Mastin Academy

[Majiffy]

Ah.

[reinoe]

(AKA, the "School of Mastin thought" on mafia.)

I've had a fair number of people following in my footsteps (asking "What Would Mastin Do?"), a few people call me a genius when it comes to the game, and/or asking to learn from the 'master' himself. I've even had a 'student' of mine "graduate", via surpassing me in his skill and talent. Not to mention, how I can apparently give people good advice and have always seen potential in users who often don't see their own.

I already do IC work (and sometimes IC outside of newbies ), but I wanted to expand that a bit further and become, quite literally, a professor of mafia. (When I finish my mafia textbook, this'll be a whole lot easier a "course" to take. But since I'm a lazy procrastinator, I've not yet finished it.) I realize that things like this have been done before, but I'd like to take a stab at it with a Mastin spin.

What this thread is for:

Asking me advice on how to play the game of mafia, to give feedback to the players in general, and to critique specific games for emphasis of these.

A note:

Please keep questions on the game in general, as to not be specific to an ongoing game. If you want to ask a specific question about (or even related to) that game, write it down and ask

after

the game's already over.

What to ask:

Any question relating to the game. It can be anything from "Where do you look for scum?" to "How do you find town?" to "How do you break the RVS ice?" and so on and so forth. You got a question, I'll have an answer for you. Any question so long as it's not ongoing-game-specific will get as much elaboration as I can cram into the lesson.

How I'll help:

Note that my teaching style is incredibly personalized and intimate. (Not necessarily hands-on, but almost never completely hands-off, either. ) If you're a complete stranger to me, I'm not going to track down your games to give advice. I'm instead going to try and play with you. From the start as two players, replacing into games you're in, and/or hydraing with you so that I BECOME familiar enough with you to be able to give that feedback. (Hydras give that advice more immediately, though.)

Just ask, and I'll do what I can.

Obviously, if I know you, I can already give that advice without the time delay, and will do so. If you want more detailed feedback, sure, I'll go through the process above, but only on your request. (My memory sucks for specifics, but is typically quite good for the generalities. Thus, why I won't do so by default.)

Note that I can always give more, but am kinda lazy. If you want me to go more in-depth, I'll do so. Just be aware that the more you ask of me, the longer it'll take me to give it.

Note for moderators:

You're not excluded from this! I'm more than happy to critique your setups and your modding practices. My process won't be as good as, say, zoraster's survey is, but it's better than nothing and is available at request. Just know it follows the same rules as above, and thus, will typically take some time for me to do.

A disclaimer:

If you're a better player (or moderator) than I am, chances are, I won't actually be able to help. I can give reminders, with occasional new tips, but at a certain stage, you evolve beyond my capability to help you, and

you

should be the one doing the teaching!

For instance, while it's theoretically possible for me to teach AngryPidgeon something, he already "graduated" and took my advice to heart, added his own spin, and IMPROVED it. I'm good at the game, and a great teacher--but I'm not the best. If I don't have much to say, it's a sign of your talent having bloomed with skill, and you've earned not only my respect, but also my admiration.

On Specific Games:

Note that I

will

give feedback on games that I'm not familiar with, but as with the above, my advice will be more accurate if I'm intimately familiar with the game. I'll analyze the setup and give an overview of each player, along with what you could do better in future games, and point out those general behaviors. Basically, this is a hybrid of the general theory questions I'll be answering, and the individualized coaching, tying it all together.

Grad School:

Just because you've "graduated" from my academy doesn't mean your mafia education is finished! The game evolves, the site evolves, players evolve, you evolve, and thus, the advice I give will also therefore evolve. You can ask me again to help, as many times as you'd like. It's a never-ending process of betterment. (But do note the above--I can try to help you, but if you're better than I am, it'll be much harder for me to actually do so.)

Spoiler: Subjects Lectured On

This section is for a compilation of the questions that others have asked, and my ramblings on them.

• On the RVS.
  
• On scumhunting. (With a touch of town.)
  
• On forming blocs.
  
• On appearing town.
  
• On being heard.
  
• On showing conviction.
  
• On (not) making walls.
  
• On breaking from being a VI.
  
• On working with others.
  
• On logic.
  
• On handling multiple games and gametypes.
  
• On balancing logic and charisma.
  
• On replacing into games.

Spoiler: Current Students

This section is basically a list of players I am currently actively working on helping.

• Sakura Hana
  
• notscience
  
• Bulbazak
  
• Lord Mhork
  
• phokdapolees
  
• Om
  
• Kazekirimaru
  
• SalmonellaDreams
  
• Untrod Tripod (modding+playing)
  
• Natirasha (modding+playing)
  
• Jacob Savage (modding+playing)

Spoiler: General Learning Resources

Basically, a compilation of further reading material, and why you want to read it.

• Stop Bussing, an article spawned from this thread.
  
• Interactive tells.
  
• Recognizing Reads, an article spawned from this thread. (Read the wiki version, please.)
  
• Mafia as a Social Game, an article spawned from this thread arguing the importance of charisma.
  
• Alignment Discovery, a thread created by Albert B. Rampage detailing the differences between town and scum objectives.

Hey mastin, I've read all of your articles on the mafiawiki. My favorite is the interactive tells you wrote. One thing I remember you writing is that you should have as many scumspects as there are scum or something along those lines. Now with the requisite ass kissing out of the way...

However in light of my recent Newbie1485 there was a point where I only had one scumspect. What should a player do if they have only one suspect? Or even worse, no suspects? The scum are too careful?

We all know that sometimes people have off days or someone is just a VI. When, if ever, should you not pursue the lynch of the scummiest player?

[ZZZX]

/in If I can. Will always want to get better

[ZZZX]

Real thing, let's say player X end's up bringing up one or two really good points but due to his other posts he is put in that dreaded VI category by whole town block and is easy to discredit, how does that player X convince others?

Take it from a guy who used to BE that VI.

In this case? The solution is to discard being a VI. Acknowledge that you might have been one. Say you've been a VI. But show conviction, absolute resolve, in your determination to not be one, that you CAN be a good player. I was a VI at a time, but once I admitted it, once I admitted there were fundamental flaws in my play, I started improving, because I started analyzing them and seeing them, and worked slowly but progressively on eliminating them. Or, even, turning what was a flaw in my posting into a strength.

(As one example of that, walls. As I said in my previous lecture, most people actually read them. So I've turned my verbosity that I used to despise into something productive that people can actually use. Rarely if ever do I actually use a summary, and despite that, rarely if ever am I asked for one or is there confusion on where I stand, because people actually read the wall and know!)

Often-times, a VI who knows they've got issues in their play, but shows interest, shows actual effort, in having them fixed...will evolve from a VI into a great player, given the time to succeed. It's not an overnight change! You can't one day be incompetent, and the next be a scumhunting god. But by actually recognizing you need to improve...chances are, you'll slowly be working towards that improvement and have done so.

Now that said. VIs are actually players I massively respect, because in a way, VIs have something in common with newbies--their opinions are massively outside the norm. If you couldn't tell from my mini-lecture before, that's actually a

good

thing. Because VIs think outside the norm, they're actually harder to manipulate. As scum, the thing I fear most aside from players I know and respect is VIs, because they're wildcards that cannot be accurately predicted with great success.

So my solution isn't for the VI to "think more like a normal person", as some would suggest of a VI. It's to analyze what is good and what is bad about their play, and to bring out the good and minimize the bad. One such way for a VI to become less of a VI is to work with others. Instead of being in their own world and having tinfoil conspiracy theories they randomly blurt out, the former-VI can work with others, explain their crazy theory, recognize it's crazy, but ask for feedback if it has any backing at all.

And, more often than not...it actually does! Because this is where the former-VI's value comes in. They bring up one or two really valid points, despite mostly being wrong. If the former-VI is actually working with another player, said other player is more likely to pick up on the valid points, and use them. And not only will they use those points, but they'll encourage the former-VI to flesh them out a bit. But it requires initiative from the former-VI. To talk to those other players.

Talking is a key part of this process. You need to not do it on your own. You need to do it with their assistance. Ask for them to give feedback. Tell them what your angle is. Explain it, and recognize that your viewpoint is kinda crazy. Know that you're not going to be right about everything. And work with them to figure out what you ARE right about. Another aspect of this is recognizing the scale of things. You might have this grand paranoid theory that is hugely-improbable and incredibly unrealistic, violating occam's razor. But that doesn't mean elements of your theory are wrong, in that you'll often have kernels of truth in them that when you scale the theory back to a more realistic smaller scale, can be brought out and emphasized for all to see.

It's a process much like that which turned me from the VI I used to be into the respectable player I am now. I'm still a bit of an unusual player! My thoughts are largely outside-the-box (and sometimes even controversial). But they're received a lot more positively now than they were originally, because I refined this process a lot. I can't guarantee success, but I can definitely say you'll improve, even if you don't think you have.

This actually discribes me abit.

I do not want to stop using my weird playstyle which makes some people read me as scummy. But I find myself always thinking in a unique way. I am not sure about if its a good thing or not!

Pretty helpful read

[Docthorr]

Are you still taking new students?

blabla
Sooooo, sorta kinda yes, I am.

Working on my 2nd newbie game, trying not to be a lurker this time. Going well for now.
So maybe in a month or 2,3 we can meet in another game.

Just finished this one and I really messed up which got me lynched (Town still won by a great play of our cop)
What queue is a good way to explore the game and newb friendly?

[reinoe]

Are you still taking new students?

blabla
Sooooo, sorta kinda yes, I am.

Working on my 2nd newbie game, trying not to be a lurker this time. Going well for now.
So maybe in a month or 2,3 we can meet in another game.

Just finished this one and I really messed up which got me lynched (Town still won by a great play of our cop)
What queue is a good way to explore the game and newb friendly?

I find open/normal games also newb friendly.

[mastin2]

Just thought I'd give a mini-update, in that no, I have not forgotten this thread. I saw Metal Sonic's request and will be answering it as soon as I've got the time to do so. (I've been tremendously busy as of late.)

How do you handle the self-vote?

Short version short, depends on the circumstances attached to it. In general, a nulltell,

potentially

town in select circumstances, but also not something particularly noteworthy.

Long version long, that will take some time to respond to.

So for the time being, have the guest speaker Zdenek's answer.

How do you handle the self-vote?

It's like everything else in mafia. You try to understand what the player is thinking in the particular circumstance to determine if it coming from a place of sincere frustration (or something) or if it's an act.

One thing I remember you writing is that you should have as many scumspects as there are scum or something along those lines. Now with the requisite ass kissing out of the way...

However in light of my recent Newbie1485 there was a point where I only had one scumspect. What should a player do if they have only one suspect? Or even worse, no suspects? The scum are too careful?

We all know that sometimes people have off days or someone is just a VI. When, if ever, should you not pursue the lynch of the scummiest player?

Similarly for you, when it comes to your two questions, I've seen both and will answer both as soon as I can.
During a break in my class (i.e., right now as I type) is...not that time.

Soyeah. I'm not neglecting this; it's actually near the top of my MD works that I need to get on top on. (There's about a dozen MD things on my list, total.)

A very brief answer for the first--be honest about your lack of scumspects, and try working it out the other way, by tiering your townreads and more importantly, why they are. Who's your stronger townreads, and why? Who's your decent townreads, and why? Who are weak townreads, and why? And if you've got nulls...why are they null? Working your way through that train of logic will give you a surprisingly large number of answers, most of the time.

As for the second--again, full answer to come, but you should never be pursuing the lynch of the scummiest player, but the player most likely to be scum. The two are not synonymous; you can be most-scummy yet be town and most likely to flip scum yet not appear that scummy. Assuming you meant when not to lynch the player most likely to be scum, again full answer to come, but basically, it's when you have strong motivating factors to not do so: they've claimed a PR on D1, deadline's today and you're the only one scumreading them, things like that.

What queue is a good way to explore the game and newb friendly?

Coulda sworn I answered this one already. Brief answer is definitely the Open Queue, and Micro Queues (depending on their type) are often good as well. Mini Normals are a tertiary option, but more of a gamble overall.

(Soyeah. Not neglecting. Just busy.)

[xRECKONERx]

mastin what do you think ab SEs in newbie games

[tosser]

how much of a role do you think the username plays on peoples' reads?

[Axxle]

how much of a role do you think the username plays on peoples' reads?

I know this is a joke but I found that avatars can have a noticeable effect on how you read players' tones in their posts, which affects reads.

[reinoe]

how much of a role do you think the username plays on peoples' reads?

In newbie 1492 a player was voted out during rvs because their name. It was an accident to be sure but it still happened.

[Jake from State Farm]

that's lol

A buddy of mine set his pronoun to she because he thinks girls don't get lynched often.

[Moratorium]

It's been an issue for me at times.

[Jake from State Farm]

I can't believe they lynched reinoe day 2

[Jake from State Farm]

It's been an issue for me at times.

Yeah your avatar makes you look like scum lol

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It may be a subconscious thing for people looking at me...

Of course, my general incomprehensibility makes a lot more of an impact.

[kuribo]

It's been an issue for me at times.

Yeah your avatar makes you look like scum lol

I picture some people, including you, as literally their avatar


I wanna buy insurance from you

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, I know I do it for you kuribo .

[Jake from State Farm]

It's been an issue for me at times.

Yeah your avatar makes you look like scum lol

I picture some people, including you, as literally their avatar


I wanna buy insurance from you

If I shaved I probably don't look to far off from that. You actually look like yours lol

[Jake from State Farm]

Well, I know I do it for you kuribo .

This guy is scum. Look at his avy

[Majiffy]

Siv is back!

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Not back. Just sorta hanging around for a while.

Gonna be back proper in about 5 weeks.

[tosser]

it is back

[tosser]

it is back

rofl

[Majiffy]

Not back. Just sorta hanging around for a while.

Gonna be back proper in about 5 weeks.

Just in time to join my large theme.