Mini 1439 -- Game Over

[don_johnson]

DJ in a nutshell:

Defends RC.
Argues about why we should not lynch

SK

(SCUM > SK).

Hammers RC whom he thinks is SK.
Unless he's telling me he hammered someone he thinks is vig

Was going to give him a chance to explain.. but now im sure. Lynching RC is not the problem. The problem is changing your stance with no real explaination.

except for my explanation here:

most likely scenario based on the evidence at hand(taking into account claims, nk's and gameplay):

ztife/SAS vs RCbpsk vs vanilla town.

here:

i also love how ztife keeps saying "we could have a doc" when its totally fucking obvious that noone here is a doctor. and yet, all of the scenarios that i have thrown out are "crazy". he is not acting like his own lynch would end in a town loss. he is just trying to argue to keep himself alive. my bet is he is SAS partner and is honestly unsure of whether or not we are in multi-ball which is why he is pushing the idea so forcefully.

and here:

ok. that selfie looks like a last ditch effort by a desperate sk. i'll bite on the 2p scum vs sk vs all vanilla town.

its a pretty clear thought process. I wasn't getting what I considered the optimal lynch, so I compromised based on the evidence. I pitched RC a couple important questions which he skirted and then he self voted. I got tired of trying to convince everyone of the 3pscum team possibility. its not rocket science.

i think 2p scum/sk/vanillatown is more likely than multi-ball.

i think 3pscum/townwithvig is more likely than multi-ball.

based on those two scenarios, there is no need to lynch RC today. he can be dealt with tomorrow. only player who really needs him lynched today would be a scum player. so whatevz.

I was at practically at L-1 too anyway, but he knew he couldn't push my lynch.

exactly what I have been saying. no one was listening to me. for some reason, people were scared of an sk/vig. bump made a couple of good points to which I simply disagreed. otherwise, I very consistently spoke against the RC lynch. I came around to it after much discussion. its not like I was just like "herp derp, hammer." your case is entirely inconsistent with what you were saying yesterday. my case on you is still the same. you pushed the lynch towards the sk/vig spouting contradictory statistics and claiming that it was somehow in towns best interest, when, in fact, there was only ONE SINGLE scenario where it was the optimal lynch(that being multi-ball). in the 3p/sk/town scenario it would be a death knell, and in the MOST LIKELY scenario 2p/sk/town it was a gamble. in no way a priority. best case is that it didn't matter which anti-town was lynched. so me hammering what we all seemed to agree was a guy who was flipping sk in a 2pscum set-up is not contradictory to anything I preached other than me wanting us to be cautious and lynch the scum first. the scum being the guy who was doing everything in his power to convince us the WE HAD TO LYNCH THE SK pushing his arguments based on the LEAST LIKELY SCENARIO.

this is exhausting.

p-edit:

Me pushing RC lynch is scummy, you hammering issin't. Hmm, not sure if I get the logic here unless you are scum.

or if you are scum. which makes more sense because it made much more sense yesterday for scum to be pushing his lynch. and that I only hammered after a full day of discussion in which I did everything in my power to convince everyone to lynch you. but let's not talk about that part...

or the part where I explained to bump why I disagreed with his theories. lets not talk about that either. lets cherry pick quotes and hang on to the only hope scumztife has of pinning the responsibility of the viglynch onto the one fucking guy who fought it all day long based on the evidence.

again, what I take away from post 986 is this:

Precisely, multi-ball with a doc(fire and ice setup) and sk + 2 scum + 10 VTs are more possible setups since they are balanced,

and in these cases lynching RC is priority to winning

.

bolded is the part that is complete bullshit and proof that you are scum. in the 2pscum/sk scenario it is irrelevant who is lynched. sk is NOT PRIORITY to winning. except of course, for you. the remaining scum. also, multi-ball is the least likely set-up of any we discussed based on the COMPLETE LACK OF TWO NIGHTKILLS ON 2/3 of the nights. now you are starting to annoy me.

[Ztife]

1. In regards to multi-ball and town pr, explained in 950. Why would town PR claim?

2. As for RC as priority lynch in 2scum +SK, its been explained in the exact same post. We don't know if SK has another shot, and we don't know who scum is but we know who the SK is 100%. We might not get scum. But we WILL hit SK for sure. We potentially eliminate 2NK a night.

Not really sure how to answer your questions since they have already been answered and you have ignored them conveniently and keep drawing circles Bump will eventually realize this when he catches up the post, you really need to try and cover up your tracks if you wanna use these arguments against me. I stand by that my read on D4 on RC is SK and he would have been made a priority lynch eitherway. That's all. If you flip town then both you and RC just played really badly and we deserve to lose.

[Ztife]

Mod, messed up the above post quotes can you delete it for me? Thanks

Done

[Ztife]

There's no unknown. W're discussing all the possibilities so we are covering everything. Over here it makes no difference, and we're more sure of who SK is anyway.

there is an unknown. HOW MANY SCUM ARE LEFT. RC MAY BE VIG considering we have no town power. scum team is either 2 or 3p. no guarantee of 2p. which makes scum lynch> sk lynch. how can you not see that?

Are you for real? If this setup is true SK is not going to NK scum N4, because 3 flipped scum means D5 SK is the one who gets lynched.

huh? this makes no sense. there is only one flipped scum. you do realize that if the above happens, then town wins, right? isn't that what we are trying to do? you also realize that in the above case, if we lynch the sk today, town loses, right? this reasoning makes zero sense.

if scumteam is 3p and we lynch RC as sk, then WE LOSE. So lynching him is not an option at this time.

It is in the best interest of both faction not to cross kill should they want to win. Not to mention the possibility of this setup being so inbalanced is probably not happening and also whether the SK has BP.

and?

i'd rather take my chances at night than LOSE BY LYNCHING THE SK NOW

.

i'm not wall posting with you anymore ztife. i can't imagine a scenario where you are town and arguing this insanely against common sense and hard evidence.

i think 2p scum/sk/vanillatown is more likely than multi-ball.

i think 3pscum/townwithvig is more likely than multi-ball.

based on those two scenarios, there is no need to lynch RC today.

he can be dealt with tomorrow. only player who really needs him lynched today would be a scum player. so whatevz.

Clearly, you don't want to lynch SK even though we both agree that it could be 2scum + sk. This is not the only posts, there's more, im just too lazy to find atm.

ok. that selfie looks like a last ditch effort by a desperate sk. i'll bite on the 2p scum vs sk vs all vanilla town.

Clearly, your opinion changed when RC was an easy hammer target. Because... he self voted? Would appreciate if you could enlighten me more about your "discussion" with bump that made you "change your mind".

You repeatedly said to lynch me > RC.
You hammered RC when we still have a couple of days, when I was at L-1 anyway.
What happen to be chance of 3scum + sk?

Fact is, you are afraid of an NL and you want RC lynched as well. RC was scummy all game, if you were really afraid that there is a chance town would lose because "scum ztife and his buddy" needs RC lynched to win and therefore they are pushing it so hard, then you WILL NOT lynch RC no matter what. Hammering RC, then continuous calling me scum for pushing an RC lynch (look at the plain irony there) is just pathetic.

[don_johnson]

You repeatedly said to lynch me > RC.

yes.

You hammered RC when we still have a couple of days, when I was at L-1 anyway.
What happen to be chance of 3scum + sk?

we covered this. several times. I have even gone back and quoted myself where I agreed as 2pscum/sk as the most likely scenario.

Fact is, you are afraid of an NL and you want RC lynched as well.

yes, which is why I spent the whole day defending RC and gave him every benefit of the doubt before I hammered him. you were also nowhere near L-1 at this time. the votes had all shed from you.

RC was scummy all game, if you were really afraid that there is a chance town would lose because "scum ztife and his buddy" needs RC lynched to win and therefore they are pushing it so hard, then you WILL NOT lynch RC no matter what.

yup. that's what I said. but I eventually came to the conclusion that your "buddy" was SAS. who was already dead. which left you as the lone scum, overly paranoid about the possibility that you had been outscummed by an RC/dj scumteam or might possibly get beaten by an sk. we covered this too. several times now. my hesitancy on the RC lynch was that you might possibly be buddied with a third player. no one else thought that to be a possibility. I also argued for the idea that RC might just be a vig based on the claims and the body count. but no one bought that either. so whatevz.

Hammering RC, then continuous calling me scum for pushing an RC lynch (look at the plain irony there) is just pathetic.

no. it actually makes perfect sense when you read the game and see how the discussion came about.

[don_johnson]

this:

"yes, which is why I spent the whole day defending RC and gave him every benefit of the doubt before I hammered him."

was meant to have a sarcasm tag for those of you who couldn't infer it.

[Ztife]

@dj
yup. that's what I said. but I eventually came to the conclusion that your "buddy" was SAS. who was already dead. which left you as the lone scum, overly paranoid about the possibility that you had been outscummed by an RC/dj scumteam or might possibly get beaten by an sk. we covered this too. several times now. my hesitancy on the RC lynch was that you might possibly be buddied with a third player. no one else thought that to be a possibility. I also argued for the idea that RC might just be a vig based on the claims and the body count. but no one bought that either. so whatevz.

1. So are you implying that you lynched RC because you think he is a vig? Not sure what you are trying to tell us here.
2. How did you "eventually come to the conclusion" that im scum? Please elaborate.
If im scum and I want RC lynched, shouldn't you NOT be doing that?
How was I wrong about the possibility of a multi-ball setup? Again, you have avoided my questions.
3. What happen to your "hesitancy" because of my possible 3rd scum buddy then?

So first you said that it was the self vote from RC that make you decide to hammer him, now you claim that its because you "knew" it was 2scum/sk because I stated about multi-ball, which I have actually done right from the start from D4 and when you have repeatedly stated that you will not lynch RC.

What was the real reason for your hammer of RC again? Its been about 4 replies now and we're getting a different answer each time.

[don_johnson]

pen and bump: I will answer ztife's questions AGAIN if you need me to. otherwise I am done.

[penguin_alien]

If MrBump is scum we're screwed, so I'll go with the theory that it's DJ or Ztife. In that case we could be at MyLo absent a traitor, but since there is the possibility of a traitor gumming up the works, I think we're better off taking a stab at choosing correctly at MyLo rather than dragging things out another night phase.

I don't think I have any questions for Ztife or DJ. MrBump, what changed for you between #972 and #988 in terms of DJ vs. Ztife?

[MrBump]

Ztife has some pretty key mistakes earlier in the game that I pointed out at the time and his arguments today are really silly. DJ's explained thousands of times what happened and Ztife just keeps arguing for the sake of arguing. In addition, it feels like Ztife concluded there was no way that two scum vs 11 Town was balanced so pushed a lynch on RC/DJ as he was sure one of them was anti-town.

[Ztife]

Ztife has some pretty key mistakes earlier in the game that I pointed out at the time and his arguments today are really silly. DJ's explained thousands of times what happened and Ztife just keeps arguing for the sake of arguing. In addition, it feels like Ztife concluded there was no way that two scum vs 11 Town was balanced so pushed a lynch on RC/DJ as he was sure one of them was anti-town.

Argue for the sake of arguing? Explain what you understand of DJ's explaination/hammer.

Someone who says we should not lynch RC and goes hammering, if RC flips anti-town he gets town cred, if RC flips town he goes "I told you so" and gets town cred as well? Not sure what you are making of his "explaination" really, because town don't adjust their reasoning when scum hunting. Scums do, because they are finding ways to make townies look scummy or make themselves look town. One moment its not ok to lynch RC, another moment it is.

You and I know why we wanted the RC lynch. But why would DJ want RC lynch after all that bullshit he put up? Because RC self-voted? Does RC self-voting change any of his bullshit theories earlier? It doesn't.. because lynching the "SK" at this point would help DJ look more town.


Also, I never conclude that 2scum vs 11 town is impossible, I said that vig rc was pretty much impossible and sk should be lynched for us to know the setup. In fact I did mention that 2scum + sk was likely.

Precisely, multi-ball with a doc(fire and ice setup) and sk + 2 scum + 10 VTs are more possible setups since they are balanced, and in these cases lynching RC is priority to winning. If its multi-ball and we lynch SAS's partner it means town loss. In the other scenario if we mislynch town instead of scum it would end up in the 1-1-1 D5.

I also said RC lynch was important to tell us the setup and it is unlikely we would lose lynching him. To begin with, which vig would fucking self-vote anyway.

Also I believe my "key mistakes" earlier seems to refer to 473. Well, talk me through it, and compare to DJ's play through the days side by side with mine.

[2birds1stone]

Vote Count 5.2

penguin_alien (0)
MrBump (0)
don_johnson (1) -- Ztife
Ztife (1) -- don_johnson

Not voting -- penguin_alien, MrBump

With four alive, it takes three to lynch

Day Two ends in (expired on 2013-06-21 10:23:00)

[don_johnson]

*bump*

I know we have nine days, and I don't want to stop you from using them all, but the thread seems a little dead. i'm happy to field questions if necessary.

[Ztife]

Well, the days are ticking.

Bit of an anti-climax, really. Not sure if either of them are trying to wait for the other and hop for the hammer.

[2birds1stone]

Prodding penguin_alien

[penguin_alien]

Prod received. Sorry about that, and more generally for dragging out the game.

Another look through the ISOs with Secret Agent Sloth's in tandem and remembering that chillkid was in don_johnson's slot makes me think Ztife's our best bet at killing scum today. There was actually more natural interaction with SAS-chillkid, plus a couple places where chillkid sheeped SAS in a way that seems unlikely from a scum mindset. So, MrBump, any last thoughts before we make a decision?

(although wouldn't it be a heck of a thing if Ztife and don_johnson were a mafia-traitor combo?)

No questions for Ztife and don_johnson, really.

[MrBump]

Apologies, family issues came up.

If they are, my mind will explode, straight up.

I'm a retard and started ISO'ing DJ yesterday all like "Wow he never mentioned SAS at all hi scum" then realised he replaced in. God dammit, too many replacements in this game!

Honestly, a relatively big part of my mindset on DJ was his lack of SAS talking, so Ztife looks a lot worse now. I wouldn't say I'm happy with a Ztife lynch, but I'm more comfortable out of the two. I doubt I'll reach a point where I'm 100% certain. It's definitely more effective for you to take the lead, penguin, as my reads have been shattered all game long.

[don_johnson]

seriously guys.

[penguin_alien]

Fine. I'll continue my streak of being an excellent person for scum to bring to M/Lylo situations and VOTE: Ztife

[penguin_alien]

Question is, would Ztife NK the person screaming for his head? Or would don_johnson kill evilpacman18 to throw us off? Or would MrBump get rid of someone who knows his meta? Heck if I know any more.

[don_johnson]

if bump is scum, the game is his. same goes for you. I guess we'll see. I can tell you what I would have done as scum, but its just wifom. I certainly would not have defended RC, and I certainly would not have nk'd a guy who was townreading me and agreeing with the case on ztife. but whatevz. I am pretty convinced I have this right. bumpscum is a possibility I guess, but I just don't feel its likely.

[MrBump]

Preemptively sorry for my shitty hammer, I am utterly abysmal at MyLo.

VOTE: Ztife

If my gut was right I will flip tables

[2birds1stone]

Vote Count 5.3

penguin_alien (0)
MrBump (0)
don_johnson (1) -- Ztife
Ztife (3) -- don_johnson, penguin_alien, MrBump

Not voting -- No one

A lynch has been decided on.

Ztife,

Mafia Goon

, has been lynched.

Town Win.

[Om of the Nom]

yay finally this game is over
gg scum, totally called SAS but never did much about it #storyofmylife

[Cheery Dog]

Wait we somehow won this?

I probably did overkill the we're going to lose speech or whatever I was doing in the dead thread, but my lynch still sucked.

At least one person I called out during my twilight scumreads list was scum - and it does make sense that it was the person I hadn't connected to Feg. (also you lynched all the people on that list + red dragon after me, so I must have had some input).
don_j was the only person making any logic yesterday, sucked when he ended up hammering RC. (and yes RC's play was horrible I agree - but he was still practically confirmed town.