Space Monkey Mafia: GAME OVER!

[Zindaras]

Lemme throw out a theory here. The Mafia didn't know MBL was one of their team. We've consequently only seen one kill (as far as you can call two nights in a row consequently). Bird, scum, put MBL at Lynch-1. I don't think that wagon would've happened if the scum knew MBL was one of them.

I am very much suspicious of PJ right now, due to the situations surrounding the bird lynch, but I'm not going to vote him right now. He's already at 5 votes, and with 8 to lynch, I don't want him to be quicklynched.

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: PJ

Numbah 6

[Glork]

What gets me about Ibby isn't even the move from MBL to Bird; it's the way in which she attacked me afterwards. I've had a scumtell on Ibby for a while that when she's scum, she gets very tunnel-visioned on one or two people, to the point where she looks for excuses to continue voting/attacking them. I definitely got that vibe from her when she attacked me early in D1. Yesterday, PJ voiced suspicions against four people: Bird, Nightson, Klebian, and inHim. He voted Klebian and Nightson, gave a half-hearted explanation why he chose them over either of the other two, and pretty much ignored the rest of the situation.

Zindie -- Part of me doubts that the scum didn't know that MBL was one of them. If they did (i.e., if MBL had a traditional Traitor role), targeting him normally recruits him into the Mafia; it doesn't kill him. My guess is that a (very awesome and intelligent) Vigilante decided to nail him overnight. Personally, I feel that it was pretty necessary to get the alignment on either MBL or me. We got into a pretty extended debate, and both MBL and I were right in the middle of things. Truth be told, I expected to be dead in the morning based on the fact that Bird came up scum. And if MBL had died as town, I probably would be the one with a noose practically around my neck. But I don't think that the mafia killed him.
The lack of a kill on a pro-town player is pretty difficult to explain at this point. Nurse, Replacement/Backup, Roleblocker... there's really no way to tell. Let's just chalk it up to good fortune and focus on what we can figure out right now.




By the way, I call hammer on PJ. But I suppose we should let him defend himself first, or something. <.<
Also, this is one of the wagoniest towns that I have ever seen. It reminds me vaguely of Mafia 49 over in NY.

[petroleumjelly]

For crying out loud – you people need to read my posts in context. And actually

read

this post, I don’t write them solely for my own amusement.

Since I know you are all skimmers, I'll high-light a few things in blue.

I replaced into the game two days before deadline: I was only able to give the game about one read through. What I saw was a bandwagon on MBL go to lynch -1 at the start of day, and after reading through MBL’s posts, I didn’t find him very scummy. With that line of thinking, I tried to look for the worst people who jumped on his wagon, as I already mentioned in Post 280. For me, those people were Bird1111, Glork, and InHimShallIBe.

Oh, and I just reviewed PJ's posts. In summary, "Hmmm... I'm suspicious of bird, and he has a big bandwagon, but, nah... I won't vote for him."

You claim to have read my posts, but:

If there are no other reasonable alternatives by Friday morning, I may indeed vote Bird1111, but I would rather poke at some other people while I still have the chance.

Considering I had just replaced into the game, I wanted to poke at new people before deadline came.

I would have voted for Bird1111 if the alternative was No-Lynch, since there are very few situations where I would agree with a No-Lynch.

I was concerned with the Bird1111-wagon (as I mentioned at least twice yesterday) because ¾ of my top suspects [Nightson, Klebian, and InHimShallIBe] were

all

voting for the 4th suspect. The bandwagon itself smelled of opportunistic scum, so far as I was concerned, so although I agreed Bird1111 did not look very good, I

also

did not like the composition of his bandwagon.

I can support a PJ wagon also. As well as what people have mentioned about PJ, I also found some of Ibaesha's posts scummy; she voted for MBL (not so bad), then moved to bird when MBL was at -1 (deflecting a bandwagon from a strong member of the scum to a weaker member of the scum), then started going after Glork/Nightson.

Sure, PJ could be something. As I said, Ibby shifted from MBL to Bird. If you think she would double-distance like that, I'm fine with a PJ vote.

Try putting yourself in Ibaesha’s shoes for a moment before you try to construe her actions into being something they are not. Ibby and I seem to think very much alike much of the time, so I have no problems whatsoever ‘defending’ her actions yesterday.

1.) Firstly, the game begins with eight votes on MBL, and for no discernable reason [other than for the sake of bandwagoning]. She finds it funny, but then Glork shouts “HAMMAH HAMMAH!”. This is wrong on multiple counts:

->

a.

There are multiple newer players in the forum who might have thought Glork was being serious (which he even seems to imply he

was

)
->

b.

There are some experienced players who might have hammered MBL just for the heck of it

->

c.

If “a” or “b”, the day would have had

zero

discussion, and there would have been practically no information to work off while going into Night Two and even Day Two.

So what does Ibby do? She backs off the wagon, taking away the opportunity for somebody to hammer and prematurely end Day One. And that’s

exactly

what I would do. I am super surprised that people are saying Ibby was trying to “deflect the wagon”. Ibby had three choices.

Read the following 3 points

:

->

a.

Leave her vote on MBL, therefore allowing him to stay at Lynch -1 territory. This would be awful, awful play, and I would find Ibby

more

suspicious if she had surreptitiously tried to silently keep her vote on somebody so close to lynch.
->

b.

She can unvote MBL, so as to preempt a hammering vote, and do nothing more.

This would be very un-Ibbylike

. When Ibby unvotes somebody, she wants to make sure her vote is

on somebody else

, so she can still directly influence the game and help hunt for scum. If Ibby had simply unvoted and not revoted, I would find Ibby

more

suspicious.
->

c.

She can unvote MBL,

and

present an alternative vote by searching for the worst person in the game up to that point. I agree with her that the worst player at that point in time was Bird1111 for placing MBl at lynch -1.

I still think this was her most optimal move possible as town

.

Not only did Ibaesha successfully make sure Day One did not end prematurely, but she in no way “kept the spotlight” off of MBL (thereby assuring he would not be able to slide under the radar), but also fingered a second scum by voting for Bird1111

. Calling that “scummy” is absolutely preposterous.

Furthermore, it is noteworthy to look at the voting pattern on MBL, as well as votes made after MBL had reached 8 votes:

Twito votes MrBuddyLee (1)
Ibaesha votes MrBuddyLee (2)
Glork votes MrBuddyLee (3)
Fritzler votes MrBuddyLee (4)
Klebian votes MrBuddyLee (5)
Nightson votes MrBuddyLee (6)
Cogito Ergo Sum unvotes Phoebus (2) and votes MrBuddyLee (7)
Bird1111 unvotes Bogre (0) and votes MrBuddyLee ( 8 )

Ibaesha unvotes MrBuddyLee (7) and votes Bird1111 (1)

InHimShallIBe votes MrBuddyLee ( 8 )
Save the Dragons unvotes Phoebus (1) and votes Glork (2)

Glork unvotes MrBuddyLee (7) and votes Bogre (1)

Save the Dragons unvotes Glork (1) and votes Bird1111 (2)

A number of things happened.

1.) Ibaesha (correctly) unvoted, and managed to finger a second scum, Bird1111.
2.) InHimShallIBe replaced the lynch -1 vote.
3.) Save the Dragons votes for Glork (funny how nobody says

this

is an attempt at “deflection”).

4.) Glork was the second person (after Ibaesha) to take MBL out of the hammering range,

after which people start unvoting MBL

. It was a combination of Glork and Ibaesha who managed to take the wagon off of MBL.

5.) Save the Dragons unvotes Glork to add a second vote to Bird1111 (again, nobody has tried calling this a “deflection” vote either, so I have noticed).

Once again: if Ibby had not "deflected" the wagon off of MBL, he would have stayed at eight votes indefinitely until hammered.

If Day One was going to continue, SOMEBODY was going to unvote MBL. Simply because it was Ibaesha, it does not make her (me) scum.

PPE:

What gets me about Ibby isn't even the move from MBL to Bird; it's the way in which she attacked me afterwards. I've had a scumtell on Ibby for a while that when she's scum, she gets very tunnel-visioned on one or two people, to the point where she looks for excuses to continue voting/attacking them. I definitely got that vibe from her when she attacked me early in D1.

You really

aren’t

paying attention to this game. Try actually looking at Ibby’s posts instead of

saying

you’ve looked at Ibby’s posts.

Ibby only had 12 posts, and in those twelve posts, she managed to finger or vote for:
1.) MrBuddyLee
2.) Bird1111
3.) klebian
4.) Glork
5.) Nightson

That is hardly what I call “tunnel vision”. Try comparing Ibby’s posts to InHim’s posts. Seriously. Click the “view all posts” function and tell me what you see. Ibby was by no means focusing on one person. Simply because she

remained suspicious of one person

, that does not mean she was

focusing on one person

.

Yesterday, PJ voiced suspicions against four people: Bird, Nightson, Klebian, and inHim. He voted Klebian and Nightson, gave a half-hearted explanation why he chose them over either of the other two, and pretty much ignored the rest of the situation.

Yesterday, I only had about one or two real-life days to do anything. I was not “ignoring the situation”; I was very much aware of the situation. I was willing to hammer Bird1111 if it looked like the alternative was No-Lynch. There was pretty much no way I could have ever successfully got a competing wagon out of Nightson had I tried, and to think I would seriously try to “stop” the Bird1111 by employing such a weak strategy is bogus. I believe I have covered my explanation of this (so far as it is ‘necessary’) throughout this post.

As it is, MBL turning up scum invalidates a few of my suspicions from Day One, so I will clearly have to read through the game again with this new information in mind when I can find time later.

[Zindaras]

I need to reevaluate this game, PJ makes points, and I need to reread to see if they're good.

[Thok]

Try putting yourself in Ibaesha’s shoes for a moment before you try to construe her actions into being something they are not. Ibby and I seem to think very much alike much of the time, so I have no problems whatsoever ‘defending’ her actions yesterday.

1.) Firstly, the game begins with eight votes on MBL, and for no discernable reason [other than for the sake of bandwagoning]. She finds it funny, but then Glork shouts “HAMMAH HAMMAH!”. This is wrong on multiple counts:

From what I can tell, the MBL wagon dated back to a bunch of posts that disappeared when the first crash happened and made the game disappear. I don't know the full details (since I obviously haven't read any of the posts that disappeared before the crash happened), but the MBL wagon was not out of nowhere.

[petroleumjelly]

Try putting yourself in Ibaesha’s shoes for a moment before you try to construe her actions into being something they are not. Ibby and I seem to think very much alike much of the time, so I have no problems whatsoever ‘defending’ her actions yesterday.

1.) Firstly, the game begins with eight votes on MBL, and for no discernable reason [other than for the sake of bandwagoning]. She finds it funny, but then Glork shouts “HAMMAH HAMMAH!”. This is wrong on multiple counts:

From what I can tell, the MBL wagon dated back to a bunch of posts that disappeared when the first crash happened and made the game disappear. I don't know the full details (since I obviously haven't read any of the posts that disappeared before the crash happened), but the MBL wagon was not out of nowhere.

From what I can remember, even before the crash, the wagon on MBL didn't have an extraordinarily strong basis.

If somebody would like to explain the MBL-wagon Day One, I would appreciate it, but from what I saw, there was no basis whatsoever.

[klebian]

You're correct. There was no basis; it got a miniwagon of 3, then people started voting on until we crashed. That's how I remember it, at any rate.

[Twito]

Oh, and I just reviewed PJ's posts. In summary, "Hmmm... I'm suspicious of bird, and he has a big bandwagon, but, nah... I won't vote for him."

You claim to have read my posts, but:

If there are no other reasonable alternatives by Friday morning, I may indeed vote Bird1111, but I would rather poke at some other people while I still have the chance.

Looks like he is just reasoning his vote..

Vote: InHim

Try putting yourself in Ibaesha’s shoes for a moment before you try to construe her actions into being something they are not. Ibby and I seem to think very much alike much of the time, so I have no problems whatsoever ‘defending’ her actions yesterday.

1.) Firstly, the game begins with eight votes on MBL, and for no discernable reason [other than for the sake of bandwagoning]. She finds it funny, but then Glork shouts “HAMMAH HAMMAH!”. This is wrong on multiple counts:

From what I can tell, the MBL wagon dated back to a bunch of posts that disappeared when the first crash happened and made the game disappear. I don't know the full details (since I obviously haven't read any of the posts that disappeared before the crash happened), but the MBL wagon was not out of nowhere.

I don't remember this basis your talking about I'm pretty sure there was non.

[Glork]

Yeah, we pretty much arbitrarily decided MBL was scum last time around. The wagon this time around came a heck of a lot quicker, but it wasn't really founded last time.


I've sortof read PJ's response, and there are a couple of things I want to which I'd like to respond, but it'll have to wait until later in the week.

[inHimshallibe]

Saying and doing are different things. I don't care how much PJ said he would have voted for bird, the fact remains that he didn't.

In fact, looking at your quote, you say, "I may indeed"... ha, that's not easy to wriggle out of...

Yeah, MBL was the flavor of Day 1. At least, that's how I saw it. I think I spelled out the reasons that I was so adamant in seeing his lynch to completion.

[petroleumjelly]

A few questions for you, InHim:

1.) Why should I specifically have voted Bird1111? He was going to be lynched pretty much whatever happened: if my vote was necessary to make sure the town didn't end up with a No-Lynch, I would have moved it there. As it happens, my vote was not necessary.

2.) What "advantage" would I gain by not voting Bird1111 if he were my scum partner? (WIFOM, yeah, yeah, but I want to see InHim's answer).

3.) Do you honestly think I would say I would vote Bird1111 if it was necessary, but then

refuse

to do so if it became clear that nobody else was going to hammer? As town or as scum, that would be incredibly stupid.

[Save The Dragons]

Unvote

This wagony thing is bullshit, fun, and helpful all at the same time.

That said, I'm not liking the reasons on PJ.

I think Inhim is a good target.

both your desires not to kill our winged scumfriend are noted.

Yup.

Vote: Inhim

[Fritzler]

vote: inhim

[Glork]

Saying and doing are different things. I don't care how much PJ said he would have voted for bird, the fact remains that he didn't.

In fact, looking at your quote, you say, "I may indeed"... ha, that's not easy to wriggle out of...

That's a little dumb. I also said that I would hammer if necessary come near-deadline, and I think Zindaras made a similar comment when he moved to Bird. Not everyone can live up to their "I'll hammer if I need to." Just because someone *else* got there first is not a legitimate reason to be pressuring PJ.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

petroleumjelly: 4 (CES, inHimshallibe, Thok, dahen)
inHimshallibe: 3 (Twito, STD, Fritzler)

Eight to throw someone out of the airlock.

[Zindaras]

Zindie -- Part of me doubts that the scum didn't know that MBL was one of them. If they did (i.e., if MBL had a traditional Traitor role), targeting him normally recruits him into the Mafia; it doesn't kill him.

Doesn't Stoofer have a bit of a reputation for making "different" games? I faintly remember you something like that to me.

The lack of a kill on a pro-town player is pretty difficult to explain at this point. Nurse, Replacement/Backup, Roleblocker... there's really no way to tell. Let's just chalk it up to good fortune and focus on what we can figure out right now.

Hmm, I personally think my theory is a bit more likely. But, as you say, let's work with what we have.

Re-read pending.

[Fritzler]

hey stoof, the front post says there's 16 peeps here

-thanks - Stoofer

[Zindaras]

As I said when I made the vote, the only reason why I voted bird was because we would've gotten a no lynch otherwise, and a lynch is always better than a no lynch.

Some things I've noticed:

Post 25: Ibby switches from MBL to bird. Assuming my theory is incorrect, for her to be scum, she would've had to vote fellow scum to begin with, then try to deflect the wagon into other scum. Something I find unlikely. There were other people to deflect the wagon to. I don't think Ibby's scum.

Post 30: inHim tries to get an MBL lynch anyway.

Post 33: Glork says it's just his playstyle. Well, obviously. The fact that Glork cried for MBL's hammah is not a tell at all. I can see him doing it from either side, even with the knowledge that MBL was scum.

Post 38-39: MBL zones in on klebian.

Post 49: StD calls bird out for unvoting.

Post 57: inHim really wants MBL dead...

Post 84: Twomz promises a more in-depth analysis.

Post 114: inHim insists Glork is scum.

Post 130: bird doesn't get why people are attacking Nightson and Glork.

Post 164: bird still doesn't get why people are attacking Glork.

Post 186: Pooky checks in?

Post 188: This post rubs me an entirely wrong way.

Post 233: Glork doesn't think bird is scum.

There's way too much conflict here. MBL and bird were pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum, and I didn't see any way in which they were both scum.

But they were.

I'm not liking Twomz at all, personally. Twomz and inHim.

Looking at Twomz's posts, his suspicions were MBL and Glork. I'm not sure if Masterchief has even checked in, ever. So I'm going to

Vote: Masterchief

for the time being, and

FoS: inHim

.

[inHimshallibe]

1.) Why should I specifically have voted Bird1111?

You listed him as a suspect and bird had the most votes on him as we were nearing an all-or-nothing deadline rule. No other candidates were close, if I remember correctly.

He was going to be lynched pretty much whatever happened:

There's no way to guarantee this, and this is a classic way for scum to wriggle out of their "Townlike" voting responsibilities.

if my vote was necessary to make sure the town didn't end up with a No-Lynch, I would have moved it there. As it happens, my vote was not necessary.

Again, like I posted before, saying and doing are different things.

2.) What "advantage" would I gain by not voting Bird1111 if he were my scum partner? (WIFOM, yeah, yeah, but I want to see InHim's answer).

bird would still be alive, and therefore more useful to your scum group than if he were dead. Town would have to waste a Day just to get back to lynching bird, therefore giving the scum a near free pass and extra Night. Even better, a cop might have thought to investigate bird, and that would have been a wasted investigation if the Town were going to try and lynch bird again. It may have even exposed the cop if he couldn't keep his results to himself.

3.) Do you honestly think I would say I would vote Bird1111 if it was necessary, but then

refuse

to do so if it became clear that nobody else was going to hammer?

This makes no sense to me as an argument, because why would you announce that you were refusing to hammer?

As town or as scum, that would be incredibly stupid.

Agreed, announcing a refusal to hammer is dumb, but unless there was proof that you were on the forums at that time, it'd be too easy to come up with a multitude of excuses why you didn't come in and hammer. Also, I'll say that it's a scum MO to be confident that fear of a No Lynch would drive a Townsperson to do the busing for you. And, hey, if no one comes, pick an excuse and enjoy the benefits of having your scummate alive for a bit longer.

Saying and doing are different things. I don't care how much PJ said he would have voted for bird, the fact remains that he didn't.

In fact, looking at your quote, you say, "I may indeed"... ha, that's not easy to wriggle out of...

That's a little dumb. I also said that I would hammer if necessary come near-deadline, and I think Zindaras made a similar comment when he moved to Bird. Not everyone can live up to their "I'll hammer if I need to." Just because someone *else* got there first is not a legitimate reason to be pressuring PJ.

You weren't pointing a finger at bird, though, Glork. Also, your point about Zindaras I don't understand if he moved his vote to bird.

[klebian]

<snip>bird would still be alive, and therefore more useful to your scum group than if he were dead. Town would have to waste a Day just to get back to lynching bird, therefore giving the scum a near free pass and extra Night. Even better, a cop might have thought to investigate bird, and that would have been a wasted investigation if the Town were going to try and lynch bird again. It may have even exposed the cop if he couldn't keep his results to himself. <snip>

You're trying to blame the possibility of a cop exposing himself over a person we were going to lynch the next day anyway on him? The hammer was going to happen. You can say that this is not known at the time, but there was no evidence supporting bird, and if some evidence did turn up, many people would unvote, and you wouldn't be able to blame pj for our having the opportunity to not lynch him. That means that any decent innocent

would

hammer because it had already been reiterated that no lynch is worse than lynch a scummy person who's not been posting.

If a cop had decided to investigate bird, he might have decided to reveal his results the next day... I don't agree with this in entirety. There aren't many cops who won't keep their results to themselves unless they are in a good position to reveal. You're assuming that the cop could be dumb enough to investigate someone we were trying to lynch but failed due to deadline, and then even reveal results the next day, which he wouldn't have got the opportunity to do, most likely, as bird would've been wagoned again.

The case for inhim is stronger than the case for pj. I don't like inhim's attacks on pj.

Vote: Inhim

[Zindaras]

I'm not against hammering inHim, so I think he should claim by now.

[Glork]

He's still three from lynch. I don't think we need to concern ourselves with a claim just yet.


I finally finished my philosophy term paper (only 11 hours before it's due >.<)... so I'll get around to actually responding to PJ in full tomorrow. I also need to re-read the past day or two to see what I think of the most recent happenings.

[Zindaras]

Why am I confusing eight with six? >.<

Scratch that claim thing. I am willing to get rid of inHim though.

[inHimshallibe]

<snip>bird would still be alive, and therefore more useful to your scum group than if he were dead. Town would have to waste a Day just to get back to lynching bird, therefore giving the scum a near free pass and extra Night. Even better, a cop might have thought to investigate bird, and that would have been a wasted investigation if the Town were going to try and lynch bird again. It may have even exposed the cop if he couldn't keep his results to himself. <snip>

You're trying to blame the possibility of a cop exposing himself over a person we were going to lynch the next day anyway on him? The hammer was going to happen. You can say that this is not known at the time, but there was no evidence supporting bird, and if some evidence did turn up, many people would unvote, and you wouldn't be able to blame pj for our having the opportunity to not lynch him. That means that any decent innocent

would

hammer because it had already been reiterated that no lynch is worse than lynch a scummy person who's not been posting.

If a cop had decided to investigate bird, he might have decided to reveal his results the next day... I don't agree with this in entirety. There aren't many cops who won't keep their results to themselves unless they are in a good position to reveal. You're assuming that the cop could be dumb enough to investigate someone we were trying to lynch but failed due to deadline, and then even reveal results the next day, which he wouldn't have got the opportunity to do, most likely, as bird would've been wagoned again.

The case for inhim is stronger than the case for pj. I don't like inhim's attacks on pj. Vote: Inhim

No. Just... no. Could you please go back and look at the context - PJ asked what possible advantages there were for not voting against bird if they are scum together. I then listed possible advantages.

I am in no way laying any blame.

Do you see any blaming? No, it's just me answering a question.

And then you make assumptions for me. Again, did I say these things were going to happen? No, I was just answering a hypothetical question.

What do you not like about my attacks? What about them merits my vote?