Tracking Karma (manually as of now)

[Espeonage]

Like, flaking on one game isn't the end of the world - x replaces out of a game of mine before, guess what? I don't blacklist for that, he probably got busy or whatever - he's generally super reliable and solid and also pm'd me to apologise. It's people who frequently replace out of games for shitty reasons (and it's even worse when they're still on site) that should be clamped down on. I mean, sure I guess you can just create an alt to build back up your rep but *shrug*. I'd lie to see stricter punishments for people who continously flake, they'll just join more games, and in places like the normal queue with first time moderaters they'll generally be accepted.

I used to be in the first category you mentioned and when I stuck with a game I'd specifically only post enough to make minimum requirement. If I'd been banned from playing, I wouldn't be able to be where I am now, as a player you is replacing in to games for half the games I'm playing now.

[N]

I don't think Faraday is suggesting permaban?

[Aegor]

It would count as one of each, so it would be a net negative to your overall score, yes.

So score would be the same as if I had managed to just play the game in it's entirety?

No.

Since there's a sqrt on the replace in part of the data, your score if just that one game would be below zero.

But the square root of 1 is 1.
(yes I know it was a newbie game and this point is invalid)

You are correct assuming you have replaced out of zero games. If you had replaced in or out of more than just that game, the equality ceases.

[Faraday]

Yeah, just a ban on signing up for new games for 2-3 years. (Nah, like a month? 6 weeks? I dunno)

[N]

Yeah, just a ban on signing up for new games for 2-3 years. (Nah, like a month? 6 weeks? I dunno)

I would personally say until the game you replaced out of finishes or something. (This was my selfimposed ban after I replaced out of your game!)

[talah]

The above does not take into consideration in any form the games I joined as a non-replacement

As far as I'm concerned, signing up to play a game is a promise from you to the mod and the other players that you'll see the game through. Why should I, or anyone else, reward you just for doing what you promised you'd do?

Mmm..mm.. well yes, except as I mentioned replacing out and replacing in do not appear to me to be opposite sides of the same coin.

Joining games (from scratch) and replacing into games are similar
Replacing out of games and completing games are dissimilar

Join game, replace out - negative
Join game, complete - nothing
Replace in, replace out - negative
Replace in, complete - positive

Games joined and completed have no Karma value to you? They don't improve the community?
And I just want to reiterate that having a negative index which is associated with a person is not the done thing in this day and age. It's an arms-length ad-hom attack. This would be much better calculated logarithmically (or whatever the correct calc is that reduces highly negative scores to points just above zero). Especially if you refuse to consider real life circumstances which might impact a player's ability to continue in a game.

Anyway I futzed the calcs before (if we're self-reporting), and forgot about a game I replaced into as an alt.
Presumably ongoings aren't counted even if the game's finished for oneself.

Replaced in one newb
Joined one newb
Replaced out of 2 newbs

Replaced in 2 games
Joined 3 games
Completed 4 games (2 'qualified')
Replaced out of 1 game

SQRT(2+2x1) - (1+2x2)
=> SQRT(4) - 5
=> 2 - 5
= -3

So I've been involved in seven completed games and replaced out of three, two of which were newbs.
However the numbers being considered are three replace-ins, three replace-outs.

All of the games being considered for replacing out, I did so because I lacked the mental fortitude to continue. In my first replace-out I had what was effectively a mental breakdown due to misunderstanding some of the rules in my first newb game, and replaced out of that and another game. The third replace was due to some horrendous interactions on-site which made me honestly think the best course of action was to finish up games and site-flake.

So my 'encouragement for reward' is to replace into as many newb games as I can when I'm taking baby-steps trying to become a better person with more mental resilience by carefully selecting the games I'm involved with and the load I can take on?

That doesn't make sense. You want people who have a history of not completing games, to be completing games and to have their 'karma' score reflect that. How they got into the game is not important for people who have a negative score - the completion is the more important statistic if you previously haven't been able to complete games and now can. Replacing in to have the score counted just adds more pressure. Your equation is inherently imbalanced towards those who would have a positive score already.

[Plessiez]

If you're going to collate all these data about replace-outs and replace-ins, I don't know why you're focused on producing a single number at all. Why not just make a wiki that lists all replace-outs and replace-ins (as in the link Vi gave in 14)? Failing that, why not just report the score as a

pair

of numbers (one for replace-ins and one for replace-outs)? Does this single score actually tell mods/players much that's useful?

I mean, let's compare fictional players:

Player A has played for five years, including nine replace-ins to large games with an average page length of 100. Five years ago they flaked from their second ever newbie game. A's score is sqrt(9) - 3*1 = 0, if I'm reading the formula correctly. Player B has only played three games. They replaced into three newbie games during day 1, always for people that had never actually posted, and they raqe-quit one of them on day 2 once a Cop claimed with a guilty on them. Their score is

also

sqrt(3*3)-3*1=0. Which of them do

you

want signing up for your game?

If you

do

want a single numerical score, for whatever reason, I think it should probably distinguish between replacing in/out from newbie games

as a newbie

as opposed to replacing in/out of these games as IC or SE. If the point of the score is to give mods an idea of how much of a flake-hazard you are, then negative karma from replacing-out should (asymptotically?) return to zero as you play more and more games to completition. If the idea of negative karma is to shame people into replacing-in to games, then of course you don't want this -- but then I'm not sure what value the scores have to actual mods. And if the karma score is meant to reflect how difficult it was to replace you / how much work you had to put in to replace-in, then at least track the game day when the replacement occured?

Although in this case, what if somebody decides to be the very best at this system, so they..... replace into lots of games and don't replace out of games! Oh wait, that's awesome.

Well, if anbody actually does decide to maximise their karma, I think they replace into lots of newbie games, preferably ones that are nearly over (they don't plan to read anything in the thread, so that's not a problem) and do as little as they possibly can to avoid being replaced from any games they're in.

I'm not sure having somebody repeatedly replace-into newbie games in lylo and cast a random vote (or alternate prod-dodges with demands that somebody else explain the game to them so they can cast an informed vote) is actually that awesome...

Yeah, just a ban on signing up for new games for 2-3 years. (Nah, like a month? 6 weeks? I dunno)

I would personally say until the game you replaced out of finishes or something.

But this punishes you a lot more for replacing out of a game on page 1 than it does for replacing out of a game on page 200, which seems backwards . Later game replace-outs have more of an impact on the game and it seems generally harder to replace those slots.

[sirdanilot]

Despite the fact that I have replaced out a bit more than I would have liked, I think my score would be good as I join almost all my games through replacing in rather than joining a new game...

I think the score should also take into account the amount of pages a game has upon replacing in. I rarely join a game where there's a ton of pages to be read since I prefer to read the thread at least.

[Mr. Flay]

I would personally say until the game you replaced out of finishes or something. (This was my selfimposed ban after I replaced out of your game!)

We just started doing this for modflakeouts.

[4nxi3ty]

We are NOT handling flakers well, mostly from lack of consequences (flake on one game, sign up for two more).

Oh. Looks like I'm ignorant of how big of an issue it is x/
I was always under the impression this community did a good job of recognizing problems and working on them.
maybe its only the resemblance to the blackdot-goldstar system that gets to me, but I think I'll be just fine with any system if it actually helps.

[Cheery Dog]

I decided to go through my wiki and self report myself
6 5 0 1 2.00

Although i could add another 2 normal replace ins from games not listed on my wiki.
(Game where all i got to do was die the night i replaced into a claimed power role slot and a game where i was at the time a non-public alt.)

[Malakittens]

CABD DO MINE

[Mr. Flay]

We are NOT handling flakers well, mostly from lack of consequences (flake on one game, sign up for two more).

Oh. Looks like I'm ignorant of how big of an issue it is x/
I was always under the impression this community did a good job of recognizing problems and working on them.

Individual mods can and do refuse flakers, and sometimes players get input (via WotC, or some similar mechanism). But there is no systematic method in place right now for dealing with flaking players, unfortunately there never has been. Largely it's the issue of how to track it effectively.

[Cabd]

Really this thread needs some kagami, she claims to have been working on a way to data scrape replacements from threads into a usable format.

[Kagami]

I do have that. Replacements are detectable, I think, as long as the mod announces them.

[Cabd]

I do have that. Replacements are detectable, I think, as long as the mod announces them.

If you feed me some sample data from this most recent year I'm gonna see what I can make happen.

[Kagami]

Format?

[Cabd]

I need four numbers for reach player.

Replace ins (non newbie games)
Replace ins (newbie games)
Replace outs (non newbie games)
Replace outs (newbie games)

As a CSV would be fine, raw text is fine too, I can manually enter them since it gets easier once the names are there already.

[Kagami]

For every playing account?

CSV is easy. Detecting hydrae and alts is not.

A bit of work either way, will prob take 30 minutes of coding to hack it up, and detection will probably be imperfect.

[Cabd]

Well, hydrae can be tracked seperately then I can manually combine those.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm taking all challenges for karma high scores btw

[Aegor]

Replaced into another non-newbie game.

[mykonian]

newbie in (5): 660, 665, 708, 1282, 1310
newbie out ():
in (15): mini 701, 707, 757, 815, 826, 1055, 1069, 1338, 1525 open 93, 228, 260, large 89, HP/philostone, song contest.
out (3): purified mafia, mini 1526, 1537

4.69. happy.

[Kazekirimaru]

I'm taking all challenges for karma high scores btw

One of my first thoughts hearing about this. The completionist in me wants to hit a ceiling if one is ever implemented.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Replace ins:

5 micros (267, 264, 249, 250, 245)
4 newbies (1431, 1434, 1422, 1360)
3 large themes (all are still ongoing)
2 minis (1504, 1511)
3 opens (533, 530, 534)

Replace outs:

1 large theme (game was abandoned) - Pokemon Nuzlocke
1 mini - 1462
1 open - 534 (replaced into this and then replaced out)
(in addition to these, I had to replace out of 3 micros at the same time because my laptop broke - 161, 193, 197)

What's my score?

Edit

: I'm a dummy and didn't read the instructions.

Replace ins, non-newbie: 13
Replace ins, newbie: 4

Replace outs, non-newbie: 6
Replace outs, newbie: 0

(Note: I really think replacing into a large theme should garner more points since replacements are harder to find for those, and we should not count forced replacements like when my laptop broke and I had no choice.)

Edit 2:

Excel is my friend.
If not counting 3 games where my laptop broke, my score is 1.58.
If counting 3 games where my laptop broke, my score is -1.42.