Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Mert]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Man, I'm starting to hate the woe is me approach to these things. A protown move would be to explain your actions and play it cool. People make mistakes, it's human nature. But to just give up and say "well, fine. Lynch me if you want to" doesn't help the town and doesn't help you stay alive. You're never in a Catch 22 as there's always a counter-argument. And besides, if someone keeps pushing you into a Catch 22 type environment, that might help find scum in itself.

But yeah, move to make addition to PJ's list of things he doesn't want to see: woe is me posts.

As for Bird, I didn't say you didn't acknowledge the point of voting, I said you look like you're setting up plausible deniability for the future if someone calls you on your voting patterns. By making "joke" posts and trivialising the purpose of votes in this game, you could be setting up a mechanism whereby you can say "hey, I'm the sort of guy that makes joke votes! Don't look at my record in

too

much scrutiny!"

[Thok]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Why are you claiming? It can't possibly be a useful strategy here. (Maybe the Kingmaker should claim if on a LOE. IMOMNBTK [I may or may not be the kingmaker-since I expect to be saying this phrase a lot, I better just create an acronym now])

The only argument I can see in favor keeping you around is that you are behaving much like RandomActs did day 1 in Kingmaker I. Which lead to the lynch of a townie.

On other things:

Glork-pablito makes me more suspicious of pablito then Glork; if one of them is scum it's much more likely to be pablito, who was seemingly trying to link himself with a player of high reputation.

I agree with the trying to keep the Kingmaker as hidden as possible; I was making this argument even before the endgame justification in Kingmaker I. I'd prefer that scum doesn't get a chance to kill a kingmaker who's good at his job in hopes of replacing him with a less talented kingmaker. (IMOMNBTK).

In general I agree with PJ's big post.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

damnit Twomz,

don't apologize for your individuality or any style choices you made.

Who cut off your balls?

I scare you Shadowlurker? Why? Cuz You're scum and you are scared I will see through your facade and CRUSH you?

Shake In Fear Scumbags, Shake!

[Yosarian2]

Wow...4 pages to comment on in the last 8 hours? Interesting. Well, let me get started...

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

Actually, I think it's best that the scum not know who the kingmaker is, becuase then they could AVOID killing him. The scum tend to kill off whomever looks pro-town; it might actually be in our favor if they happen kill off a kingmaker who already looked pro-town, and then if a person who looks less clearly pro-town will become kingmaker, which would hopefully let the town avoid a mislynch and get information in the process about who tried to lynch the kingmaker. If the kingmaker gets outed too early, then the scum can just avoid killing him, and the "confirmed innocence" factor would be less useful.

[Yosarian2]

@PJ, #2C) Deal with it.

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

[Yosarian2]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Things never, ever to do in a mafia game, if you want to win, from bad to worst:

1. Bad. Get frustrated and stop posting.

2. Worse. Actually say "I'm frustrated, I'm going to just stop posting".

3. Worse yet: Say "Just go ahead and lynch me". There's never a good reason to say this, and there's certanly no logical reason for you to give up now; you're not even the #1 suspect based on votes at the moment , I think (although I could be wrong, this game is moving so fast).

4. Worst of all: claim for no good reason, especally if you're a townie. Not as big a deal in this game as others, as almost everyone is a townie, but it's still bad; it gives the scum information and dosn't help the town at all.

Now, all of these are mistakes that newbies seem to make all the time no matter what their alignment, so I'm not going to vote for you just yet. But in general, those are all things that you should never do; they don't help, they just hurt the town and make it more likely you'll be lynched, and I think that you just moved up on everyone's list of suspicion, including mine, because of them.

[Yosarian2]

Bah. That was supposed to be a quote of posts 105 and 108, not a quote of post 108 twice. But you get the idea.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

You can draw all the attention you want and still be very unhelpful for the town, it's called lurking in plain sight.

Vote: MOS

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

You can draw all the attention you want and still be very unhelpful for the town, it's called lurking in plain sight.

Vote: MOS

So? I'm not arguing whether or not it's helpful (that's another debate). I'm arguing that I'm clearly NOT trying to stay under the radar. That, in and of itself, is a ludicrous claim made by someone just trying to stir up suspicion.

[petroleumjelly]

Had a few spare moments to read the thread at the Philosophy Department, and *ugh*. Please don't claim so quickly, people: the game

just started

. Try to keep this point in mind (and remember that I made it for a reason):

B.) Putting somebody on the LoE does not mean I am going to automatically execute you: what it means is that I (or the town) find you suspicious, so you need to defend yourself, or that you are suspicious despite an attempt at defense.

DO NOT claim prematurely. If you need to claim anything (at least for today), I will be the first person to tell you to do so with my 48-hour rule

.

There is no reason to claim if there is no imminent threat of execution, which I will always be sure to tell the town about in advance. Votes do not equate to a lynch in this game, since the King has the ultimate say in who is executed.

And that also brings me back to the point about Kingmakers (which Yos and Thok correctly pointed out a few reasons as to why it is still probably in the town's best interests to keep the Kingmaker hidden, if possible. Another point is that if the scum can determine who the Kingmaker is, they may specifically have a scum player who tries to buddy with that Kingmaker (however subtly) in order to become King (which of course allows scum to very much manipulate and direct a given day's execution). The Kingmaker has a large (indirect) say in any given execution, since they determine who will do the executing, and that often correlates to choosing a King who has thoughts similar to the Kingmaker (and as I noted, if scum can slip into that category, bad things can happen for the town).

Going back to the original game, I tried this tactic to a degree (although I pretty much gave up after I had realized there were going to be confirmed townies to choose over me in that game), and since I thought the Kingmaker was Thok in that game, I tried [and failed miserably] to keep on Thok's good side (until about Day Four, when I instead tried to out him as Kingmaker to see the reactions). If the scum can convince the Kingmaker that they are town, then the Kingmaker will probably be more prone to either choose that scum as King, or to choose another person who will be more lenient towards that certain scum. It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent

last

game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Sorry this post doesn't go much into direct suspicions, I'm a bit pressed for time and thought I would clarify those points as soon as possibile. I will have to review the cbox situation, since his claim and giving up simply struck me as frustrated... whether it was frustrated town or frustrated scum I have yet to decide. Hopefully more on that tonight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@PJ, #2C) Deal with it.

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

You'd better hope I become King soon, then. I'm not afraid of the big bad vote. If the King decides to execute me, so be it. I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

[Yosarian2]

You'd better hope I become King soon, then. I'm not afraid of the big bad vote. If the King decides to execute me, so be it. I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

Can you actually make any kind of argument why you not voting is helpful to the town?

And I don't know why you're assuming the opinion of the people who don't like your "plan" to never vote is meaningless. For one thing, our current king has already said he is going to take votes into account when making a list of people he'd consider executing. For another, making multiple people wonder why you're acting in an apparently anti-town way is bad because you never know who will be king tommorow.

[MrBuddyLee]

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

[ShadowLurker]

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

Although that was a joke, I would just like to say we should ALWAYS give the King the benefit of the doubt or else, this day won't be productive at all.

So for now, assume PJ is town and his intentions are good so we won't get sidetracked.


Happy with all of my votes atm.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You'd better hope I become King soon, then. I'm not afraid of the big bad vote. If the King decides to execute me, so be it. I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

Can you actually make any kind of argument why you not voting is helpful to the town?

And I don't know why you're assuming the opinion of the people who don't like your "plan" to never vote is meaningless. For one thing, our current king has already said he is going to take votes into account when making a list of people he'd consider executing. For another, making multiple people wonder why you're acting in an apparently anti-town way is bad because you never know who will be king tommorow.

Nope. It's not antitown, either. It's just how I feel. And I don't feel like voting. Also, I'm not assuming that your opinion is meaningless, I just

don't

care

. For those of you skimmers who use votes to keep track of shit, then you can assume that I find no one scummy, if it makes you happy. If you want to know who I think is scum, you'll actually have to read my posts. If you want a quick reference of what I thought, take notes on what I say. It'll be better for you in the end.

[Thok]

Although that was a joke, I would just like to say we should ALWAYS give the King the benefit of the doubt or else, this day won't be productive at all.

So for now, assume PJ is town and his intentions are good so we won't get sidetracked.

It's not as if anybody will be king permanently. If you think there's evidence that a king is scum, you should point it out for town to consider on future days.

(It's also conceivable that putting pressure on a scum king might force him into making a suboptimal execution.)

I think this warrants an

FOS Shaodwlurker

.

[Twomz]

MoS, the big red letters and repeated bringing up of your post was meant to counteract that happening. You will be watched if I have anything to say about it... so be forewarned *shakes finger*.

Shadowlurker... try not to assume anything in mafia. But, even if the king is scum, there's nothing he can do except try to hurt the town, or hide himself under the position.

[Vaughn]

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

Glad I'm not the only one who saw that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, the big red letters and repeated bringing up of your post was meant to counteract that happening. You will be watched if I have anything to say about it... so be forewarned *shakes finger*.

Shadowlurker... try not to assume anything in mafia. But, even if the king is scum, there's nothing he can do except try to hurt the town, or hide himself under the position.

So basically, you admit to contradicting yourself but you don't care. Got it.

[Thok]

In defense of MOS, his position on voting was essentially that of Fuldu in Kingmaker I. (Of course, that position got Fuldu in trouble also.) As long as he actually does his homework of saying who he finds suspicious and gives reasons for those suspicions, I don't quite mind him not voting; I'll only hold it against him if he does start lurking and stops provide helpful content.

I mean, I would prefer it if MOS made votes, built cases, caught scum, and generally did constructive things to help clarify the game to town. And such behavior is also a good example to others in the game; posting votes and generally being active will encourage people to participate, which is a fairly big concern in this setup.

[ShadowLurker]

Although that was a joke, I would just like to say we should ALWAYS give the King the benefit of the doubt or else, this day won't be productive at all.

So for now, assume PJ is town and his intentions are good so we won't get sidetracked.

It's not as if anybody will be king permanently. If you think there's evidence that a king is scum, you should point it out for town to consider on future days.

(It's also conceivable that putting pressure on a scum king might force him into making a suboptimal execution.)

I think this warrants an

FOS Shaodwlurker

.

Yeah, I'm sure we'll get tons done in the day arguing whether over the current King is scum or not.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thok, you should fix your siggy. You need quotes around hiab's name.

[Thok]

Yeah, I'm sure we'll get tons done in the day arguing whether over the current King is scum or not.

Any day where the King is scum is likely a lost day anyways. In that case you might as well point out why he is scum; maybe you can convince town to have such a scum test a hero claim or try to execute a likely partner.

Vikingfan may want to clarify this, but from my point of view part of the reason town won Kingmaker I is because I was willing to attack broomhead the second time he was king.

I mean, as of right now PJ is solidly in my protown list. But that's because I agree with his posting; I'm not going to give him a free pass just because he's the king.

[Thok]

Thok, you should fix your siggy. You need quotes around hiab's name.

It's deliberate. If I actually put the quotes there, then I just get a sentence (and no quote box or reference to hiab, since quote boxes are disabled in sigs). I really should just put hiab's name at the end of the sentence and no quote tags at all, but I prefer this style.

[Ameliaslay]

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

Glad I'm not the only one who saw that.

My sentiments precisely.