Civilization Mafia - Town Wins!

[rajrhcpfreak]

im willing to try it.

vote: no lynch

we may find out real soon that it dosent work as well as we thought.

[SinisterOverlord]

Sire, the votes stand as follows:

Astronaut: 2 (Puzzle, Mr. Flay)
No Lynch: 2 (EmpTyger, rajrhcpfreak)
EmpTyger: 1 (Thok)
Puzzle: 1 (dybeck)
dybeck: 1 (VisMaior)
Mr. Flay: 1 (HezLucky)

10 to lynch.

[VisMaior]

I suggest everybody read newbie 128.

ugh, could you make a quick recap as to what to watch for? I am unwilling (read: lazy) to read trough and come to conclusions on my own.

What about barbarians developing stuff (they almost certainly will have a faster tech tree than us, or get better units than us at each stage).
...
I'm assuming that he's spent more time polishing up this game.

I think barbarians might have "investigation protection" instead of doc protection on their units. Also, Vigkill might be overkill in a barbarians hand, so that one is most probably replaced with some other power, too.

I must say, I have not played Civ 3 myself, so im a bit confused at the moment.

[d_rouge]

Checking in.
I agree that there's probably a way to break this game and we should try to find it. I'm not that sure that this includes going no lynch, however. The information we get from vote patterns may very well complement the information we get from night abilities, thus giving us a better understanding of the situation.

As for civilizations and UU, I think we cannot rule out a priori the possibility of there being Civ:PTW and/or Civ:Conquests in this game.

random vote: Hezlucky

[inHimshallibe]

You

want

to break the game? Why can't we just have guidelines, and play the usual way?

[Iammars]

PLEASE NO!
NOT ANOTHER BREAKING THE GAME ARGUMENT!!!

[VisMaior]

Huh? Breaking the game has 2 advantages

1. the setup turns out to be breakable, so it can be fixed
2. We automatically win

Why would you NOT want it? Unless you are on the loosing side, that is...

[Iammars]

Huh? Breaking the game has 2 advantages

1. the setup turns out to be breakable, so it can be fixed
2. We automatically win

Why would you NOT want it? Unless you are on the loosing side, that is...

Nonono, you're not understanding. Check Dragon Mafia.

[VisMaior]

25 pages to check? Culd you just give me a recap?

[Iammars]

Just check the last 4. Since I took over.

[HezLucky]

Haha. I'm always in favour of breaking the game.

[rajrhcpfreak]

im not saying we should break it, but we can no lynch to give the town a better chance of investigative roles...

[Thok]

25 pages to check? Culd you just give me a recap?

A role was killed that on death revealled all of the roles in the game. People are now arguing over a mass role claim, given that info.

For newbie 128, you probably only need to read the first couple pages of day one and then his day two discussion of no-lynch-the point is that EmpTyger is basically making the same arguments now that he was making when he was scum. I think he would make the same arguments as pro-town, but I'm not sure.

[VisMaior]

Ok, I was thinking about this. So if 1 unit has 40% chance of a succesful investigation, the chance of finding scum (Assuming 4 scumpeople) is 10% per player/night. That gives us a chance of 0.1+0.09+0.081+...+0.015 approximately 30% chance of finding scum per night (Less with less scum). Thats slightly better than random (what would be 0.25%), but Im not very satisfied with it. I think it would be better of a plan if the nations with the most probably good investigative UUs would go forward in the tech tree to get those units, and only the rest would investigate/protect. Since we do not know who has wich civ, we could agree on the civs who get to advance and we would not disclose who it really is. Any toughts?

[armlx]

I think breaking games is fine. I've broken 2 games so far and been on the mafia once when a game was broken. I agree with the plan.

Also, the chance increases every night as players build more units.

Also worry about the mafia blocking everyone.

[swinkee]

Just throwing a couple of ideas out there: Is it possible that the mafia don't have units? Is it possible that the mafia are assigned units each night? Because I've played Civ 1 and III, and in neither did the barbarians ever build units, and only rarely were even able to capture cities.

[rolandofthewhite]

I'm against game-breaking. I'd rather play the game and have fun and lose than ruin the game but win automatically.

And

Random Vote: inHim

, because Bob Ross terrifies me.

[Mr. Flay]

Swinkee: In Civ II I know that Barbarians could capture cities, and would only be able to make one unit. So it stands to reason that that may be how they advance up the tech tree/get units...

I'm okay with the No Lynch plan, but I'm not sure we need to run the day to and end just yet. There's a lot that can be learned from the day game without totally relying on a breaking strategy...

[Mr. Flay]

Errr, one TYPE of unit; so we may see Barbarian Samurai soon (or something). Can someone state what the Japanese UU does/did?

[Astronaut]

If it breaks, I say we break it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

break break break break!

[Thok]

unvote EmpTyger

since nobody seems to want to support me, but IGMEOY EmpTyger.

(IGMEOY=I've got my eye on you, for future reference).

vote no lynch

for the time being.

[EmpTyger]

Metagame question: Why does this game have *20* players?

The basic game of Civ3 had 16 civilizations. But I am concerned that assuming 16 civilizations = 16 townspeople with 4 barbarian antitowns is a mistake. For one thing, a 4:1 ratio seems too high for the town. For another, massclaims Day 1 or ever pretty much automatically breaks the game *too* easily to be plausible. If the setup were 16 civilizations + n barbarians, I would have thought that the game would have had more players to allow a larger barbarian horde, setting aside the problem of massclaims. But I can’t see only 4 antitowns as plausible, at least not without them having safer claims. And if there are more than 4 antitowns, there must be less than 16 protowns.

I don’t think massclaiming is a good idea right now, but this should probably be rediscussed whatever day we decide to begin lynching, when there will have been more information obtained.


d_rouge:

Checking in.
I agree that there's probably a way to break this game and we should try to find it. I'm not that sure that this includes going no lynch, however. The information we get from vote patterns may very well complement the information we get from night abilities, thus giving us a better understanding of the situation.<snip>

Theoretically, no-lynching prolongs the game, which allows maximal development. This helps the town most, having the numerical advantage and thus the most potential at nighttime. Lynching, besides shortening the game, moreover works against maintaining the numerical advantage.
[That probably is the reasoning why no-lynching is traditionally bad for the town: the town is generally weakest at nighttime.]

With no-lynching being optimal, voting (and discussion of suspicions) becomes counterproductive. It gives the mafia more information about making their decisions. The only circumstance I can think of which would be worth announcing before the end of the no-lynching would be if an investigation revealing someone to be guilty, lest that information be lost before a lynching day. Vote patterns are meaningless because the votes are meaningless, because there won’t be a lynch. And the town will have a chance to obtain vote patterns whatever day we decide to lynch (or earlier- whatever day we consider ending the no-lynching).


VisMaior:

I think it would be better of a plan if the nations with the most probably good investigative UUs would go forward in the tech tree to get those units, and only the rest would investigate/protect. Since we do not know who has wich civ, we could agree on the civs who get to advance and we would not disclose who it really is. Any toughts?

We probably need to do something like your plan may or may not work, but I’m a little nervous about presuming the 16:4 setup. (For one thing, if we are assuming that setup, we should be massclaiming right now.) On the other hand, I don’t really have anything better off the top of my head. Let me think about it a little more.


inHim:
Forgive me, but if you prefer playing “normally” then why not play unthemed games?

[Thok]

The basic game of Civ3 had 16 civilizations. But I am concerned that assuming 16 civilizations = 16 townspeople with 4 barbarian antitowns is a mistake. For one thing, a 4:1 ratio seems too high for the town. For another, massclaims Day 1 or ever pretty much automatically breaks the game *too* easily to be plausible. If the setup were 16 civilizations + n barbarians, I would have thought that the game would have had more players to allow a larger barbarian horde, setting aside the problem of massclaims. But I can’t see only 4 antitowns as plausible, at least not without them having safer claims. And if there are more than 4 antitowns, there must be less than 16 protowns.

I will repeat, there are expansion packs: Play the World and Conquests. That gives more then enough roles for this game. Moreover, I've mentioned that fact in the thread once already; there's no reason to bring it up again. I'm seriously tempted to vote you again for essentially fishing to see if expansion roles are in the game.

EmpTyger, we do learn something from random votes because we see who tries to follow the bandwagons, and what bandwagons don't take off. Go read Hospital mafia in normal. Because nearly everybody in that game is a doctor, a no-lynch strategy is useful. However, most of the scum in that game were caught because of discussion arising from random voting.

[Puzzle]

I am actually not sure I want to go No Lynch at all, which is why I shared Thok's doubts. However, I didn't want to vote in order to be able to gauge others' reactions better.
Now, I must say that bringing the topic of the mass claim helps Emptyger's case fairly well and Thok's a bit blind opposition is beginning to look weird.

I think we could have an alternative to a direct mass claim by simply claiming "main game" or "extension", which gives about nothing to scums and allows us to get a better overview of the setup. (I just need to check in which one I am, although I'm pretty confident).

And thanks Swinkee for wasting my cunning mouse trap.