...Your use of ponies in place of people is slightly unsettling.

On a side note, Rainbowdash, it's really annoying when you refer to everybody as ponies.

You two are the ponies using the odd pronouns you know. Anyways, can we be done with theory talks now? Those are only going to get wagons started on the minority opinion pony instead of the scummiest ones, although if it gets a Thomith wagon, there is nothing wrong with that.

hiphop is really streching calling defense of Neruz a slip though, I think everypony has had town reads early on, or at very least somepony they believed was town against popular belief and therefore needed to defend. I think the defense from Thomith is actually a minor town tell given the popular concensus of most ponies that one of Neruz and Thomith are scum. When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

@WV - Please consolidate your reads more between heads. There is quite obviously disagreement between the two of you regarding Thomith and Neruz which I would like you to work out and then respond again with. When its more of a unified read from you, its going to be much easier for the rest of us to get a read on you.

I dislike the Thomith wagon, last page-ish has him leaning town. Huzzah for mid-post read changes. EB is also town. hiphop is likely opposite alignment of Neruz.

[Voidedmafia]

The person who I dislike the most, though, is Voidedmafia. Like Thomith, he has the same need to justify his actions during RVS.

What action? The joking thing about the claim, or my decision not to vote in RVS?

After attacking Neruz for the same thing in 3 different posts, he agrees with Thomith and Rainbowdash about Thomith and then finally places an overdue vote on Neruz before switching it to Thomith for no reasons besides sheeping other people.

Do note I actually brought up on or two of the original points against Thomith. Going to Neruz was more of a sheep than Thomith.

Notice when he places both of these votes is at a time when it looks like they could take off.

A bit too early for that, I think. Though this is merely coincidental.

Which leads me to believe that Neruz and Thomith would both be town if Voided flips scum because at that point it would be clear he was attempting to push mislynches off the ground.

A.) You're assuming I'm scum.
B.) You're assuming that, IF A is true, that I'm not bussing.

Nice to see you're taking my point to vote the person you suspect the most at this point in the game, though.

hiphop is really streching calling defense of Neruz a slip though, I think everypony has had town reads early on, or at very least somepony they believed was town against popular belief and therefore needed to defend.

You're saying someone thought that we were going in the wrong direction and thus needed to get us back on track?

This statement kinda confused me, so I'm asking for clarification.

I think the defense from Thomith is actually a minor town tell given the popular concensus of most ponies that one of Neruz and Thomith are scum.

That could just as easily be a minor scumtell since we don't know if Thomith is scum or not.

When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

True, all Thomith has done so far is pretty much just defend Neruz. I guess I'm not quite getting where you want to go with this statement.

[weirdvoigts]

How do we disagree? Bvoigt and I both think that Thomith and Neruz is scummy, all we disagree on is who is more scummy (although I'm liking the Thomith wagon more and more).

I'm going to answer Thomith's question to Bvoigt for him, as we already discussed this and agree. These are the four motivations you may have for defending Thomith:
1. You are scum defending a townie so that if he flips town, you get townpoints.
2. You are scum defending a buddy, this is less likely due to the obviousness of the defense.
3. You are scum defending a townie trying to fake a reaction, but overdid it.
4. You are town defending someone you legitimately think is town.

Those are the four possible motivations I can think of. As you can see that's a pretty good chance that you are scum.

Let me ask you something. You have the following reads.
Player 1 - Leaning Town
Player 2 - Null
Player 3 - Null
Player 4 - Nullish town
Player 5 - Mixed, slightly town
Player 7 - Town
Player 8 - Null
Player 9 - Null
Player 10 - Obvious Town
Player 11 - Null
Player 12 - Slightly scum
Who do you vote?

~Wierdalexv

[Rainbowdash]

hiphop is really streching calling defense of Neruz a slip though, I think everypony has had town reads early on, or at very least somepony they believed was town against popular belief and therefore needed to defend.

You're saying someone thought that we were going in the wrong direction and thus needed to get us back on track?

This statement kinda confused me, so I'm asking for clarification.

Your response confuses me quite a bit too.

I see zero way to call what was posted by Thomith a scum slip, at all. If he is town, its defending a town read, which everypony should be willing to do when town reads come under attack. I see this as town defending a town read instead of scum trying to get a wagon off a partner or buy town credit. The rest is just me saying that everypony probably has been in the situation like Thomith where they have a town read on somepony who most people think is scummy, and hopefully defended it.

I think the defense from Thomith is actually a minor town tell given the popular concensus of most ponies that one of Neruz and Thomith are scum.

That could just as easily be a minor scumtell since we don't know if Thomith is scum or not.

Do you not understand how this towntell functions? When everypony starts applying a "one of two" scenario, scum being targeted will rarely react like Thomith just did and try to defend the other in the pairing. Even more rare is them competely closing doors for a vote there like he has been doing, ergo its a town tell.

When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

True, all Thomith has done so far is pretty much just defend Neruz. I guess I'm not quite getting where you want to go with this statement.

Its not something scum normally does. So its a towntell.

@WV - You are acting independantly based on assumptions of what the other will do if that even. The more together you two play, the easier it is for the rest of us to get reads from what you are doing. Im going to nip this in the tail before it gets too bad. Use your QT more.

[Voidedmafia]

hiphop is really streching calling defense of Neruz a slip though, I think everypony has had town reads early on, or at very least somepony they believed was town against popular belief and therefore needed to defend.

You're saying someone thought that we were going in the wrong direction and thus needed to get us back on track?

This statement kinda confused me, so I'm asking for clarification.

Your response confuses me quite a bit too.

I see zero way to call what was posted by Thomith a scum slip, at all. If he is town, its defending a town read, which everypony should be willing to do when town reads come under attack. I see this as town defending a town read instead of scum trying to get a wagon off a partner or buy town credit. The rest is just me saying that everypony probably has been in the situation like Thomith where they have a town read on somepony who most people think is scummy, and hopefully defended it.

Ah, got it.

I think the defense from Thomith is actually a minor town tell given the popular concensus of most ponies that one of Neruz and Thomith are scum.

That could just as easily be a minor scumtell since we don't know if Thomith is scum or not.

Do you not understand how this towntell functions? When everypony starts applying a "one of two" scenario, scum being targeted will rarely react like Thomith just did and try to defend the other in the pairing. Even more rare is them competely closing doors for a vote there like he has been doing, ergo its a town tell.

...I guess.

@WV - You are acting independantly based on assumptions of what the other will do if that even. The more together you two play, the easier it is for the rest of us to get reads from what you are doing. Im going to nip this in the tail before it gets too bad. Use your QT more.

Or maybe that's their plan, to keep independent and throw us off?

Okay, I'm gonna stop there before I talk myself into oblivion.

[Neruz]

Wow, i go to sleep and wake up to

this?

[GreyICE]

After breakfast, the children were silent, looking at each other... and then the first accusation started to fly.

Was he really smiling the way he smiled before the school trip? Was she acting just a bit off? Were the two of them talking quietly in the corner trying to make something up, to mislead the other children?

In a room full of scared kids, everything is a threat.

=================================

Vote Count 1.1

Beck(1) -

Deselby

cloudocean(0) -

deselby(0) -

Evil Bullet(0) -

hiphop(1) -

Neruz

implosion(1) -

cloudocean

Neruz(2) -

Implosion, Rainbowdash

Parama(2) -

Beck, Tomith

Rainbowdash(0) -

Sleuth(0) -

Thomith (3) -

Hiphop, Voidedmafia, weirdvoigts,

Voidedmafia(1) -

Evil Bullet,

weirdvoigts(0) -

Not Voting (2) -

Parama, Sleuth,

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch

Current VLAs

~none~

Prod/Replacement Status

~Everyone is within posting guidelines~

Deadline

The day will end in:

(expired on 2011-08-31 21:00:00)

[hiphop]

The person who I dislike the most, though, is Voidedmafia. Like Thomith, he has the same need to justify his actions during RVS. After attacking Neruz for the same thing in 3 different posts, he agrees with Thomith and Rainbowdash about Thomith and then finally places an overdue vote on Neruz before switching it to Thomith for no reasons besides sheeping other people. Notice when he places both of these votes is at a time when it looks like they could take off. Which leads me to believe that Neruz and Thomith would both be town if Voided flips scum because at that point it would be clear he was attempting to push mislynches off the ground.

vote: Voidedmafia

I see your point, but I am looking at it more along the lines of Voided fence-sitting on Neruz, but bussing on Thomith. For if you look, I started to push Thomith before he voted for Neruz. Almost like he wanted to keep the Neruz wagon going, but it wasn't until after Wierd changed his vote, to follow me, did he switch, which looks like a bus.

On a side note, Rainbowdash and GreyIce are starting to scare me with their fantasies.

[Evil Bullet]

I'm going to answer Thomith's question to Bvoigt for him, as we already discussed this and agree. These are the four motivations you may have for defending Thomith:
1. You are scum defending a townie so that if he flips town, you get townpoints.
2. You are scum defending a buddy, this is less likely due to the obviousness of the defense.
3. You are scum defending a townie trying to fake a reaction, but overdid it.
4. You are town defending someone you legitimately think is town.
Those are the four possible motivations I can think of. As you can see that's a pretty good chance that you are scum.

I think this post is ridiculously scummy but I'm not gonna do anything about it because there's a maximum 30% chance you're scum so you're probably town. Hmm I should just stop having reads actually. There's a pretty good chance that everyone is town.

Voided:
1. The latter.
2. Noted. Admitted to sheeping. K.
3. This is the equivalent of the "you're taking RVS too seriously" argument.
4A). Yes
4B). Yes

Wow, i go to sleep and wake up to

this?

Not sure what he's referring to...

predit: Hiphop, you're assuming that Thomith is scum, which is all well and good, but I'm not sure I agree with.

[Neruz]

Wow, i go to sleep and wake up to

this?

Not sure what he's referring to...

I went to sleep after Thomith and Voidedmafia had each overreacted to the other a bit and generally been either slightly scummy or mildly stupid. I come back to discover they set off a resonance cascade of ever escalating absurdity over the next three pages.

And there's also fucking ponies.

VOTE: Thomith for scummy reaction to early pressure.

FOS: Voidedmafia

for taking Thomith's overreaction and running with it like an opportunistic scum.

One of these two is probably scum, possibly both if one is third party. I can't see two townies having that interaction with each other.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided:
1. The latter.

I've had people get on me when I just outright state I'm not RVSing, so I'm going for a more lax approach.

2. Noted. Admitted to sheeping. K.

Never said I sheeped. Just that voting Neruz would be more of a sheep than Thomith largely because I actually had original points against Thomith originally, instead of just building off or previous points for neruz.

3. This is the equivalent of the "you're taking RVS too seriously" argument.

I'm saying it's coincidental because it wouldn't have mattered if there were no votes or l-3, I probably would've done the same thing (I'm excluding L-2 and L-1 because those lead to L-1 and hammer with my vote, respectively, and that's not something you take lightly).

4A). Yes

More proof?

4B). Yes

More proof?

And there's also fucking ponies.

Word.

[hiphop]

predit: Hiphop, you're assuming that Thomith is scum, which is all well and good, but I'm not sure I agree with.

You said if voided flips scum, then Thomith and neruz are cleared. But what if Thomith flips scum, does that make Voided clear to you? The above indicates not. So if Voided and Thomith are both scum, and Thomith flips before Voided, then Voided is possilbe scum, but if Voided flips before Thomith, then Thomith is town? How does that make sense? More then likely they are both scum. Or am I missing something?

[hiphop]

I see zero way to call what was posted by Thomith a scum slip, at all. If he is town, its defending a town read, which everypony should be willing to do when town reads come under attack. I see this as town defending a town read instead of scum trying to get a wagon off a partner or buy town credit. The rest is just me saying that everypony probably has been in the situation like Thomith where they have a town read on somepony who most

people

think is scummy, and hopefully defended it.

Please clarify the term "people".

[Neruz]

Considering we supposidly have three Cults in play, i wouldn't be surprised if Thomith and Voided both turn out to be Cult Leaders.

[hiphop]

Considering we supposidly have three Cults in play, i wouldn't be surprised if Thomith and Voided both turn out to be Cult Leaders.

You know I was going to bring this up, but it kept slipping my mind

GreyICE- Your flavor lacks cults, please remedy this enigma soon, Thanks.

[Rainbowdash]

And there's also fucking ponies.

Word.

If you want me to start roleplaying instead of just doing pony speak say so. But my talking and pictures are staying, not like they are distracting me in the getting stuff done department.

I see zero way to call what was posted by Thomith a scum slip, at all. If he is town, its defending a town read, which everypony should be willing to do when town reads come under attack. I see this as town defending a town read instead of scum trying to get a wagon off a partner or buy town credit. The rest is just me saying that everypony probably has been in the situation like Thomith where they have a town read on somepony who most

people

think is scummy, and hopefully defended it.

Please clarify the term "people".

I think you ponies are rubbing off on me a bit.

If it actually wasn't a shot at me which im pretty sure it was - Neruz took a random wagon early, so most ponies were reading him as scummy, Thomith disagreed and defended.

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

Third party talk from Neruz bugs me a bit since I could nearly guarentee you that there is no third party in this game and its a great scum scare tactic to throw that in.

Going to say Thomith and EB are probably town at this point. WV jumps way up the list for attacking ponies who are defending town reads. There is asbolutely nothing wrong with defending a town read ever. Giving all the possibilites that you did really only works if you are going to argue each one has the same probability of occuring, and I may be a pony, but I know enough about the maths to say this is false. Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees depending on strength of reads.

[Neruz]

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

I cannot, such absolutes do not exist in Mafia.

Third party talk from Neruz bugs me a bit since I could nearly guarentee you that there is no third party in this game and its a great scum scare tactic to throw that in.

GreyICE advertised this game specifically as being the first normal game to be approved with three cult leaders. I have no idea if he was serious or just dicking around though.

[Rainbowdash]

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

I cannot, such absolutes do not exist in Mafia.

Fine. Explain why the exchange between Thomith and VM "probably" cannot come from town v town.

Being snide will get you nowhere.

Third party talk from Neruz bugs me a bit since I could nearly guarentee you that there is no third party in this game and its a great scum scare tactic to throw that in.

GreyICE advertised this game specifically as being the first normal game to be approved with three cult leaders. I have no idea if he was serious or just dicking around though.

Unless I fail to understand the definiton of normal, cults are not normal, and cannot exist in a normal game. I still can basically give you that "absolute" that there is no cult. Stop trying to spread paranoia.

[Evil Bullet]

Normal = we have no knowledge of setup.

[Rainbowdash]

Normal = we have no knowledge of setup.

Not according to the wikipedia. Normal means only certain roles can exist.

To quote

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
~Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
~Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
~Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
~Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
~Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
~Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
~Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).
Roles which are explicitly Normal include:
~Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Framer, Mafia-aligned versions of above roles
Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:
~Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)
Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
~Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

QED

No Cult, as per that big "No Cult" first line.

No more paranoia.

[/instruction]

I mean seriously, im apparently the new pony on the block and I know more about what these games are then people who have been here for a bit? Come on everypony, this site is supposedly known for the wikipedia aspect of it.

[hiphop]

Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees

depending on strength of reads.

The bolded says it all. I considerably doubt that Thomith could have a strong read on Neruz at that stage of the game, which would lead to him knowing his alignment, A.k.a Scum.

Grey would it be ok if I quoted your advertisement in thread?

[Rainbowdash]

Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees

depending on strength of reads.

The bolded says it all. I considerably doubt that Thomith could have a strong read on Neruz at that stage of the game, which would lead to him knowing his alignment, A.k.a Scum.

No?

I already have a few town reads that I see as enough to defend people a little. Sometimes you just see a post that makes you go "WOW that pony is town", it could happen early in the game or late, but it can happen.

Please though, don't be Derpy. The guidelines on the wiki explicitly say no cults allowed.

[hiphop]

Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees

depending on strength of reads.

The bolded says it all. I considerably doubt that Thomith could have a strong read on Neruz at that stage of the game, which would lead to him knowing his alignment, A.k.a Scum.

[Rainbowdash]

Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees

depending on strength of reads.

The bolded says it all. I considerably doubt that Thomith could have a strong read on Neruz at that stage of the game, which would lead to him knowing his alignment, A.k.a Scum.

[hiphop]

I don't understand the above.