Kingmaker II-Game Over

[pablito]

Actually, MBL, I was waiting and delaying my response to you. I just wanted to see if you'd persist. And you have. Still doesn't warrant my unvote or my response yet. But I have given you my defense of cbox, and the fact that you lead the charge against him should suffice as a reason for now. I will address "my awkwardness" later when I have more time to post.

vote: Mert

Mert is trying to look like he's some defender of justified voting styles or something when in reality he's just pushing around the stupid wagons that have nothing to do with actual scumminess. He's just pushing suspicion on people who have decided to abandon "traditional voting". Voting by gut, not voting at all and making joke votes aren't inherently scummy (frustrating, though, yes), and they're some wagons that can pick up speed very very fast. The whole argument is about trying to "hide their true intentions" because we have no paper trail. But Mert is also trying to hide his true suspicions by voting cbox - who is way too easy of a vote to show his true suspicions and voting based on a set rule (those who refuse to vote how he votes). I think it's scummy to vote based upon a "rule". And then he tries to pair up MoS and Phoebus which I really don't understand.

[MrBuddyLee]

So, pablito, if your vote on me is justified, what do you think of the ones placed with no justification whatsoever?

[Yosarian2]

so? Does it look like I'm trying to make myself look protown?

So...you don't care if you help the town or not, is what you're saying?

[Glork]

Wake me up when September ends.

That's one of maybe two Green Day songs that I actually like.... [/random fact]

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

If you want to know who I think is scum, you'll actually have to read my posts. If you want a quick reference of what I thought, take notes on what I say. It'll be better for you in the end.

I don't have to care what you think to play mafia...

As for the notes, a) they'll help you be a better player, and b) since people are complaining that it'll be harder to track my suspicions, if you take notes it'll be easier

It's kind of interesting that you keep saying everyone needs to read your posts and take notes to find out who you suspect, yet you have not written about any suspicions in any of your posts yet.

Wow, you're so full of shit. Clearly you didn't take my advice and actually

read

my posts.

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

You can draw all the attention you want and still be very unhelpful for the town, it's called lurking in plain sight.

Vote: MOS

So? I'm not arguing whether or not it's helpful (that's another debate). I'm arguing that I'm clearly NOT trying to stay under the radar. That, in and of itself, is a ludicrous claim made by someone just trying to stir up suspicion.

MoS, the big red letters and repeated bringing up of your post was meant to counteract that happening. You will be watched if I have anything to say about it... so be forewarned *shakes finger*.

Shadowlurker... try not to assume anything in mafia. But, even if the king is scum, there's nothing he can do except try to hurt the town, or hide himself under the position.

So basically, you admit to contradicting yourself but you don't care. Got it.

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

Glad I'm not the only one who saw that.

My sentiments precisely.

Glad I saw you two trying to play MBL's 5% into something a little bigger than that by reinforcing the idea in everyone's minds.

Clearly I'm suspicious of Twomz, Vaughn, and Ameliaslay. In the future, don't expect me to be this nice about it, either. I will not go around saying "I suspect so-and-so". That's where the whole reading of my posts thing comes into play. Next time do your homework, kthnxbai.

[cardb0ardb0x]

examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious.

Awwww, you're so SWEET!

Seriously, though, only Fritzler gets to lynch people around here cause they're obnoxious. People who push for lynches of the "obnoxious" regardless of contribution to the cause are more likely scum.

Sorry if it feels like you're being ganged up on, but your behavior is not pro-town so far. Maybe try changing that instead of surrendering. Give it the old college try.

So who're your scumpartners?

Come on, man, stop quoting me out of context. Here's the actual quote.

if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

I don't want to build a rivalry with you, buddylee, i apologized earlier and you're really riding my bandwagon hard.

Why are you claiming?

Claiming when not under pressure is a scum-tell.

Other people have said this too. Here's the deal:

There are only mafia and townies in this game. Everyone in the entire game is trying to claim townie right now. Would someone try to claim mafia? Am I missing something?

(The kingmaker really is just a townie. The hero pretty much is, too.)

Yeah, my "boo hoo" posts were bad, I thought maybe that would be an effective strategy online, and was mixing it up. But I really *did* think it would be very revealing of certain players if I was lynched and thereby confirmed townie.

Cb0x, have you read the original Kingmaker? I am interested to know.

I read the engame report... I don't have the patience to read anything that huge.

Are we going to do a vote count anytime soon? It's tough with this game being 7 pages long already.

[Thok]

Why are you claiming?

Claiming when not under pressure is a scum-tell.

Other people have said this too. Here's the deal:

There are only mafia and townies in this game. Everyone in the entire game is trying to claim townie right now. Would someone try to claim mafia? Am I missing something?

Let me rephrase my question. What do you expect to gain from saying you are a townie? Even if there's no disadvantage to claiming (which I don't think is true), you can't really expect people to suddenly go "Oh my god! carb0ardb0x claimed townie! He's definately not mafia!"

In my mind, your claiming seems to have no advantage, and the possibility of an actual disadvantage.

[MrBuddyLee]

cbox, here's the thing. I don't know your alignment. I'm attacking you because I want to try to discern your alignment. You should see that as a positive development. It's not a rivalry in the least... and if anything I say seems unfair or disproportionate you should point it out in an attempt to discern MY alignment.

There's not really any such thing as a bandwagon in this game either. The King gets to look at the "wagon" on you and decide if it's meritworthy or not. I suspect he'll look more at your words and arguments against you than at the number of votes against you. And if the king makes a bad judgment and chooses to execute you unfairly, as you say that'll provide info not only on the King but also on the people who voted you.

And I didn't really quote you out of context. You called me annoying, which was the most interesting part of both the snippet and the greater quote. I hope in time you'll see a grilling as less annoying and more part of the mafia process.

[Thok]

Thinking about the MBL-Vaughn-Ameliaslay sorta jump on PJ, I realized that we really ought to get Vaughn/Ameliasly/vikingfan to say something about their experiences as scum in Kingmaker I, just to get some possibly different perspective on scum strategies in this sort of game.

I find it weird that Ameliaslay didn't have something to say about PJ's comments but only reacted to MBL's followup (Vaughn at least made some small comments about wagonning before that observation), and I believe that's worth a

vote Ameliaslay

[Ameliaslay]

My non-comment on PJ's thoughts was only post-poned til later this evening, when I take a break from writing this darn paper.

[Thok]

My

non-comment

on PJ's thoughts was only post-poned til later this evening, when I take a break from writing this darn paper.

Huh?

confirm vote Ameliaslay

[ShadowLurker]

Unvote pablito

Vote Phoebus and Mert

[Glork]

Dude, four people picked up on the fact that PJ is making a huuuuuge deal about how he was scum last time and "isn't" this time around. It's pretty obvious to me that PJ has been pushing the notion a bit too hard.

The fact of the matter is that it's a little ridiculous to be trying to predict scum behavior here based on last time around. If you want PJ's thoughts on last game, look here. Note how much of that

doesn't apply this time around

. Undobutedly, we will have some different Assassins. We have a different Kingmaker Successsion system, and we have NO POWER ROLES. (I would argue that a Hero is not a "power role.") I'm freely willing to concede that there may be some rough parallels. But the fact that just about every third post of PJ's is "I was scum last time, and I tried this, so I would expect everyone to do so" is either flawed or misleading.



And by "non-comment," Amelia obviously means "placeholder side-comment." It appears as though Amelia plans on elaborating in the near future. Give her the chance to do so.
(Sorry if I stepped on your toes, 'Slay... I just wanted to share my side of the story.)

[Thok]

Um, then why wouldn't she just say comment? It seems like a weird choice of wording, as though she was essentially admitting she was going to make some sort of active lurking comment that didn't say anything.

My first thought on reading PJ's big post wasn't "He's trying to promote that he's protown this time", it was "Wow, that's a bunch of good ideas for us to think about." He didn't have to post any of those comments at all. There's also a lack of symmetry; I've probably been implicitly hinting at the usefulness of my protown experience from last game as much as PJ's been hinting at the usefulness of his scum experience from last tme, but there's was no parallel jump on me as there was on PJ.

[Vaughn]

Your defense of PJ is striking me as funny, Thok. I feel that PJ should've answered to our suspicions, but you answered for him. Interesting, that's all.

I beleive it may be the explicity of which PJ's exclaiming how he was "scum last time, and town this time".

We all know that we all have an equal likelihood to be scum, due to the mod, randomly assigning roles to everyone. Although we appreciate that fact that we can use information and techniques learned from last game in this game, I feel that he shouldn't have to keep on repeating how he was

scum last time

, as if it offers some validity to his arguements for

THIS

game.

[MrBuddyLee]

Vaughn's failure to lurk is a stark difference from last game. He's prolly town.

[vikingfan]

Thok, I can volunteer some thoughts about being scum but it's not that much as I pretty much only showed up for endgame. Basically, when I replaced, I had to choose whether to lynch my scumbuddy Vaughn and hopefully appear more innocent. I would say from that that just because someone lynches an Assassin should not automatically clear them, especially if everyone else is clamoring for it. Unfortunately, I had a claim that made me the next logical lynch and thus I was on the chopping block. But I think it's a good policy to not always trust voting policy, especially since a vote or FOS carries little weight in a votecount. It's much easier for scum to vote each other or not vote each other and have it sail by.

[Ameliaslay]

Okay, my thoughts: which are catching me up from page three.. so don't grump!

And by "non-comment," Amelia obviously means "placeholder side-comment." It appears as though Amelia plans on elaborating in the near future. Give her the chance to do so.
(Sorry if I stepped on your toes, 'Slay... I just wanted to share my side of the story.)

That was exactly what I was saying... Thankyou for not misinterpreting!

Um, then why wouldn't she just say comment? It seems like a weird choice of wording, as though she was essentially admitting she was going to make some sort of active lurking comment that didn't say anything.

I thought you'd appreciate the fact that I'm intending to post, and wouldn't be posting just because you called me out or whatever.. but essentially twas a placeholder..

On PJ: Pretty much I'm in the same position as he is, I'm having to think about things from a different angle, because as he said " I spent pretty much an entire day trying to think of a system so that scum could manipulate the voting to some degree, while trying to present such an idea so that it would sound pro-town."
I do however like the idea of having some limits on the king and I honestly like the system he proposes to hold himself to.
I like the LoE

"I don't need to vote because my vote doesn't matter anyways." I hate this. Hate, hate, hate. Why would you sign up for a game if you aren't going to play? Votes are an essential tool in scum-hunting: refusing to use that tool is not helping the town. I want everybody participating and voting, no questions asked.

it might actually be in our favor if they happen kill off a kingmaker who already looked pro-town, and then if a person who looks less clearly pro-town will become kingmaker, which would hopefully let the town avoid a mislynch and get information in the process about who tried to lynch the kingmaker.

But wouldn't whomever it was that tried to lynch the kingmaker be semi-justified if it wasn't clear that the kingmaker were pro-town?



I whole-heartedly agree with this, but I think I'm going to be a little conservative with my votes regardless. I really don't like MoS's attitude toward the voting process though. I think if you don't vote you can't be nailed down for one opinion or another- even if we take notes on his posts he could always downplay suspicions because of their non-concreteness.

[quote="cbox"It’s possible that both pablito and glork are scum. The idea is that pablito is the over-eager mafia, trying to support his pal. Glork knows how to play, and therefore doesn’t want the obvious attention and association, whether he is scum or not.[/quote]
Something about this, I just really didn't like... something really sounds off in the way he phrased that... especially when followed with this..

So, overall, I would suggest executing pablito, and if he is confirmed scum (is their role revealed when they are killed?) i guess glork would be next. Obviously I'm not completely sure about any of them.

ooh and then there was this bit of post, voting Glork because he was told to..

The reason I'm not voting for Glork at this point is that the only situations suggested to me by their actions are that either both of them are townies, pablito is scum and glork is townie, or both are scum. Is it all right if I just kind of FOS Glork at this point? Actually, I'll Vote: Glork for presure, and then take it off .

However, I recognize the attitude behind this post, so that slightly diffuses my sentiment on the other posts, so I'll just

FOS:cbox

there's really not much else I can say in my defense that i didn't say already, so I'll just be quiet for now.

Now, all of these are mistakes that newbies seem to make all the time no matter what their alignment, so I'm not going to vote for you just yet. But in general, those are all things that you should never do; they don't help, they just hurt the town and make it more likely you'll be lynched, and I think that you just moved up on everyone's list of suspicion, including mine, because of them.

Precisely why I myself didn't add a vote, and Yos puts all the stuff about being a newb and how not to act so nicely..

if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious

*rofl

I agree with the trying to keep the Kingmaker as hidden as possible; I was making this argument even before the endgame justification in Kingmaker I. I'd prefer that scum doesn't get a chance to kill a kingmaker who's good at his job in hopes of replacing him with a less talented kingmaker. (IMOMNBTK

I didn't really read the endgame of I, so I'd never really thought about it like that... I honestly couldn't ever think of the Kingmaker as a very important confirmable person. I'm glad you brought that out, that makes it a lot clearer in my mind..

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

I mainly just thought this funny.. twasn't trying to reinforce the idea.. but it did kinda niggle in the back of my mind, but again I see where PJ's coming from and so I don't really doubt his sincerity.....

[Twomz]

Hey, are there even any Pros to outing the kingmaker? How does it help the town? Just curious.

PJ, could we have at least a preliminary LoE up by this coming Friday? I think it would help move the discussion along, and focus the analysis of the town, instead of spreading it out amounst 10 or so players.

Does anyone have any lingering questions about the setup and how the selection process works? (both official, and todays LoE method from PJ) I don't want anyone saying later on that they're sorry that they made a mistake because they didn't understand the setup. (i'm not sure why, but it popped into my head to ask this... hm)

[ChannelDelibird]

Hey, are there even any Pros to outing the kingmaker? How does it help the town? Just curious.

Unless some idiot tries to fake-claim Kingmaker, it does mean that we're sure that person is town and therefore we can focus our lynch elsewhere (this should only happen if the kingmaker gets heavily bandwagoned/close to execution). However I'd rather not out the Kingmaker, as that's not a huge help.

I'm putting together some of my thoughts. Will post them all in a nice shiny post a bit later on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vaughn's failure to lurk is a stark difference from last game. He's prolly town.

Vaughn lurks as town, too

[MrBuddyLee]

*takes a wrench to MoS's sarcasm-detector*

[ChannelDelibird]

All right, here’s my take on stuff since my second-to-most-recent post.

There's really not much else I can say in my defense that i didn't say already, so I'll just be quiet for now. As long as I can. I know there are a lot of posts and theres huge flooding, but please read my entire post and think about it.

If you’ve nothing to add to your defense, then post about something else. You’re not the only one being talked about and this seems to me like an excuse to lurk.

jeez... i have to explain like every little thing. i swear i'm not going to say anything for a while. I'm not even going to check the thread... la lala la laaaa....

Now it gets worse.

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Unvote: All.

You’re not lynched yet. Giving up does not help your case, and if you are a townie then it doesn’t help the town win.

I’m not voting

My views on this are wholeheartedly in accordance with the following post:

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

…apart from the me voting MoS bit, which I am not and don’t feel is necessary yet. If MoS continues to refuse to vote, that opinion will change.

Any day where the King is scum is likely a lost day anyways. In that case you might as well point out why he is scum; maybe you can convince town to have such a scum test a hero claim or try to execute a likely partner.

I hadn’t thought of doing that in a scum-king situation, but I’m glad you did.

Good thing I’m not scum this game, like last time (this is paraphrased)

FoS: Petroleumjelly

No need to keep letting us know. It sounds like you’re anxious.

Urgh.

Vote: MBL, box, pablito

I have not read the first kingmaker.
I do not have cases against these people.
I do not know whether I will be building cases.
I play by gut.

Wake me up when September ends.

And yes, I'm reading.
Or attempting.
Skimming?

Urgh.

Is Phoebus always like this? I found this…strange.

So we have MoS saying he won't vote, but his suspicions will be laid out in full and we should take note of his words rather than his voting pattern. Then, on the other hand, we have Phoebus saying he plays by gut and may not bother making cases against people, leaving only his votes to indicate his thoughts.

That's quite a tag-team.

Vote: Mert

for trying to tie two players together, however subtly.

[spectrumvoid]

I'm a little confused on who to comment on at the moment, since there're so many of us, and so many accusations + votes. King can you do a list?

I'm just going to comment on what I think were the more imortant ones.

I agree with everything said in the above post of CDB's about box and what Ameliaslay said about him in 181, so my vote on him stays.

@box: Oh. I thought kingmaker and heros weren't townies.

MBL: It's hard to do metagaming in mafia, unless Vaughn ALWAYS lurks when he's mafia and is active when he's pro-town. He could just be adopting a different playstyle. Hence, I don't buy what you said post 179. (Also referred to MMOS post 184).

@Twomz: No lingering questions. But thanks for asking.

About the PJ issue. While I don't think his comments that he's town this game are that scummy, I'm worried that the people who poked at it are using it as an excuse to accuse him.

[Mert]

Vote: Mert

for trying to tie two players together, however subtly.

I wasn't trying to tie them together so much as point out that their respective attitudes would be a pain for the town. I was more indicating that the two extremes are bad for the town and that the middleground is where I think it'd be best for people to be.

Can see how it'd look like I was marrying the two together though, just know that it wasn't my intention.