Civilization Mafia - Town Wins!

[EmpTyger]

Thok:
That’s not the point; the point is that bombardment allows antitowns to match a town’s development. So the advantage I saw to no-lynching is lost. So now that we’re voting...

You were strongly against no-lynching without any analysis (with what Puzzle called “blind opposition”) when I was advocating it was in the town’s best interest. But when VizM showed it wasn’t, you continued to defend that idea.

You accused me of “flooding with numbers” when you defended VizM’s numbers, again without any analysis, in [67]. Yet not only were my revised numbers correct and VizM’s wrong, but you were portraying the act of analysis as inherently suspicious.

The vague instructions to refer to N128 seem to be baseless attempts to focus suspicion onto me for actions in another game. Because I’m not sure how else to interpret your “logic”, since I do not genuinely believe you believe yourself. I mean, you’re basically saying that since I would act as a protown when I’m guilty, therefore if I act protown I’m suspicious. Likewise the reference to Hospital mafia, which I still don’t see any point to have mentioned.

And as for that random FoS in my first post, it was intended as 98% humor, but with the realization that if you were guilty, you might overreact. And I don’t see how you’d be reacting the way you did if you were innocent.

You’re normally a much better player than this, and I think the best explanation for the lapse is guilt.

Vote: Thok

.

[armlx]

Yeah! You now realize this!!!

Vote stands on inhim for now wanting to break the game.

[Thok]

EmpTyger, you're confusing my laziness with scuminess. I actually haven't been spending too much time worrying about the numbers-either a simple approximation will give us roughly the right answer, or there will be too many details for us to deal with.

If you didn't want me to jump on you for a random FOS, perhaps you should have included a smiley or a [/sarcasm] comment? It seemed extremely weird, especially coming in a post where you specifically tried to kill off all discussion of suspicions, except for a no lynch strategy.

My point about hospital mafia is that we can learn information about who to lynch by seeing how people react to bandwagons and voting trends. The single biggest event that caught a bunch of scum in that game was when Pooky started a bandwagon on BJ; a bunch of scum jumped on the wagon and were promptly lynched. Similarly, nobody tried to support me when I voted you; I'm trying to figure out what that means.

Finally, I've said this before, but I'm not that useful of a day 1 player, especially protown. I need information to catch people, and right now there isn't that much to go on.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm likewise concerned about how we suddenly got to "no lynch is useless", but I suspect it's a numbers issue we're not catching. Even if the barbarians do build roleblockers, wouldn't that mean they'd be giving up at least some ability to vigilante-kill us? I don't necessarily see it as an optimal strategy for them, and I'm curious why EmpTyger now believes it's broken beyond repair.

Thok and ET certainly don't seem to be on the same side, but I'm not sure where to go with that right now...

Unvote

my earlier random vote, however; it's not based on anything and I don't want any accidents.

[inHimshallibe]

armlx, I never said I was against it. I said it wasn't fun.

[armlx]

Mr. Flay: Do you really think that all the barbarians can vig kill? Its rediculous what happenss if they can.

Inhim: Same thing.

[mlaker]

I must say that the barbarians are outnumbered logically this would mean they have better night actions than us. I'd be for playing the actual game and working for this another night when more is known. However if a majority agrees upon the no lynch investigate method I'll do it.

[armlx]

I say Lynch + Investigate. Lynch = our way to kill them. Sacrificing lynch = nonbo with game.

[dybeck]

You're probably right.

unvote: No Lynch

Sicne we've had plenty of discussion it shouldn't be hard to find someone that looks scummy. I'm going to reread and see what's there.

[inHimshallibe]

armlx, I posted nothing in-between your vote and your confirm vote - what's that about?

Plus, why aren't you throwing suspicion on roland?

[armlx]

Inhim: Did Roland say something??? I only seem to remember you saying something about not breaking the game. Maybes its just that I remember the crazy painter guy avatar more then the bouncing tomato-thing.

FOS Roland

to show I care.

[rolandofthewhite]

I indeed said something as well. I don't particularly think that breaking a game is fun at all, and I'd rather play the game, even if it didn't mean a guarenteed win.

[Puzzle]

@ mod :

We may really need some prods, here. I've been away andback and a few still haven't posted yet.

Else, I'm still happy with my vote but may open to others.

[VisMaior]

This game seems to have grinded to a halt. (a common occurence in games Im playing in... Whats with that?)

i found the "flooding numbers" argument of thok odd as well. I think correct math is good, its never useless to apply a bit more tought in a math problem, because everyone can make mistakes (I know, I did...). it seems like Thok wanted to use my stupidity against Emp.

vote thok

[Astronaut]

Tell me again: Why did we move away from the no lynch plan?

[Bamboomancer]

because it was a stupid plan.

[EmpTyger]

Thok:

<snip>If you didn't want me to jump on you for a random FOS, perhaps you should have included a smiley or a [/sarcasm] comment? It seemed extremely weird, especially coming in a post where you specifically tried to kill off all discussion of suspicions, except for a no lynch strategy.

Oh, I was quite interested in whether you would jump on me or not. I believe you saw an excuse to begin focusing suspicion onto me and ran with it.
Let me put this another way. Let’s say I “random vote: Thok”ed. Would that have excused your “jumping on me”? Moreover, you were in Mafia 128. You immediately recognized my reference. And you’ve been in enough other games with me to be aware of my style. Yet nevertheless you made [21]- and I cannot see any way you would make that post as an innocent.

<snip>Finally, I've said this before, but I'm not that useful of a day 1 player, especially protown. I need information to catch people, and right now there isn't that much to go on.

I played with you in the Poker mini. I *know* you are more than capable of analyzing and exploring unusual mechanics and setups on Day 1.


Mr. Flay:

<snip>Thok and ET certainly don't seem to be on the same side, but I'm not sure where to go with that right now<snip>

This statement jumped out at me. If, as you are implying, you’re not yet sure of either of our alignments, then why do you think that about our relative alignment? That is, if you aren’t sure which of us might be innocent or guilty, why would you think one of us had to be, instead of, say, us both being innocent? (Not that *I* think this is true, but *I* can make this conclusion because *I* know my own alignment and *I* feel confident about Thok, neither of which is seem to be true for *you*.)


inHim:
I’m not really sure what to make of your “not wanting to break the game” but having seen innocents in other games speak similarly, I’m going to draw any conclusion automatically about your alignment. Are there any other games in which you’ve expressed similar sentiments?


Astronaut:

Tell me again: Why did we move away from the no lynch plan?

The presumption was that the town had better opportunities of development at night because of our superior numbers. However, there is a possibility that antitowns get access to roleblockers, which, potentially canceling out an entire townsperson’s development regardless of the time spend on development. Thus, as with traditional setups when night is unequivocally advantageous to mafia, no-lynch is an incorrect play.
“because it was a stupid plan.”, while an oversimplification, isn’t entirely inaccurate.


Puzzle:
Prods are all well and good, but as a matter of personal preference, I’d rather we also call out specific people on lurking rather than merely relying on the mod. I’d have to reread the thread to figure out who that would be besides MoS...

[Thok]

I played with you in the Poker mini. I *know* you are more than capable of analyzing and exploring unusual mechanics and setups on Day 1.

I'll point out that I was scum there, which means I had a decent amount of information to start the game, more so than I do now.

EmpTyger, my bandwagon has taken way too long to develop, so either I'm scum and my partners are trying to avoid voting me or our scum consists of some hard-core lurkers. Since I know I'm innocent (I haven't gotten any support from anybody), I'm going to spend some time looking for lurkers. Let's try

unvote, vote swinkee

FOS MOS, coporate claw

, with possibly some others to be added to the lurker list.

(Note: There is an additional benefit to hunting lurkers, as they are more likely to miss night actions, which is clearly bad for town if they are townie.)

[swinkee]

I'm here, I'm here. I've been reading along with the thread, and oddly enough had nothing really to say. Bad tendency of mine, just like responding immediately after being called out for lurking. I'll reread the thread and put out my thoughts soon.

[Astronaut]

Tell me again: Why did we move away from the no lynch plan?

because it was a stupid plan.

As a wise man once said: This is not helpful.

The presumption was that the town had better opportunities of development at night because of our superior numbers. However, there is a possibility that antitowns get access to roleblockers, which, potentially canceling out an entire townsperson’s development regardless of the time spend on development.

We don't know that the barbarians can build roleblockers, and he wouldn't be able to cancel more than that specific night's development.

I'm still not convinced no lynch wouldn't be the better option, but if you can point out a scummy-looking person to me, I'll consider joining your bandwagon.

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay:

<snip>Thok and ET certainly don't seem to be on the same side, but I'm not sure where to go with that right now<snip>

This statement jumped out at me. If, as you are implying, you’re not yet sure of either of our alignments, then why do you think that about our relative alignment? That is, if you aren’t sure which of us might be innocent or guilty, why would you think one of us had to be, instead of, say, us both being innocent? (Not that *I* think this is true, but *I* can make this conclusion because *I* know my own alignment and *I* feel confident about Thok, neither of which is seem to be true for *you*.)

You don't feel that I know my own alignment? I'm not sure of you and Thok being scum or town, all I'm saying is that you don't appear to be on the same side. That means one of four things in my world:

1. Thok is scum, and EmpTyger is not;
   
2. EmpTyger is scum, and Thok is not;
   
3. neither EmpTyger or Thok are scum, but they aren't getting along;
   
4. Both EmpTyger and Thok are scum, but are either on opposite sides, or creating alibis.

In other words, I don't have anywhere to go with this, which is exactly what I said. I am making notes for myself for later, however. I have been trying to follow the discussion, and am still not convinced why No Lynch is suddenly untenable because the scum MIGHT be able to get roleblockers (do we think there's a single scum group of size 7, or that they can build enough roleblockers each night to stymie the town forever from here on out?) I don't understand your quick abandonment of your original idea.

Mr. Flay: Do you really think that all the barbarians can vig kill? Its rediculous what happenss if they can.

Do you really think all of our units will be 100% successful? Or that barbarian vigilantes will be 100% successful every night? What exactly is your point, here?

However,

Vote: dybeck

, my current candidate for scum. His non-content posts seem to go with the ebb and flow, not really adding anything new. If he's scum, then a good look at Puzzle is warranted (via random vote tell).

Did we ever decide how to proceed tonight? Every civ for themself?

[armlx]

Mr. Flay: My logic is even assuming a 4 person barbarians group, that equals to an average of 1 extra kill on night 2, 2 on night 3, 3 on night 4..... Thats rediculous.

[SinisterOverlord]

Sire, the votes stand as follows:

inHimshallibe: 2 (rolandofthewhite, armlx)
Thok: 2 (EmpTyger, VisMaior)
No Lynch: 1 (rajrhcpfreak)
dybeck: 1 (Puzzle)
Mr. Flay: 1 (HezLucky)
HezLucky: 1 (d_rouge)
swinkee: 1 (Thok)

10 to lynch.

[rajrhcpfreak]

OK dont try it for a day...

5 pages of discussion down the drain.

personally i dont like the way roland is playing at all. every game im in hes lurking and posting the bare min just to keep out of the town's eyes.

I dont want that here and it looks like he playing that way agian.

Inhim has 2 votes.... one of them is a random from roland....

i thought that we are past the random stage...
if he didnt want to break the game he should have voted for one of the people sugesting it. then we are leaving the no lynch phase and to more suspiscious people and roland has kept his random vote. not voteing or not changing your vote is the easiest way to keep people happy. your not going to make people mad by voting for them

If we are going to get rid of lurkers then lets get rid of roland... hes infavor of playing the hard way. and hes not being bold in speaking his mind (atleast is who he thinks is scum). i can see in other games if you have a power role you would try to not attract attention to yourself, but in this game we are all equally powerful.

In themes i think there is a different way to play the game. like in wild west we use the duels to our advantage. or in this game we no lynch a round to get our investigations and powers up.

vote roland

for lurking and trying to hinder the town from getting investigations. remember a no lynch is helping the town, so people not voting or refuse to play the game that way has a good chance of being scum.

[HezLucky]

I'm here.

Unvote: Mr. Flay

since that vote is nothing but random.

Personally, I would rather NOT have someone directing what everyone does at night. Let's leave a little bit of mystery to the mafia eh? After all, we aren't quite sure what powers they have.

Claiming will be interesting later on in this game. I wonder if there are any non-vanilla civs.