Open Setups

[Fiasco]

Thanks; I hadn't seen that one. It's the same mechanic in a closed setup game. I think it will work out differently in practice, though. With Items known to be independent of alignment, and with the list known to everyone, there's almost no reason to mass claim (though it also won't hurt that much, because the scum have to guess the Item receivers; I do expect the owners of the Halo, etc to claim). I don't really expect there to any lies or arguments about the "who gave what to whom" aspect of the game. False claims aren't a viable strategy. I actually had all the Item owners as common knowledge at first, but that made some of them useless.

I should probably add some less-than-sane cop Items. It's boring if cop results are always reliable and can't be counterclaimed. On the other hand, most results will be "innocent" anyway. Maybe an occasional no-brainer lynch isn't that bad.

Also, each scum group should be immune to one nightkill (the first targeting any of them).

[Fiasco]

Gadget Mafia, Mini Test Run Edition

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
8 Townies

Two randomly selected non-mafia are Masons (and know each other to be non-mafia). Two randomly selected non-werewolves are Monks (and know each other to be non-werewolves).

Win conditions as usual. Everyone dead means draw.

Each scum group is immune to the first nightkill targeting any of its members. (For example, if you nightkill Werewolf A and then nightkill Werewolf B the next night, only Werewolf B dies.)

Start with day. One lynch the first day, then two lynches (in sequence, with immediate reveal) every subsequent day. Lynching someone destroys all Gadgets currently possessed.

At night, scum groups can choose to kill someone or rob someone's house. Killing someone destroys all Gadgets received that night. Robbing someone's house does the same thing, but the target stays alive. Robbing someone's house ignores any protective abilities.

At the start of the game, the following 24 Gadgets are randomly, independently assigned to players:

* Cop Badge (grants investigation next night; mafia and two random townies turn up guilty)
* Crystal Ball (grants investigation next night; werewolves and two random townies turn up guilty)
* First Aid Kit (grants protect against mafia kill next night)
* Magic Wand (grants protect against werewolf kill next night)
* Bulletproof Vest (grants self-protect against mafia kill next night)
* Wolfsbane (grants self-protect against werewolf kill next night)
* Pistol (grants vig shot next night; mafia and four random townies are vulnerable)
* Silver Dagger (grants vig shot next night; werewolves and four random townies are vulnerable)
* Key (grants roleblock attempt effective against mafia kill/robbing next night)
* Rope (grants roleblock attempt effective against werewolf kill/robbing next night)
* Cell Phone (owner can talk to other Cell Phone owner next night)
* Cell Phone (ditto)
* Carrot (owner can eat it during the day (taking it out of the game) and gain an investigation the next night due to better night vision; mafia, werewolves and two random townies turn up guilty)
* Broccoli (owner can eat it during the day (taking it out of the game) and gain immunity to all kills the next night because of the antioxidants, or something)
* Mushroom (owner can eat it during the day (taking it out of the game) and gain a "one-up" (single kill immunity, permanent until used))
* Normal Bomb (has a counter that starts at 2; current counter state unknown to owner; owner can decrease counter by 1 if desired; when counter reaches 0, it blows up, killing the present owner; indistinguishable from Time Bomb and Potato)
* Time Bomb (has a counter that starts at 2; current counter state unknown to owner; owner can decrease counter by 1 if desired; when counter reaches 0, it is activated, killing the next owner; indistinguishable from Normal Bomb and Potato)
* Potato (has a counter that starts at 2; current counter state unknown to owner; owner can decrease counter by 1 if desired; when counter reaches 0, nothing happens; indistinguishable from Normal Bomb and Time Bomb)
* Transmitter (can be turned on or off during the day; when on, mafia and werewolf can send each other two anonymous messages per night through the mod, one received at the midpoint and one at the end of the night)
* Hammer (owner's votes count double)
* Magnet (must be used next night to receive all Gadgets the target would have received)
* Mirror (must be used next night to randomly reassign all Gadgets the target would normally have received)
* Copying Machine (must be used to duplicate any one other Gadget currently in possession, if any)
* Trash Can (must be used to destroy any one other Gadget currently in possession, if any)

(You can copy the trash can or trash the copying machine, but you cannot trash the trash can or copy the copying machine. I'm not quite sure these aren't broken.)

Gadget rules: all Gadgets must be transferred to another player each night, after being used. No choice sent in means another player is chosen at random. Each player will get a list of Gadgets received at the start of each day. Gadgets owned by a lynched player or received by a nightkilled or robbed player disappear from the game. Everyone is informed of Gadgets that disappeared through lynches. Only the nightkilling/robbing scum group is informed of Gadgets that disappear through nightkilling/robbing. Only the owner of the Copying Machine/Trash Can is informed of Gadgets appearing or disappearing in that way. Likewise for the Carrot, Broccoli, and Mushroom.

Balanced? Fun?

[mith]

I think if you stopped with this:

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
8 Townies

Two randomly selected non-mafia are Masons (and know each other to be non-mafia). Two randomly selected non-werewolves are Monks (and know each other to be non-werewolves).

Win conditions as usual. Everyone dead means draw.

Each scum group is immune to the first nightkill targeting any of its members. (For example, if you nightkill Werewolf A and then nightkill Werewolf B the next night, only Werewolf B dies.)

It would be an interesting game on its own.

(No time to read through all the gadgets at the moment. If I remember I'll take a look in a couple days.)

[Thok]

I thinking about running a 1001 game when my turn on the mini regular list hits

2 scum, 4 townies and either a doc or a cop.

I'm trying to decide about whether I should utilize any of the following tweaks

a. Instead of choosing between a doc or a cop, have a single cop/doc who can do either power but can only do one thing a night. (Essentially the same, but affects counterclaim strategy).

b. Requiring scum to kill each night. (Helps town a little, as it confirms a doctor if there isn't a nightkill).

Both tweaks would be part of the open setup.

Any general thoughts?

[Fiasco]

A doc-only setup would still strongly favor the scum, I think. I think a cop/doc would almost never choose to use the doc ability, though that's not necessarily bad. (Alternative thought: what about giving the town both a doc and a cop, but making the cop undocprotectable?) (Other alternative thought: I'd also like to see the Pie C9 setup tried out once, meaning the town has a guaranteed cop and doc but the mafia has a roleblocker.)

[Fiasco]

Gadget Mafia, Insane Bookkeeping Nightmare Edition

3

Mafia

(kills N1, N2, N5, N6, etc)
3

Werewolves

(kills N1, N3, N5, N7, etc)
3

Aliens

(kills N1, N4, N5, N8, etc)
3

Demons

(kills N2, N3, N6, N7, etc)
3

Orcs

(kills N2, N4, N6, N8, etc)
3

Robots

(kills N3, N4, N7, N8, etc)

18

Townies

There are six "1/6 mason" groups that know each other not to be in one of the scum groups. Each such group has 3 members chosen randomly from among the remaining 33 players.

Not Mafia -- Masons
Not Werewolves -- Monks
Not Aliens -- Illuminati
Not Demons -- Priests
Not Orcs -- Knights
Not Robots -- Conspirators

There are two "1/2 mason" groups that know each other not to be in three of the scum groups. Both these groups have 2 members chosen randomly from among the remaining 27 players.

Not Mafia, Aliens, or Robots -- "The Clean"
Not Werewolves, Demons, or Orcs -- "The Pure"

None of these partial masons can talk to each other unless they have the right Gadgets.

Gadgets work as in the Mini edition.

* 6 partial cop items (again mostly sane)
* 6 partial doc items
* 6 partial bulletproof items
* 6 partial vig items
* 6 partial blocker items
* 6 partial "confirmed innocent" items
* 3 cell phones (owners can talk as if they were masons)
* 3 pieces of paper (owner can write anything on it and read previous messages written on it)
* normal bomb, time bomb, potato
* carrot, broccoli, mushroom, spinach (spinach grants one-shot universal vig attempt)
* hammer (grants double vote), shovel (require 1 extra vote to be lynched because of digging in), silencer (owner cannot vote), disruptor (owner can negative-vote instead of vote)
* three indistinguishable remote controls
* TNT (kills owner when remote control used), intercom (allows owner to send anonymous messages when remote control used), recycling device (owner gains random "dead" item when remote control used)
* trash can, copying machine, disintegrator (kills one of your target's items)
* magnet, mirror
* jammer (owner cannot use items)
* 6 transmitters; each allows one of the scum groups to send anonymous messages when turned on
* possibly more

[Kelly Chen]

Honestly, I wouldn't have much interest in talking to my mason partner if I had so little reason to trust that he wasn't scum of some sort... Let alone in trying to get a gadget to enable me to do so.

[Fiasco]

I suppose so... but I could see it being of some use, and there's no reason all gadgets need to be very useful (there are a lot).

[Glork]

Honestly, I wouldn't have much interest in talking to my mason partner if I had so little reason to trust that he wasn't scum of some sort... Let alone in trying to get a gadget to enable me to do so.

Talking to a mason -- even if they turn up scum later on -- can still give incredibly valuable information. I have a feeling that I know how a scum-mason might treat conversations (especially ones involving their scumbuddies) in such a game. Keep in mind that if I'm an Orc and I'm your mason, I'll still be looking for scum and trying to point them out to you.

[TBuG]

What would the win conditions be?

Plus, if you're scum, then you're also trying to gradually deflect suspicion from your scum group.

So far, it sounds really fun

[Fiasco]

Win conditions would be play on until everyone except for one team is dead, then that team wins. I don't think there's any way for the game to get stuck with more than one team alive. That leaves the case where everyone ends up dead. Not sure what rule I'd use there -- maybe just a draw between the teams that survived the longest.

This might have been confusing:

None of these partial masons can talk to each other unless they have the right Gadgets.

I agree that 1/6-masons don't really have more reason to fish for the cell phones than ordinary townies. Masonhood doesn't affect any game mechanics other than partial knowledge of innocence.

BTW: I'm considering just giving each group a 50% chance of getting to kill each night, rather than having a fixed pattern. It increases the role of luck somewhat, but otherwise all the protection items are known useless half the time.

[Fiasco]

C9++

First, get 8 random results from the following distribution:


50% townie
15% cop
10% doc
10% vig
10% mason
5% blocker

Then you end up with "cop" N times, "doc" M times, and so on. Instead of giving the town N cops and M docs, consult a table like the following:

C = insane cop + paranoid cop (not really happy with this)
CC = sane cop + naive cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + insane cop + naive cop + paranoid cop + backup cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + naive cop + backup cop
...

D = weak doctor (ineffective when protecting pro-town power roles)
DD = weak doctor + full doctor
DDD = weak doctor + full doctor + backup doctor
DDDD = full doctor + full doctor + backup doctor
...

V = one-shot vig
VV = one-shot vig + one-shot day vig
VVV = full vig + one-shot day vig
VVVV = full vig + one-shot vig + one-shot day vig
...

M = mod-confirmed innocent
MM = mason pair
MMM = two mod-confirmed innocents
MMMM = mason trio
...

B = blocker
BB = blocker + blocker
BBB = strong blocker (ineffective when blocking pro-town power roles) + backup blocker
BBBB = strong blocker + blocker + backup blocker
...

The rest are townies.

All backups take on the sanity/effectiveness of the first role of their type that dies. If more than one dies at the same time, they get to choose.

The nature of the scum (and possibly SK) then depends on the number of "townie" results above according to another table. The more "townie" results, the weaker the scum.

For example:
TTTTTTTT: 2 mafia goons who can't kill N1
TTTTTTT: 2 mafia goons
TTTTTT: 3 mafia goons
TTTTT: 1 mafia godfather, 2 mafia goons
TTTT: 3 mafia goons, 1 SK (with single kill immunity)
TTT: 1 mafia godfather, 2 mafia goons, 1 SK (with cop immunity and single nightkill immunity)
TT: 1 mafia godfather, 1 mafia roleblocker, 1 mafia goon, 1 SK (with cop immunity and full nightkill immunity)
T: 1 mafia godfather, 1 mafia roleblocker, 1 mafia goon with extra kill, 1 SK (with cop immunity and full nightkill immunity)
0: 1 mafia godfather, 1 mafia roleblocker, 2 mafia goons

All kills are indistinguishable. All mafia, including roleblockers and godfathers, show up as just "mafia" on death.

The idea is to make each increment in the roles about equally useful to the town. This is pretty tricky, because you also want to avoid people getting too much information from the table ("if I'm the backup cop, the other cop must be sane"). Randomizing between multiple equally powerful possibilities for each entry would help here, but would also complicate the setup further.

This is just a first attempt, and there are probably still a lot of bad balance decisions.

Some more random comments:
* This was designed for 12-player games, but it should be easy to extend to any number.
* On average there should be 4 non-townie results from the randomization, which means something like 3-4 power roles, mostly weaker than average.
* If each increment on the roles table really is equally useful, and if the scum table matches the town with scum of the right strength, in theory it should be OK to let either the scum or a pro-town team captain choose rather than randomizing. But that's a big "if".
* Some randomly generated setups using this method (it's fairly quick):

2 townies
2 masons
1 confirmed innocent
1 one-shot vig
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (cop-immune, single kill immune)

3 townies
1 confirmed innocent
1 weak doctor
1 full vig
1 one-shot vig
1 one-shot day vig
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (cop-immune, kill-immune)
(this one was rather extreme in the vig department)

2 masons
1 one-shot vig
1 one-shot day vig
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doctor
1 full doctor
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon with extra kill
1 SK (cop-immune, kill-immune)
(this one was rather extreme in the power roles department; the others were also above average)

6 townies
1 weak doctor
1 one-shot vig
3 mafia goons

3 townies
1 weak doctor
2 sane cops
1 naive cop
1 backup cop
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (cop-immune, nightkill immune)

6 townies
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 one-shot vig
3 mafia goons

3 townies
2 masons
1 one-shot vig
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
3 mafia goons
1 SK (single nightkill immune)

9 townies
1 confirmed innocent
2 mafia goons

5 townies
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doctor
1 full doctor
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

6 townies
1 weak doctor
1 full doctor
1 confirmed innocent
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

5 townies
1 insane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doctor
1 confirmed innocent
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

2 townies
2 full doctors
1 backup doctor
1 one-shot vig
1 confirmed innocent
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon with extra kill
1 SK (cop-immune, nightkill-immune)

4 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 blocker
1 one-shot vig
3 mafia goons
1 SK (single nightkill immune)

And so on. I'm not sure I'm letting scum strength vary enough with town strength, but most of these seem reasonably balanced.

[Kelly Chen]

This is pretty interesting... And where it's unbalanced, it seems like it can be fixed.

One thing I notice, is that I'm not sure two mod-confirmed townies is better than a mason pair. Claimed masons are usually believed, especially if one has already died. So mod confirmation probably just makes the masons more likely to be killed.

For a single "M" I'd say make somebody a mason with no partner. I had this in Choose Your Role. It's still a useful claim if made early enough.

[Fiasco]

Good point. Another advantage is not having to have an extra role. So how about:

M = single mason
MM = mason pair
MMM = mason pair + single mason
MMMM = mason trio
MMMMM = two mason pairs
?

I'm least happy about the cops table. One "C" is the most common case (though not by a lot), so if insane cops are that common, people may just treat guilty results as innocent results and vice versa. On the other hand I don't want to have another cop role, like one-shot cop or tracker.

Improved doc table:

D = weak doc + backup doc
DD = weak doc + doc
DDD = weak doc + doc + backup doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc

Improved vig table:

V = one-shot vig
VV = vig
VVV = one-shot vig + vig
VVVV = vig + vig

Improved cop table:

C = sane cop + paranoid cop + 2 millers
CC = sane cop + naive cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + naive cop + backup cop
CCCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + insane cop + backup cop

This turns the list of possible roles into:

Townie
Cop (Sane, Insane, Naive, Paranoid)
Backup Cop
Doctor (Weak, Normal)
Backup Doctor
Blocker (Normal, Strong)
Backup Blocker
One-Shot Vig
Vig
Mason (with 0-2 partners)
Mafia Godfather
Mafia Blocker
Mafia Goon
Mafia Gunman
Serial Killer

a few more random setups:

TTTTTDDM
6 townies
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 mason
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

TTTCCVVB
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 vig
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (CI, 1NKI)

TTTTTTVM
7 townies
1 one-shot vig
1 mason
3 mafia goons

TTCCDDVV
3 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 vig
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (CI, NKI)

TTTTCCVM
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 one-shot vig
1 mason
3 mafia goons
1 SK (1NKI)

TTTTDVMM
3 townies
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 one-shot vig
2 masons
3 mafia goons
1 SK (1NKI)

TTTCCCCB
5 townies
2 sane cops
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (CI, 1NKI)

[Fiasco]

I've changed my mind:

What would the win conditions be?

There would be an extra Gadget called the "World Cup" that can't be destroyed (it's randomly reassigned instead). Whoever has the World Cup last wins the game. Usually that means the team that survives longest, which was already the win condition. If all remaining players die at the same time, the team that had the Cup wins. Mostly it amounts to randomizing among the teams that survived longest, but there's also some tactics involved.

This would also make the number of Gadgets exactly twice the number of players, as it is in the mini edition. But that's not really important.

[Fiasco]

C9++, Next Attempt

(and I'm beginning to like it)

Letters Table (roll 8 times):
50% T
15% C
10% D
10% V
10% M
5% B

Roles Table:

C = sane cop + paranoid cop + 2 millers
CC = sane cop + naive cop
CCC = sane cop + insane cop
CCCC = sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + naive cop + backup cop
CCCCCC = sane cop + sane cop + insane cop + backup cop
(probabilities 38%, 24%, 8%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

D = weak doc + backup doc
DD = weak doc + doc
DDD = weak doc + doc + backup doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc
DDDDD = doc + doc + backup doc + backup doc
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

V = one-shot vig
VV = vig
VVV = vig + one-shot vig
VVVV = vig + vig
VVVVV = vig + vig + one-shot vig
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

M = 1 mason
MM = 2 masons
MMM = 2 masons + 1 mason
MMMM = 3 masons
MMMMM = 2 masons + 2 masons
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

B = blocker
BB = blocker + blocker
BBB = strong blocker + strong blocker
BBBB = strong blocker + blocker + blocker + backup blocker
(probabilities 28%, 5%, .5%, .04%)

(these probabilities are not independent of one another, obv)

(remaining cases combined are rarer than 1 in 10000, I think, so why bother)

Scum Table:
TTTTTTTT = mafia goon (no kill N1) + mafia goon (no kill N1) + serial killer
TTTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTTTT = mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI)
TTTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather
TTTT = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI, 1NKI)
TTT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather
TT = mafia goon + mafia blocker + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI, CI, 1NKI)
T = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather
0 = mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia goon + mafia godfather + serial killer (BI, CI, NKI)

BI = blocker immune
CI = cop immune (result as if townie)
1NKI = single nightkill-immune (survives first nightkill)
NKI = nightkill-immune (survives all nightkills)

Probabilities are .4%, 3%, 11%, 22%, 27%, 22%, 11%, 3%, .4%, respectively. Probability of having a serial killer is about 50%. The serial killer will be told his abilities and therefore knows the number of Ts. The mafia will be told its abilities and therefore knows the approximate number of Ts, but does not know whether there's a serial killer (except in the TTTTTTTT case). The serial killer also wins in case everyone dies (if alive until the last night). (It's thematic, and serial killers need all the breaks they can get.) Cop sanity, mafia or SK abilities, doc and blocker power, millerhood are all not revealed on death.

Some random setups:

TCCVVVVV (not typical, I swear)
3 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
2 vigs
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
3 mafia goons

TTTTCDDV
1 townie
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (BI, 1NKI)

TTTTCDMB
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (BI, 1NKI)

TTTTCCDV
3 townies
1 sane cop
1 naive cop
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (BI, 1NKI)

TTTTTDDV
6 townies
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

TTTCCCDM
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 insane cop
1 weak doc
1 backup doc
1 mason
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTTTMM
7 townies
2 masons
1 mafia goon
1 mafia godfather
1 serial killer (BI)

TTTCDVVB
1 townie
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 paranoid cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 vig
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTCCCDB
4 townies
1 sane cop
1 insane cop
1 weak doc
1 doc
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

[mith]

A tad worried that as a semi-open it would be open to some claiming strategy on the part of the town (though how that would work isn't immediately obvious), but otherwise I'm definitely liking this. I'll have to look into it more closely when I have more time.

I'm starting to think 2 Mafia, 1 Cop, 4 Townies would be a better standard for Newbie Games; this was suggested somewhere else (don't have time to go searching for it right now), but what I'm wondering is: Is this setup more balanced with a Cop headstart, or without?

Might be an interesting problem to try to map the thing out completely (and I mean completely; this is an "easy" problem with assumptions like "Mafia don't counterclaim Cop" and "Town doesn't no-lynch", but it gets awfully tangled if you try to account for all possible strategies).

[Trojan Horse]

Two comments:

1. If C is chosen, is it possible for power roles to be the millers? And if not, how would you handle, say, the TCDDDVMB setup? Two cops, three docs, one vig, one mason, one blocker, four mafia, and no room left for the two millers. (A stretch, I know.)

2. I would prefer that there be a chance of having exactly ONE cop, and/or exactly ONE doc. As it is, it's going to be risky for the mafia to claim either role. What happens if a mafia claims cop, only to have no one else claim cop? There can't be just one cop, so that claimed cop must be mafia! Similarly for doc.

(I'd also prefer to have a 3-cop possibility somewhere on the list. But that one is less essential: if 3 claim cop, 1 must be lying, but the town doesn't know who that is.)

Overall, though, it's an excellent idea.

[Fiasco]

1. If C is chosen, is it possible for power roles to be the millers? And if not, how would you handle, say, the TCDDDVMB setup?

I was thinking of "miller" as a role in itself, which makes it effectively a townie with no other powers. I don't see any elegant solution to the "too many roles" problem you point out; I'm open to suggestions.

2. I would prefer that there be a chance of having exactly ONE cop, and/or exactly ONE doc.

In the setup as it is now, it would usually be unwise for a scum to claim cop or doc before any other cop or doc claims, but do note the possibility of a scum partner backing you up with a matching claim. This isn't ideal, I guess, so maybe you're right.

It would be easier to make this kind of change in an alternative I've been considering, which is to have multiple possibilities for some entries and randomize between them. You could list all the combinations of roles (within the same category) that you could think of, then assign a number (of letters) to each of them.

On reflection I'd like to get rid of the weak docs and strong blockers, because I'd like to restrict the roles to reasonably common/known ones. Maybe replace the weak docs with docs effective on odd/even nights only, though that's not really a normal role either. I'm also intrigued by the possibility of sometimes giving the scum (perhaps the SK?) a Walrus-like role that gets to decide whether docs are effective. (Or a similar role for blockers.)

[Fiasco]

Here's a possible fix that doesn't require multiple entries: use the following table, and rule that doc protects don't work against serial killers.

D = doc
DD = doc + backup doc
DDD = doc + doc
DDDD = doc + doc + backup doc
DDDDD = doc + doc + doc
(probabilities 38%, 15%, 3%, .5%, .04%)

Another possible fix is to replace the weak docs with clumsy docs (martyrs) who die on a successful protect.

Here's a new blocker table with the strong blockers eliminated:

B = blocker
BB = blocker + blocker
BBB = blocker + blocker + backup blocker
BBBB = blocker + blocker + blocker + backup blocker
(probabilities 28%, 5%, .5%, .04%)

(I'm counting a blocker as weaker than a doc: given that both don't work against SKs, both can prevent a kill by picking the one correct target; blockers have the added problem of possibly blocking pro-town roles.)

Still thinking about cops. The problem with single cops is I don't want insane cops to be too common, and naive and paranoid cops are worse than useless, but I don't want a single cop to be confirmed sane either.

(On the other hand, it's a perfect counterclaim opportunity, so maybe the following table is OK:
C: sane cop + 2 millers
CC: sane cop
CCC: sane cop + insane cop
CCCC: sane cop + sane cop
CCCCC: sane cop + sane cop + insane cop
CCCCCC: sane cop + sane cop + sane cop
(probabilities 38%, 24%, 8%, 2%, .3%, .02%)

This table is simpler, too.)

Some more setups with the new doc, blocker, and cop tables:

TTTTDVVV
5 townies
1 doctor
1 vig
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI, 1NKI)

TTDDDMBB
3 townies
2 doctors
1 mason
2 blockers
1 mafia GF
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon
1 SK (DI, BI, CI, 1NKI)

TTTDDDMB
5 townies
2 doctors
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTTCDB
4 townies
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TTTTTCCD
7 townies
1 sane cop
1 doctor
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TTTTTCVB
4 townies
2 millers
1 sane cop
1 one-shot vig
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TTTTTDMB
6 townies
1 doctor
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons

TCCDDDVB
3 townies
1 sane cop
2 doctors
1 one-shot vig
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
3 mafia goons

TTTCCCDV
5 townies
1 sane cop
1 insane cop
1 doctor
1 one-shot vig
1 mafia GF
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTDVMB
4 townies
1 doctor
1 one-shot vig
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia GF
2 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI, 1NKI)

New roles list, with roles on the same line indistinguishable in pm and on death (maybe this should be changed):

cop, insane cop
doc
backup doc
vig
one-shot vig
mason
blocker
backup blocker
townie, miller
mafia, mafia godfather, mafia blocker
serial killer

[Fiasco]

Since blockers can also gain information from blocking I probably underestimated them. I'm making their table the same as for the docs.

I'm also changing the first cop entry to "sane cop + 3 millers", where the millers can be power roles as well as townies (millerhood is distributed randomly among non-cop pro-town roles). Unfortunately, it's still possible (though extremely rare) for there to be 8 power roles and 5 scum.

I probably also overestimated vigs. New table:

V = vig
VV = vig + one-shot vig
VVV = vig + vig
VVVV = vig + vig + one-shot vig
VVVVV = vig + vig + vig

Three more random setups:

TTTTTCDM
4 townies
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor-miller
1 mason
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons

TTTTTTVM
6 townies
1 vig
1 mason
3 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI)

TTTTCCMB
5 townies
1 sane cop
1 mason
1 blocker
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 SK (DI, BI, 1NKI)

I'm also strongly considering changing "roll 8 times" to "roll 7 times" (while keeping the same T table), as that would eliminate both the excess roles problem and the weird TTTTTTTT special case. This change weakens the town slightly.

Some random setups with that change:

TTTCDDD
4 townies
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
1 doctor-miller
1 doctor
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

TTTTCCV
6 townies
1 sane cop
1 vig
1 mafia godfather
2 mafia goons
1 serial killer (DI, BI, 1NKI)

TTTTCCV
see above

TTTCDDM
3 townies
2 townie-millers
1 sane cop
2 doctors
1 mason-miller
1 mafia godfather
1 mafia blocker
1 mafia goon

[mith]

A mod confirmed innocent that comes up as scum to the cop?

[Fiasco]

Not mod-confirmed, just known unique and therefore hard to counterclaim. But I'm now thinking it's better for relative power levels to replace the single masons with mod-confirmed innocent children.

[Trojan Horse]

A couple of comments:

1. Anyone care to comment on play balance for those cases where there is at most 1 T? I'm worried about having a 4-scum team in a 12-player game, even with all those power roles around. Then again, your recent beefing up of the vig table lessens my worries a bit.

2. (I'm going out on a limb here...) About having "mod-confirmed innocent children": I know the comment was made that such innocent children are not all that strong, as they are a clear target for the scum. How about having an unlynchable townie instead? If that player receives the majority of votes, his role is revealed, and his votes are canceled. That would effectively be a mod-confirmed innocent, with the added ability to keep his identity concealed for a while.

[mith]

I was picturing a mod-confirmed innocent as more of a player-invoked thing: at any point, the "mason" can post something (or PM the mod), and then the mod posts the confirmation. I think this has actually been done before, though I can't remember where.

I generally dislike unlynchables, though that's probably just me.