Mini 362 - Open Role Bastard Mafia (Game Over)

[help im a bug]

I think mass claiming is definitely a bad idea in this game--it would not tell us who any of the scum are, but would give them clear targets among the town.

[kirbyphreak]

mass claiming= no. awful idea. No Lynch though, could end up as what happens. The simple fact is, bandwagoning won't really help. I think we should not no lynch right now, but continue discussion and use it if nothing ends up happening. Other than that, not much to say.

[Nai]

No lynch, in this set-up, is a bad idea. If they have the vig... Well, we need to find a good lynch. We have a chance of getting mafia, so no-lynch is never a good idea like this.

[bethelmark]

No lynch is definitely a bad idea here. Claiming is all for naught as well, as there is no way to determine alignment. Even a player claiming an important role if he's going to be lynched (such as the cop) means nothing here.

[kirbyphreak]

i dont think the mafia would have the vig. giving them 2 NKs a night is absurd. Unless, of course, the vig is their only NK. I dont know.

[Bogre]

I don't believe no lynch would be of any benefit here.

If you are looking to see if the scum have the vig or not by looking to see if there was a night kill, there is nothing stopping the vig, if he is scum, from withholding that kill. Then the town has confusion. Plus, whatever Pariah's 'bastardization' is will affect someone. Maybe that means a pro-town role will be nerfed, who knows. If someone else has a clue what the bastardization might entail, please offer your thoughts on that.

Simply put, IMO we'll learn a lot more from a lynch today than we'll be able to know by a no lynch tomorrow.

[M4yhem]

I have no idea what bastardation does, but I don't think there's any harm in speculating about it. I'm guessing it changes the role into something that works completly the opposite from what it's meant to. The problem is, some of the roles already work like that, like the crazy cop. Maybe the cop becomes a normal cop if he's bastardised?

Kirbyphreak seems to agree with me about the no lynch idea. I think we should call it 'plan Z' and only use it if we really need to.

Even if the vigilate kills tonight, we can't be sure he's mafia. He could just be a trigger happy townie. It's an interesting idea that the Vig might have the mafia's only kill, but we won't be able to find out until we've seen a few nights.

Right now, we just need something to talk about. What about that bandwagon on Zindaras? Whats that about?

Unvote:Bogre

because he followed my command. Good Bogre!

[Twomz]

Although there's nothing in the rules that says that the Mod can only do antitown bastardizations, I doubt he would nerf the scums good luck that much by taking away their NK, just cause they have a vig.

I too think "bastardization" will be a lot like a role reversal. Cops sanity changes, doc is placebo/vig, vig rbs instead of kills, dogs sleep w/ cats, etc. Also, i'm not totally clear about whether one person is "bastardized" each night, or if there's a chance for each person that they'll be bastardized. (heck, maybe there's a player that gets to pick, i need to read the roles at the beginning closer).

[Bogre]

There is actually a role that bastardizes/unbastardizes players, looking at the roles. Apparantly the Genealogist reverses the status of the player when he targets them.

[Zindaras]

Looking at it, I'd say the Inventor, Professor and Cleric are potentially bastard roles, because they're dealing with unknowns.

The "forced target for all non-vigilantes" thing kinda backs up the fact that not everyone may be wanting to target someone.

[ShadowLurker]

I don't see right now how you guys speculating on roles is helping the town. It may help out when someone claims it but right now, it's just giving scum potential ideas on which roles may be the best and which ones they should try to off first =\

[help im a bug]

Well, claims will help. I don't understand what Twomz means by saying that counterclaims aren't going to help. Just because we know WHAT roles are in this game doesn't mean that a counterclaim does nothing. You treat a counterclaim in this game like a counterclaim in any other game: Lynch the first claimer then, if they're not scum, lynch the other one.

unvote, vote: nai

[Zindaras]

i dont think the mafia would have the vig. giving them 2 NKs a night is absurd. Unless, of course, the vig is their only NK. I dont know.

The Mafia is determined randomly. So, hypothetically, it is possible for it to contain the vig, the doc and the cop.

I don't see right now how you guys speculating on roles is helping the town. It may help out when someone claims it but right now, it's just giving scum potential ideas on which roles may be the best and which ones they should try to off first =\

The scum doesn't know who's what role.

[help im a bug]

I don't see right now how you guys speculating on roles is helping the town. It may help out when someone claims it but right now, it's just giving scum potential ideas on which roles may be the best and which ones they should try to off first =\

The scum doesn't know who's what role.

I don't see how your comment is relevant?

[Zindaras]

I don't see how your comment is relevant?

If the scum doesn't know who's what role, then they can't pick off the most powerful players either.

[Twomz]

The scum knows what roles are out there, but they don't know who has what role.

[M4yhem]

Shadowlurker; unless we start wondering who has what role, I don't see how ideal speculation can hurt the town.

Help, is there any reason for that vote on Nai? Or is it to early for reasons?

Do you think we should consider the geneologist a threat to the town?
I think any role could be bastardised. Pariah just needs to make sure that the role no longer does what it's supposed to. We might even see vanilla villagers who can't vote.

[Bogre]

FOS Shadowlurker

Role speculation is not anti-town in this game. Trying to speculate about -who- has which role very well might be at this point.

But take this hypothetical situation: Player A is the genealogist, B is the bastard patrol, C is a vanilla.

C pressures A, believing him to be scum. After the day ends with say another lynch, A bastardizes C. B investigates C the next night, finding out he's been bastardized.

Then he can use that knowledge. Say that A is scum, player C has a lot more information about it. Say C is townie. He claims day four at LYLO, and is counterclaimed by an evil scum. C can use his knowledge about the probability of A being who he says he is to help the town.

And especially trying to figure out what bastardization entails...that is gonna be a big part of this game IMO.

[ShadowLurker]

FOS Shadowlurker

Role speculation is not anti-town in this game. Trying to speculate about -who- has which role very well might be at this point.

I think I'm going to

Unvote

and

Vote: Bogre

. If claims are definitely anti town, then how the heck would speculating who has what role not be anti town?

But take this hypothetical situation: Player A is the genealogist, B is the bastard patrol, C is a vanilla.

C pressures A, believing him to be scum. After the day ends with say another lynch, A bastardizes C. B investigates C the next night, finding out he's been bastardized.

Then he can use that knowledge. Say that A is scum, player C has a lot more information about it. Say C is townie. He claims day four at LYLO, and is counterclaimed by an evil scum. C can use his knowledge about the probability of A being who he says he is to help the town.

And especially trying to figure out what bastardization entails...that is gonna be a big part of this game IMO.

Umm.. C wouldn't know he's been bastardized, would he? And also, he could've been bastardized from the beginning of the game. Also, A can also unbastardize people. You just picked a very specific case out of mililons. How do you even know Day 4 will be LYLO? I think you made this post merely to confuse people.

[Pariah]

Vote Count

Zindaras: (2)

Twomz, Fritzler

Bogre: (2)

Bethelmark, Shadowlurker

Kirbyphreak: (2)

Bogre, Nai

Nai: (2)

Kirbyphreak, help im a bug

Twomz: (1)

Chamber

Shadowlurker: (1)

themanhimself

Fritzler: (1)

Zindaras

7 to lynch.

[help im a bug]

FOS Shadowlurker

Role speculation is not anti-town in this game. Trying to speculate about -who- has which role very well might be at this point.

I think I'm going to

Unvote

and

Vote: Bogre

. If claims are definitely anti town, then how the heck would speculating who has what role not be anti town?

Uh... either you misread what he said, or you're misrepresenting it, I think.

[Bogre]

Shadowlurker...did you even read my post? You completely misconstrued the first part. (Reading back, I did make a mistake in my example, its supposed to be B uses his knowledge, not C. yeah, correct on that point, thanks for pointing it out.)

Proper hypothetical situation revised to remove confusion:

-----------------------------------------------------
Player A is the genealogist, B is the bastard patrol, C is a vanilla.

C pressures A, believing him to be scum. After the day ends with say another lynch, A bastardizes C. B investigates C the next night, finding out he's been bastardized.

Then he can use that knowledge. Say that A is scum, player C has a lot more information about it. Say C is townie. He claims day four at LYLO, and is counterclaimed by an evil scum. B can use his knowledge about the probability of A being who he says he is to help the town.
---------------------------------------------------

And yes, Shadowlurker, that knowledge is not sound. There are plenty of stuff that can get in the way or confuse. But thats the case with any kind of intuitive guessing a player makes in Mafia games. But -combined- with reading the game, analyzing posts and votes, and everything else, it could be very useful.

Speculating about the roles -functions- is not anti-town. You're trying to say I outright contradicted myself in two sentences, when I didn't. I said speculating -who- the roles belong to is antitown. Not their function.

Your OMGUS looks pretty scummy to me, by the way. Maybe you misread my post. Possible. Thats why I don't have a vote sitting on you right now. But if you continue to support your reasons for voting me after reading this post, I'll know where to put it because those reasons are very wrong.

[Nai]

Unvote, Vote: Help I'm A Bug

for the vote with no reason. Otherwise known as OMGUS vote in most cases. Apparently, saying that counterclaiming is useful is scummy.

I also don't think that speculation on role workings is scummy. As it's been said before, more information can only help the town. True, revealing who is who is decidedly not helpful. But speculation does help the town in every instance of the word.

[ShadowLurker]

Ugh, I read this quote:

Trying to speculate about -who- has which role very well might be at this point.

As saying that we should speculate who has which role to help us.

That's why I voted you. Since I obviously read that wrong, I'm going to

Unvote

and wait for other people to talk so I can see who I should stick it on

[Twomz]

LOL, Counterclaiming vanilla townies .