Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[NihilisticNinja]

afraid of looking suspicious eh saulres?

Huh? No, not really. I believe we're all going to look suspicious at one point or another.

This, and this

Are we still in RVS so I can change my vote without it looking suspicious?

Seem to contradict each other.

Am a bit busy at the moment, so I haven't been able to view the game thoroughly yet. Will pop in later today and give a more detailed look.

[saulres]

Sigh. I can't win with RVS.

There are good reasons I tried to avoid it this time. Maybe next game I'll just post one random vote and not say anything else for a while.

If I can keep my big mouth shut that long

[Maruchan]

Wow Thor, how is it you have managed to avoid a game with RQS in like EVERY one of your completed games?!?

So anyways, I can't link you guys to any proof as in all of Tjor's (completed) Games I read (the first 12, I read the first 4-5 pages), RQS doesn't happen. BUT! I can vouch for the fact that when RQS DOES happen, he does not like it. I am just not allowed to show proof of this. -.-

[Supreme Overlord]

VOTE: RoboThor
Hi Robo.

Mod, can I have a vote allocated to me in the votecount? Please and thankyou.

What I am saying is that RVS is still started to accomplish something- I don't need 20 pages of people dilly dallying just because they thought of funny jokes. Also, it allows for scum to slide by and change their votes with very little reasoning as well. My thoughts: Change you vote if you want, if you are town you shouldn't be worried anyway- but you should always be prepared to explain yourself because there are all sorts of different types of players. I don't like RVS to last FOREVER, but it's only been a few hours and my vote changed once.

My opinion of RVS is that people should start voting 'seriously' ASAP, even if it is for a flimsy reason. At least that way game-relevent converation will get going.

[Maruchan]

Technically. thats what it is. They use flimsy ass reasons to serious vote, IE: they dislike some, they LIKE someone, someone is a terrible player in past games, someone is an AWESOME player in past games, their name sounds wrong. their avatar is funky, and so on. We just call it Random, because we don't want to call it "flimsy-ass excuse voting stage"

[thunderwielder]

I love how active this game is thus far! Woo!

I'm heading out soonish, and I'm planning on posting again addressing somethings tonight, but for now, I would like to start with some Random Questions that aren't so random.

I don't think Thor has an issue with Questions (he was in my last game), I think he has an issue with Random Questions. I tried asking some "Random Questions" at the beginning of my last game, and (although Thor hadn't replaced in) I caught flak from a bunch of players, because they were kind of useless and I was just trying to get something started since my game was lulling at the very beginning.

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?


The responses (so it's easier for people quoting--you're welcome, I know I'm fantastic).

1)I'm in EDT (Ontario, Canada)
2)I have played two games on this site (just replaced into an ongoing third), and I have played one game off the site with a bunch of my friends (which is what made me want to play with new people--since we were all really new and it was kind of a shit show)
3)This question might be not too useful. I post as much as I can. I haven't played much Mafia, so I'm still in that "addicted to it like a drug" phase, but I'm working right now, so most of my posts will be at night (at least for the next tiny bit). I'm also moving in the beginning of September, and still need to find a new place and get it set up, but once I do that, my frequency will drastically increase. However, I post as much as I can. I quite enjoy this game as one of my main pastimes at the current moment in time.


I gotta go, hopefully I'll post again before going to bed to actually address things that have happened in the game, and not just spout jibber jabber (Thor! You get it!)

[glowball]

I generally find RQS fluff, but I will answer questions if they help....

1.) Always good to know- PDT
2.) You can always check the wiki for this information- fluff.
3.)NOT IMPORTANT

[Nobody Special]

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?

1) Pacific -- it's currently 4:14PM
2) Been here just over a year and a half; 30+ games
3) Sometimes I post forty times a day, sometimes I don't post for a whole day or two. It depends on how busy work is.

[Maruchan]

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?

1. CDT (Central Daylight Time, mid-eastern US)
2. 6 months of EpicMafia before getting myself banned whilst outting a cheater. 1 Completed game on-site, 2 games I have been killed/lynched from, and currently in 7, 1 of which is night, 1 of which is pre-game ans stalling, 1 of which is just plain stalling.
3. I expect to post at least once every page of the thread, if not half of every page, except for the 10-12 hours a night I sleep.

Don't say I didn't warn you

[Maruchan]

I generally find RQS fluff, but I will answer questions if they help....

1.) Always good to know- PDT
2.) You can always check the wiki for this information- fluff.
3.)NOT IMPORTANT

Not everyone has made themselves a wiki. Jus Sayin.

[Auckmid]

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?

1) PDT
2) I have previous played 2 games start to finnish. I often don't have to much time, so at the moment, I am only ever in 1 game at a time. I have been a member to mafiascum for a few weeks now.
3)I normaly try to post at least once per day.

[NihilisticNinja]

Not busy anymore.

Nobody Special, why did you change your random vote from RoboThor to Amrun? And if you were going to change your vote, why not join the Auckmid wagon?

I disagree with Maruchan's #21. Not participating in RVS voting itself is more or less a nulltell. Though voting is the typical way to get out of the RVS, there are plenty of people who dislike it, and feel there are superior methods. And meta on RVS participation is just silly. People change from game to game, and people change approaches on how to get out of the RVS and generate conversation. Also, nice fence-sitting there. Do you feel that saulres' lack of a RVS vote makes him scummy or not?

Also, I'm not sure I completely understand why you so thoroughly wish to stop any RQS, Maruchan. Why do you care so much about RoboThor jumping on anybody? Especially if you "LOVE" the RQS? After all, they could be scum anyway and therefore deserve the pressure, right? And interactions between RoboThor and the RQS-starter could give the town a good deal of information, no?

I don't like thunderwielder's random questions. Not because they are random, but because they don't seem to give the town that much information on the other players. Scum often ask generic questions like these, because it makes it look like the player is contributing, when they aren't. That said:

1) I live in California, so I'm in the pacific.
2) Pretty irrelevant, but I played a couple of games on Mafiascum a couple years ago, that I then proceeded to flake out of. Have also played a bit of EpicMafia.
3) Also irrelevant, but I will hopefully post at least once a day, though I will only post when I see something worth talking about, of course.

Now, for the meat.

Sigh. I can't win with RVS.

There are good reasons I tried to avoid it this time. Maybe next game I'll just post one random vote and not say anything else for a while.

This is dodging the question. There is nothing wrong with posting two random votes-though it is interesting-but that's not what the contradiction was about. The contradiction was that you asked if you could change votes without being suspicious, indicating that you cared whether or not you looked suspicious, and then saying that you didn't care whether people found you suspicious or not.

In fact, Glowball asked the same question earlier:

Why are you worried? You will only look suspicious if you are suspicious. Why would you need to change a RANDOM vote anyway?

You dodged it then, too, answering the second question, but not the first.

To clarify, here is the question: Why did you care if changing random votes would make you look suspicious, if you don't care if you look suspicious or not?

Vote: saulres

I like this wagon.

In other news, liking glowball this far. Asking the right questions, pushing the right players.

Nobody Special, Auckmid, Supreme Overlord: any thoughts on the game thus far?

[glowball]

OF COURSE YOU LIKE GLOWBALL SO FAR- EVERYONE LOVES GLOWBALL

[Maruchan]

I disagree with Maruchan's #21. Not participating in RVS voting itself is more or less a nulltell. Though voting is the typical way to get out of the RVS, there are plenty of people who dislike it, and feel there are superior methods. And meta on RVS participation is just silly. People change from game to game, and people change approaches on how to get out of the RVS and generate conversation. Also, nice fence-sitting there. Do you feel that saulres' lack of a RVS vote makes him scummy or not?

so I am not saying your lack of one makes you scummy)

So you say not voting is a null-tell. Then call me saying it is a null-tell, fence sitting. Either we are BOTH fence sitting, or NEITHER of us is. Pick your Poison. (cwutididthat )

Also, I'm not sure I completely understand why you so thoroughly wish to stop any RQS, Maruchan. Why do you care so much about RoboThor jumping on anybody? Especially if you "LOVE" the RQS?

I am not at liberty to discuss this at the moment, ask me again in a month and a half.

After all, they could be scum anyway and therefore deserve the pressure, right?

Possible. However the odds are a townie will say it, as there are 9 townies and only 3 scum. Therefore I figured it helped town more to warn the townies that it hurt town to warn the scummies.

And interactions between RoboThor and the RQS-starter could give the town a good deal of information, no?

Oh I totally agree! Anything that starts interaction between players is a good thing (such as my telling you all to not RQS is doing). However it stops being as good when innocent townies get lynched.

Scum often ask generic questions like these, because it makes it look like the player is contributing, when they aren't.

I honestly do not believe the questions asked in RQS are any indication of ones alignment.

Vote: saulres

Ahh see, if I hadn't made my comment about RVS, Saulres wouldn't feel the need to ask about appearing scummy, therefore you wouldn't have your main case right now. Everyone always calls my actions scummy, but I do WHAT I do, because it causes interaction! Even if it sticks me front and center for people's attention ,and therefore scrutiny, most of the time, The interaction between members is worth it! This is the crux of my playstyle, and thats why I am so overtly-aggressive about the LITTLE things early-on. It puts pressure on those causing the little things, causing them to make bigger things.

In other news, liking glowball this far. Asking the right questions, pushing the right players.

[quote"

B

Glowball"]OF COURSE YOU LIKE GLOWBALL SO FAR- EVERYONE LOVES GLOWBALL[/quote]
(I'm sorry, but this has become an inside joke to funny to pass up)
agreed.

[Maruchan]

DAMN IT THE

TAG IN THE QUOTE NAME DOESN'T WORK. >:(

[glowball]

Oh I totally agree! Anything that starts interaction between players is a good thing (such as my telling you all to not RQS is doing). However it stops being as good when innocent townies get lynched.

Um, townies are a usual casualty day 1- it is to be expected and ANY interaction and subsequent wagon votes or lack there of can help the town greatly. All interactions regardless of flip can be used for good.

[Nobody Special]

DAMN IT THE

TAG IN THE QUOTE NAME DOESN'T WORK. >:(

It does, you just forgot the = sign.

P-Edit: Well, okay, even with the = it doesn't work. We need to fix that.

[saulres]

Why did you care if changing random votes would make you look suspicious, if you don't care if you look suspicious or not?

I'll answer this, after I answer the random questions. And then everyone will throw the "why are you playing the newbie card so much" at me.

1) I'm in the US, but I'd rather not say where for reasons which have nothing to do with the game. PM me after the game's over if you're that curious.
2) This is my 2nd game here, both of which are currently in day 1. I've played one game on one other site.
3) Probably a lot, if history is any indication.

Now, NihilisticNinja, to answer your question: Because I'm still trying to learn how RVS works exactly. It wasn't in the off-site game I played and was in both games I'm playing on this site. I'm trying to learn how it works for future games, as no one else seems to go through the same grilling I do over how I play RVS.

[Maruchan]

DAMN IT THE

TAG IN THE QUOTE NAME DOESN'T WORK. >:(

It does, you just forgot the = sign.

P-Edit: Well, okay, even with the = it doesn't work. We need to fix that.

i seriously laughed out loud at that. Thank you for making my day. ♥

[Maruchan]

Now, NihilisticNinja, to answer your question: Because I'm still trying to learn how RVS works exactly. It wasn't in the off-site game I played and was in both games I'm playing on this site. I'm trying to learn how it works for future games, as no one else seems to go through the same grilling I do over how I play RVS.

Ah but you see, I am not in their games.

[Nobody Special]

Nobody Special, why did you change your random vote from RoboThor to Amrun? And if you were going to change your vote, why not join the Auckmid wagon?

Because I don't like hydrae.

Nobody Special, Auckmid, Supreme Overlord: any thoughts on the game thus far?

Nope. None whatsoever. Too early.

[Xalxe]

Mod, can I have a vote allocated to me in the votecount? Please and thankyou.

No. And by "No," I mean "here's a votecount that I've tried my darndest not to royally screw up."

Votecount 1.3

saulres (4)

: thunderwielder, Maruchan, glowball, NihilisticNinja
RoboThor (2): Auckmid, Supreme Overlord
Amrun (1): Nobody Special
Auckmid (1): Amrun
lane0168 (1): saulres
NihilisticNinja (1): JonWJ007
Maruchan (1): lane0168

Not Voting (1)

: RoboThor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: August 13 ((expired on 2011-08-30 14:58:38))

On your left is the Hauptbahnhof, the main train station for Munich. I'd hate to see anybody fall down onto the tracks...

[Supreme Overlord]

Technically. thats what it is. They use flimsy ass reasons to serious vote, IE: they dislike some, they LIKE someone, someone is a terrible player in past games, someone is an AWESOME player in past games, their name sounds wrong. their avatar is funky, and so on. We just call it Random, because we don't want to call it "flimsy-ass excuse voting stage"

Not exactly what I meant, and not really that important; I'd call it three stages: flimsy/random, weak-but-relevent, then actual real/strong votes.

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?

1. AEST; GMT+10. It's 11:10am.
2. This will be my sixth game, and my first non-newbie. I started playing at the start of the year.
3. During the day on weekdays; whenever I get the chance and there's something to respond to.

I don't like thunderwielder's random questions. Not because they are random, but because they don't seem to give the town that much information on the other players. Scum often ask generic questions like these, because it makes it look like the player is contributing, when they aren't.

I think it's reasonable enough; there's not all that much being said right now, and it's convenient to know when might be a good time to check the thread.

Nobody Special, Auckmid, Supreme Overlord: any thoughts on the game thus far?

Some of the things saulres is saying seems to be forestalling accusations:

And then everyone will throw the "why are you playing the newbie card so much" at me.

It's kind of like if someone says 'you're playing the newbie card', he can react 'see, I knew you'd say that' and bruch it off.

I'm trying to learn how it works for future games, as no one else seems to go through the same grilling I do over how I play RVS.

A bit like 'leave me alone, I'm still learning' (which, know I think about it, does seem a bit like playing the newbie card).

Ahh see, if I hadn't made my comment about RVS, Saulres wouldn't feel the need to ask about appearing scummy, therefore you wouldn't have your main case right now. Everyone always calls my actions scummy, but I do WHAT I do, because it causes interaction! Even if it sticks me front and center for people's attention ,and therefore scrutiny, most of the time, The interaction between members is worth it! This is the crux of my playstyle, and thats why I am so overtly-aggressive about the LITTLE things early-on. It puts pressure on those causing the little things, causing them to make bigger things.

Eh, what you have to be able to balance is the risks of appearing scummy with the rewards of provoking interaction. Also, this looks like you're trying to take credit for the first 'real' vote. I doubt your post (which prompted saulres to vote in the first place) had a large effect on him questioning whether to change his vote later on.

I like the vote though, keep em comin!

Okay. UNVOTE: RoboThor, VOTE: Maruchan

[Maruchan]

Ahh see, if I hadn't made my comment about RVS, Saulres wouldn't feel the need to ask about appearing scummy, therefore you wouldn't have your main case right now. Everyone always calls my actions scummy, but I do WHAT I do, because it causes interaction! Even if it sticks me front and center for people's attention ,and therefore scrutiny, most of the time, The interaction between members is worth it! This is the crux of my playstyle, and thats why I am so overtly-aggressive about the LITTLE things early-on. It puts pressure on those causing the little things, causing them to make bigger things.

Eh, what you have to be able to balance is the risks of appearing scummy with the rewards of provoking interaction. Also, this looks like you're trying to take credit for the first 'real' vote. I doubt your post (which prompted saulres to vote in the first place) had a large effect on him questioning whether to change his vote later on.

No? I think thats EXACTLY why he "sarcastically" asked about appearing scummy later. I said something he did is a possible-scum-action, and so he is worried about appearing scum. And no, I am not trying to take credit for the bandwaggon, whether its a BW on scum or town. I am just trying to show that my way of nitpicking every little post DOES bring interaction, and brings a lot of attention to me. Which if I was scum is a bad thing, so why would I so it? Iunno. Beats me. And I have to balance the risk of appearing scummy? Wait I thought we were upset with Saulres for caring about appearing scummy. So only scum have to care about appearing scummy.

We can't keep this double standards! Either we have to say that Saulres caring if he appears scummy is a SCUM tell, in which case my lack of caring is a null or town tell. OR we have to say that Maruchan's lack of caring how he appears is a null or scum tell, in which case Saulres' caring is a TOWN tell.

Pick one, you can't have it both ways. It can't be scummy to care while being scummy to not care.

I like the vote though, keep em comin!

Okay. UNVOTE: RoboThor, VOTE: Maruchan

WOOT WOOT THERE'S NUMBER 2!

[glowball]

This whole caring vs. not caring

scum reactions vs town reactions

BOTH CAN BE FAKED- it's all about how genuine each seems... and TOWN TELLS and SCUM TELLS vary from person to person. So, Maruchan don't try to push it into your favor.