NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Plessiez]

It's day 1. Deadline for the day is March 28th, 21:59 UTC. That's (expired on 2014-03-28 17:59:48).

Vote Count 1.4

Doc Holliday [5 votes] (DeasVail, talah, Mister Rogers, bjc, Luca Blight)
bjc [3 votes] (ThAdmiral, Peregrine V, Damon_Gant)
Damon_Gant [2 votes] (4nxi3ty, SnowStorm)
talah [2 votes] (Doc Holliday, mastin2)
PeregrineV [2 votes] (Yates, RachMarie)
ThAdmiral [1 vote] (Zdenek)
Mister Rogers [1 vote] (BipolarChemist)

4 players are not voting

: {aptil, BBmolla, Nero Cain, Smudger}

With

20

players alive it takes

11

votes to lynch somebody or to go to night.

V/LA

Yates is V/LA until March 17th.
Nero Cain is V/LA until March 19th.

[Mister Rogers]

OMGOSH. Mastin is voting Talah with his SCUMREAD.

[Mister Rogers]

[ThAdmiral]

1) Thad -- You are a very experienced player. Can you please explain to me why you are taking BJC's post so literally? If I didn't know it was you, I would think I was reading a low experience player.

Ok here's where I'm at.

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

Questions for you:
a) who are you an alt of?
b) why were you not in my neighbourhood mafia game? Would have been a perfect fit (although the game sort of sucked).

[Damon_Gant]

Horrible. First off, since when was this a gambit?
Second, why is something like that posted in RVS even taken seriously?

This wasn't addressed to me but it seems to make sense for me to give my answer to these two points.

First: You claimed scum. Whether this was some ill-informed RVS joke or not, on some level this was a gambit, even if the goal was just attention.

Second: If nothing in the RVS was taken seriously, then we would remain permanently in the RVS. Nothing we do is truly random. There is a motive behind every statement posted. It is only by analysing this that we are able to phase out of RVS.

My contention is that so far out of everything said here your post is the most blatantly anti-town. At this early stage in the game, where there's not the greatest deal to go on, that is more than enough for you to be a good place for my vote.

People's reaction to my first post has been stupid. Mastin's in particular seems like he just has a problem with just the way that I weighed my words. It's how I post - particularly if I'm making a post with quite a simple and concise point. Indeed, just in general, I don't find Mastin's reads to be very good. The certainty in them is obviously part of his meta, but I do disagree with pretty much all of it. I'm not sure if posting such disagreeable reads is part of his meta! I don't have any particularly strong feelings on his proposal for a limit of posting - but as others do, I guess that's not happening.

Also, Peregrine's comment about BBMolla replacing out is unhelpful.

I'll note that I'm now 100% read and up to date here. Admittedly I was not when I made my first post, as I was in a bit of a rush to make it just in case it was my only opportunity to post for ~36 hours.

[Mister Rogers]

Questions for you:
a) who are you an alt of?
b) why were you not in my neighbourhood mafia game? Would have been a perfect fit (although the game sort of sucked).

Well, I'm not really an alt of anyone but I have been playing Mafia for years on various sites. There is an account on this site (that I thought was lost but apparently its still here) called Lamont_Cranston.

lol. I think I have heard of this game being mentioned many times; I just started playing Mafia again and well, I only play 1 game at a time and so, I guess I just missed it. It must of been pretty cool.

[Mister Rogers]

@Thad: Well I guess the point is that my instinctual response is to simply ignore it and treat it as null and I have far less experience than you do.

Can you show me games where this has happened before and you reacted the same way?

[mastin2]

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

2) Mastin -- A) How does Thad get a townread for his BJC vote?

Because that post was insanely town. He had fun, he did some prodding, he was doing analysis, and you could tell it came from a town player cruising, rather than a scum player coasting. There was stuff in there. Good stuff.

B) How does Aptil get a townread for throwing around opinions but no vote for his scum suspect? I mean how on its face does that make him town??

Because I've had experience with aptil, and combining my experience with him and the fact that it was the way he voiced his opinion, and you've got a mindset which is solidly, SOLIDLY town.

@Mastin: Please add to that C) How does Luca get a townread for a naked Doc vote?????????????

Because the naked Doc vote was an insanely town move?

OMGOSH. Mastin is voting Talah with his SCUMREAD.

Read my stance on Doc again.

Doc, scummy. Talah, scum. Doc could be scum. Talah

is

scum. Also, even if scum, there is such a thing as bussing. Especially in the RVS.

That said, while talah's scum...
VOTE: Damon Gant.
...My scumread here is much, much stronger.

[talah]

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither. You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

(Which is super interesting considering you've just voted someone else even though you think I'm

definitely

scum).

Are you interested in why I think it's multi-scum based on your one post? Because I have a clear though process on that, too.

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

Let me address this first: "Hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty."

Your words. Can you point out instances of this, or are you happy to simply to cast a huge aspersion on my character without explaining your own thinking?

Secondly - how are you asserting that *I* think that it's town vs scum when I clearly implied that I am tending to think that Mister and I is town versus town?

I'm oh so happy to spend the time requoting myself and yourself in context if you disagree that that was my indication.

Disappointed that you're scum this game :(

VOTE: mastin2

[mastin2]

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

Yeahno. You're not a player who can read me, and attempting to pretend you are makes you scum.

In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*.

And you not doing so now is a problem on your end, not mine. My reads? Make sense. Yours? Don't.

I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither.

*points to previous vote*

You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

And your reaction solidified it. My vote on you? Weak gut read at first. I bolded it rather than using vote tags for dang-good reason. I didn't like what you entered with. I voted you. And now? Now, you're doing this.

Can you point out instances of this, or are you happy to simply to cast a huge aspersion on my character without explaining your own thinking?

And you continue to be scum. If you knew me half as well as you're pretending? You'd already know I have trouble explaining these things. In theory, yes, I can. Yes, I may try. But no, it won't be a perfect explanation, because the words are difficult to verbalize.

[DeasVail]

So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Why do you think this could potentially happen?

Yeahno. You're not a player who can read me,

What makes you say this about talah?

Current scumreads in no particular order:

Doc Holliday
Aptil
ThAdmiral

There might be 1 or 2 more, I don't know.

[Mister Rogers]

I'm not completely caught up or anything, but I just want to say that I learned about scum hunting the RVS from the Mastin School; i.e. I read the game where you lost your Mastin Mastin, Mastin and ever since I have tried to follow that philosophy as a guiding light. I feel hugely complimented that you agree on my RVS evaluation on Talah (I cannot yet comment on your stated follow-up analysis) but the 3 reads I mentioned feel terribly off to me and I feel myself agreeing with Talah here.

[talah]

Your entry reads this game are utter shit. Unless you're prepared to back them up where a direct question is asked, they're inauthentic.

This much I know is true.

I also know that I have played precisely *one* scumgame which I'm happy to link if you're not aware of it, and that you've played *many*, written articles, talked about scum agendas. I know you a bit better than you think, especially after Time: The Distortion.

Why didn't you *try* to form a read on me? Are you basing your read one one post and butthurt because I called you scum from your entrance? Is that a mastin reason to have a scumread?

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience. This personal distancing is troubling to me.

Ed: ^@mastin

[talah]

So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Why do you think this could potentially happen?

Why do I think what could happen?

Agree with your tentative scumreads except for Admiral at this stage. Also surprised Smudger hasn't turned up yet. Rach leans Town. I'll give a lovely reads-spam in the next day or two.

What are your thoughts on mastin so far? I'm not asking you to pick a side, just interested.

[mastin2]

Unless you're prepared to back them up where a direct question is asked, they're inauthentic.

Like hell they are. As I said, if you're so much as half as familiar as you claim to be with my meta, you'd know: scum-me can justify literally any read

specifically because they're faked

. Rather, because a scum me already knows the answer, I can fill in the gaps much more effectively, to present a clearer train of thought. So much so, that literally every single game where I was logically in the superior was a scumgame, and essentially every "guys, just...trust me, okay?" game is town.

Why didn't you *try* to form a read on me?

I did. It was a bad one. See here? The original post?

Your entrance to this game is not genuine.

*yawn* Actually I know more folks playing here than I realised, so -general hello- and down to business.
@Mister, not genuine

how

?

Vote: talah

.
(Rogers is town.)

Where do I call you scum? I call Damon scum. I even call Doc likely scum. Where do I call you scum in there? Do I? No. I don't. Because I found your entrance to be scummy, and voted you for it, to see how you reacted. Your reaction? To OMGUS-suspect me and toss out BS about my play that simply isn't true.

Are you basing your read because I called you scum from your entrance? Is that a mastin reason to have a scumread?

Given my reputation?

Hell. Yes.

Scumreading me for my entrance is enough of a reason to be suspicious of someone else.
(...
...The irony does not escape me.)

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown?

For starters?
1: There's more than one scum in the game.
2: I AM willing to hand out benefit of the doubt some times (see above, on the irony bit), and
3: My scumread on Damn is much stronger than my scumread on you (even though my scumread on you is far from weak).

Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case".

Of course I'm an excellent orator; that's why my scumplay is as good as it is. Seriously, every scum win of mine is through creating a narrative, painting the picture that I want it to. No, I am most certainly NOT a good orator as town, because I don't have the whole picture. Just fragments of it that I struggle to piece together. And you're presenting my play as if I've put no effort into that, when I already have. It's right there, in my posting.

[BipolarChemist]

Yo.

I have a proposal: larges these days have exploded in length. I am proposing we limit posts per person to be five a day, to see if we can get the shortest recent large game.

This is just...no. No. Stop it.

Mr. Rogers is a cutie pie thus far! (also seemingly town)

VOTE: mastin

Your posts annoy me. Please make them not, thx.

[RachMarie]

how the heck do you have me leaning town when I have barely posted Talah?

[BipolarChemist]

how the heck do you have me leaning town when I have barely posted Talah?

Prolly cuz posts like this. I'm townreading you pretty hard right now, Rachy.

[Damon_Gant]

Mastin's play continues to be very bleh. Giving garbage reads, and now trying to spoonfeed us what his meta is. That's not going to work - when I have time tonight I'll be looking at Mastin's meta for myself. It does need doing, because of the unorthodox playstyle - but I'm not going to be told by the player himself what his meta is, and essentially that his meta this game corresponds with his meta for town.

[ThAdmiral]

Well, I'm not really an alt of anyone but I have been playing Mafia for years on various sites. There is an account on this site (that I thought was lost but apparently its still here) called Lamont_Cranston.

Oh yes, my foggy memory banks are conjuring up vague recollections of a player with just such a name.

lol. I think I have heard of this game being mentioned many times; I just started playing Mafia again and well, I only play 1 game at a time and so, I guess I just missed it. It must of been pretty cool.

It was cool but sort of a failure from a design standpoint ( ). Mafia were a bit op.

@Thad: Well I guess the point is that my instinctual response is to simply ignore it and treat it as null and I have far less experience than you do.

Can you show me games where this has happened before and you reacted the same way?

I sort of have a rule where I don't provide links for my own meta (check my sig). I'm sure if you went looking, however, you would find me reacting in a very similar way in other games.

Are you interested in why I think it's multi-scum based on your one post? Because I have a clear though process on that, too.

Well I'm certainly interested.

Doc, scummy. Talah, scum. Doc could be scum. Talah

is

scum. Also, even if scum, there is such a thing as bussing. Especially in the RVS.

That said, while talah's scum...
VOTE: Damon Gant.
...My scumread here is much, much stronger.

You're going to have to explain the whole "Talah

is

scum" but "My scumread here (damon gant) is much, much stronger".

[4nxi3ty]

"Too early to tell" but you'll vote him anyway?

Should I be holding my vote back?

Giving garbage reads, and now trying to spoonfeed us what his meta is.

pretty sure it's not spoonfeeding when talah brings up mastin's meta and he responds in kind - if the meta was brought up unprompted, you might have a point. Which reads were garbage and why?

[aptil]

Doc's RVS vote was bad and the vote by Deas was something i would have done too .

But his posts afterwards read town to me .

Which posts how/why etc?

His 2nd and 3rd post .

Ok...

What did you like in particular about his 3rd post?

His assessment of bjc's post . Either scum or town worth not listening to . He sticks with his vote instead of going to the other person . At this point Talah had given no reason for anybody to unvote him and doc stuck to that . He is still voting Talah and not hopped on the bjc wagon .

.

Bjc already looks like he is going to be a lynch bait here .

Talah is bad all over . He has one decent post explaining his decisions otherwise he has been bad all over .

So if I've had a bunch of 'bad' posts and one 'decent' post what's your opinion? Was the 'decent' post enough to invalidate all of the 'bad' posts, or are you weighing my alignment only numerically on your opinion of what posts are 'bad' or 'decent'?

Also I left the bjc thing in because lynchbait can only be town, right? So you're townreading bjc? Why?

No it wasn't . Yes it comes down to the number of posts which make sense to me from a town prospect . The number from your post count does matter .

B) How does Aptil get a townread for throwing around opinions but no vote for his scum suspect? I mean how on its face does that make him town??

If you are not voting anybody , that makes you scum ?

Current scumreads in no particular order:
Aptil

Please explain .

[SnowStorm]

I kinda like bjc's #82. I like the tone and his points against Doc and Peregrine.

1) Thad -- You are a very experienced player. Can you please explain to me why you are taking BJC's post so literally? If I didn't know it was you, I would think I was reading a low experience player.

Ok here's where I'm at.

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

Do you actually suspect bjc? If so, why? The only reason I find for your vote on him is that you don't like that he claimed scum.

Horrible. First off, since when was this a gambit?
Second, why is something like that posted in RVS even taken seriously?

[...]
My contention is that so far out of everything said here your post is the most blatantly anti-town. At this early stage in the game, where there's not the greatest deal to go on, that is more than enough for you to be a good place for my vote.
[...]

"Your joke was anti-town, therefore you're scum". This is scum logic. Damon is ignoring everything that's happened in the game so far to focus on something alignment irrelevant (unless bjc has a habit of claiming scum when he is scum, then it is certainly relevant). He also feels the need to point out how it is still OK to pursue that. On his first post his excuse was that everything else was clouding his vision; now he says there's not much to go on because the game is still at an early stage. Come on, I'm not saying there's plenty of relevant stuff going on, but anything is more relevant than a bad RVS joke.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek! I feel that our reads are similar (I can't say I'm feeling Damon-scum yet though), but you're scumreading me and that's not very good, so I'll kindly ask you to stop.

No problem DV!

I have a proposal: larges these days have exploded in length. I am proposing we limit posts per person to be five a day, to see if we can get the shortest recent large game.

No way mastin. (But I don't mind wagonning people and lynching someone and not drawing day one out to 100 pages for instance.)

Can you explain why you're white-knighting bjc so much?

I don't think I'm white-knighting him. I mean I don't have a take on him yet. I do think that the people voting him over claiming scum are somewhat scummy - you for trying to dodge the accusation of taking the bait by making light of it in your post, and Gant for voting him while only saying that he found his post peculiar, plus making out of game excuses.

I don't like that you are accusing me of white-knighting someone you're voting.

[Zdenek]

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

This looks good.